Miss on newly rebuilt 292

[Jrappl]

Sorry this is so long, just trying to give all the info I can to get a solution.

I’ve got a miss I can’t figure out in a newly rebuilt 292 y-block, auto (aluminum case 2 speed) in a 59 Edsel. I’ve got it idling at about 575 in park and 480 in gear. The spec say idle in gear should be 450 but that’s too low right now. The idle is pretty good except every 3-4 seconds I get a miss. If I increase the engine speed quickly (in park) to about 2000 it goes up smoothly and strong without any problems but if I hold it at 2000 the miss is immediate and more apparent. I’ve run it for a couple hours total so far, including about 60 miles on the road around town. It accelerates strong (for a heavy 1959 2sp Edsel) and will run at 60 mph without problems but fuel usage seems to be very high – don’t know for sure but seems like around 8-10 mpg from gas gauge movement.

Engine was bored .030 over and crank cut 0.10 under by a trusted machine shop. I did the reassembly, I’ve done a few but this was my first y-block so I did use the factory shop manual for reference. I oil primed the engine using a drill. For the first startup I cranked it for about 5 seconds (nothing), waited a few seconds, cranked it again and it started right up (after 50 years!). It has never backfired. It starts and runs just not as good as it should. Oil pressure is running about 50 at idle and up to 80 as engine speed increases. I’m getting top end oil flow on both sides. Oil is running out of the overflow tubes on both rocker shafts.

I installed new main and rod bearings, new cam bearings (with original cam), new pistons, rings, and wrist pin bushings. New timing set (sprockets and chain) and I followed the shop manual for installation and counted pins several times! I did not have the valves machined but did clean and hand lap them and then installed new springs and retainers. Installed new rocker shafts also. The valve guides, rocker arms and push rods were good and reused. New oil pump, water pump, fuel pump. I’ve adjusted the valves using the shop manual and the 15 minute (90 degree) method, no difference.

I rebuilt the original 1959 Ford 2 bbl carb (48s for jets as called for in the shop manual), I also tried an early 70s Autolite 2100 (don’t know jetting) and it’s currently running on a new 2150 knockoff (Chinese) which is supposed to have 49s for jets. Seems to run best on the new carb but the miss is there on all carbs. I have it adjusted for max vacuum at idle and I’m getting 19-19.5”. The needle does jump a little between 19 and 19.5 but doesn’t drop below 19. There are no vacuum leaks that I can find and the high vacuum at idle seems to indicate there aren’t any.

I’m using the original distributor. I cleaned it up, checked for smooth movement and shaft play (none), checked vacuum advance for leaking (none) and installed a new condenser, points, rotor, cap, plug wires and plugs. I replaced the original coil with a 12v internal resistor Standard Motor UC15T and removed the external resistor from the circuit. I’ve tested the coil resistance and it’s within specs. I’ve also tested resistance of each plug wire and again they are in spec. I don’t see any cracks in the wires and no sparks watching it run in the dark.

Timing is set at 8 BTDC with the vacuum advance plugged at idle. The mechanical advance works and adds about 10-12 (could be 15, don’t remember) degrees as I increase speed. With the vacuum advance plugged in it looks like I get an additional 10-15 degrees and it moves smoothly. So with everything connected as I increase engine speed I get a total of about 35 degrees advance. It’s hard to tell exactly because the crank pulley only has marks for TDC, 10 BTDC and 20 BTDC. I did check the pulley for slipping but the pointer is right on TDC when the #1 piston is at the top.

Point dwell is at 28 at an idle but drops a little (22-24) as engine speed increases to about 2000 rpm.

After the last road run I pulled the plugs and did a compression test. Compression is good with 6 cylinders reading about 147 and 2 at 140. I don’t know why unless the rings on those two are taking longer to seat.
The plugs did not look good. They were darker than I thought they should be (too rich I guess) and 3 were wet with fuel. Funny thing is the porcelain tip on the plugs was only dark (carbon) on half the tip, the other half was tan. I’ve never seen that before and I’ve been messing with engines for 45 years!

I’m hoping someone has an idea why I’m getting this miss. Seems like my spark is not hot enough. I’m going to swap the coil for another just to rule out a bad brand new coil but I’m not holding my breath. Could it be the carb? But why would I get the same miss with 3 carbs I have tried?

[scicala]

Maybe check to make sure you're getting a strong blue spark that can jump a fair distance.
Also, since your dwell changed a little when you increased the RPM, check to make sure there isn't play in the distributor bushings.
Is it possible there could be one of the valves adjusted slightly too tight ?

Just throwing out thoughts as they pop in my head.

Sal

[KULTULZ]

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[Hot Rod Reverend]

It is hard to diagnose such things from afar, but you did a great job in outlining all the work you have done and what you are experiencing. My instincts tell me that this is an ignition problem - the above posts are great places to start, but if you are sure your valve timing and valve lash is correct then you should have compression in each cylinder up to snuff. (those readings above sound fine) You are obviously getting fuel. Your spark is way too weak from the spark plug readings you are getting - that's my vote. I will say this - trying to find quality ignition parts these days for points, condenser, etc, is very difficult. I have had friends that have purchased brand new parts such as these only to have them fail within 30 miles of use or just put out a weak spark. While many guys are running pointless ignitions these days, those that are running points look for NOS parts because of the lack of quality control.

[Jrappl]

Thanks for the replies. I think that the spark is not strong enough and will be focusing on ignition. I've checked valve lash several times and the valves are not too tight.

I did bypass the external resistor but also replaced the coil with one with an internal resistor so the points should see about the same voltage. The old coil tests ok with 1.4ohm resistance on the primary and about 6K on the secondary. New one with internal resistor tests at 3.3ohm primary and about 8K secondary. I will swap the old one back in just to test but it's 61+ years old so I may also try another new one just for kicks.

As far as I can tell the distributor is an original 1959. When I cleaned it I checked for play/slop in the bushings but didn't notice any. Car has 61K miles on it but was sitting for 45 years! That distributor was a real pain to get out of the block!

I purchased all ignition parts from Rock (coil, points, condenser, rotor, cap, plugs). It's all Standard Motor stuff that I have had good luck with in the past but have no idea where it was made. I do see they sell a UNITED MOTOR PRODUCTS CP501 set of points they call "Heavy Duty". Do you think these are better or still crap?

I'm using OE style Autolite #45 copper resistor plugs. I've recleaned them and gapped to .035 - they look new again. I tested all 8 for resistance and shorts and they all test good. I've always had good luck with autolite plugs. I suppose Platinum might last longer but either should work.

[Jrappl]

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Is the Blue Streak stuff any better?

[KULTULZ]

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[Dobie Gillis]

Here's the Wikipedia skinny for Standard Motor Products. Note the reference to Chinese imports. It's likely that their parts related to points and condenser ignition systems are made in China. Parts for what are now considered antique cars represent a very small market so, from a business standpoint, it makes sense to manufacture them offshore where labor costs are lower. You could try the Blue Streak line since the quality is (or used to be) better than their normal stuff. On the points sets be sure to lube the distributor cam with the supplied lube (if they still do that), and bend the wick in the direction of cam rotation. Most of the failures of Blue Streak points were because this was not done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standa...20from%20China.

[scicala]

And something tells me, on Jan. 20, 2021, the influx of Chinese crap parts may increase.

Sal

[craig]

I'm sure you have checked this, but since Y blocks have an odd firing order is there a chance you have a couple of plug wires turned around?

[55blacktie]

You will find many "off-shore" parts on new cars, too. Not all are bad, just as not all American-made parts are good. Manufacturers have to use them to remain competitive, and we Americans have grown accustomed to buying too much stuff because it's cheap. Expect to pay considerably more for what you buy, if you want it made in the U.S., by workers who are paid a living wage.

[Jrappl]

The wires/firing order is correct. I've checked several times including a couple days ago when I tested the resistance of each plug wire.

I'm going to try replacing the coil and plugging the external resistor back in (and I have a new spare if needed). Internet seems split on using internal vs external with many people saying they removed the external and just use the coil that doesn't need a resistor without problems.

My local parts store has the blue streak coil and points in stock!

[KULTULZ]

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[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

And something tells me, on Jan. 20, 2021, the influx of Chinese crap parts may increase.

Sal

Something tells me you are right.

The reason(s) manufacturing went off-shore is cost of labor, unions, OSHA, labor laws, EPA, CORPORATE TAXES, Federal and State regulations, etc. There is no price reduction, just greater corporate profit.

Just did the rear drum brakes on a 2005 TAURUS. MAZDA designed brakes, original drums marked with the FORD Casting ID with BOSCH also stamped and I put on a set of CHI-COM brake cylinders.

All will match perfectly with the MOTORCRAFT CHI-COM front rotors and pads I put on a few years back ...

[darrell]

i used a coil without the resistor on a 57.lasted about 2 days same with second one.

[yblock57]

Just spitballing here... I had a similar intermittent miss on the 272 in my ‘56 f100.

Turned out to be two bad plug wires. They all tested fine when Ohmed, but pulling one at a time from the cap at idle revealed 2 that made little difference.

I keep a couple of long plug wires around to help me diagnose that sorta stuff.

If your ignition parts don’t make any difference, I’d at least try pulling each wire off and see if you get the same bog when each cylinder is dropped.

Good luck

[wellcraft17]

I had a similar issue with a fresh rebuilt 223 ford six many, many years ago. Spent a lot of time going over anything that would cause a miss and the last thing I checked was the new spark plugs I had installed. Pulled all of the plugs out and installed the old plugs and the engine ran perfectly. Bad plug from the factory and I’ve never used that brand of plug again.

[rotorwrench]

From my past experience, a lot of Standard Motor Parts stuff was made in Mexico. They have also purchased the Echlin brand of parts that had been good quality products for many years. I don't know what that effect will be on the condensers they manufacture now and in the future.

I still use Echlin brand condensers for now since all of mine are still working well for the moment. I had an iregular miss fire problem with a Ford FE 390 distributor back when I still owned a T-Bird of that vintage. It had the transistorized ignition that was failing so I converted it back to a standard breaker point system. It still had a miss ever now and then so I pulled the distributor and found that the top bushing had enough play to allow point breaker gap irregularity. I replaced it with a good unit and the miss went away.

Lower quality condensers are likely the main problem with the early standard breaker systems. I still buy two or three at a time just to get one that will operate reliably. It's a sad state of affairs but it's doubtful it will get better unless a person fabricates their own condenser or finds one from a reliable source.

Reliable spark plugs would be the next item on the list.

[54vicky]

I agree with rotor and wellcraft try replacing the wet plugs only.new as usual does not mean they are above being crap.if you have the old ones and they worked use them.went through the same thing a couple of times in last decade or so with NEW plugs

[Jrappl]

The last time this engine ran before the rebuild was in 1970. It was sitting for 50 years so all the old parts are really old!

Only had a few minutes to work on it today but I put the old coil on and added the resistor back in. It starts and runs about the same - still has the miss. I then pulled wires from the distributor one at a time while it was running and each caused the engine to run rougher.

I do have the old plugs but... at least 50 years old... They may work, the old coil does.

Tomorrow I will get a new set of plugs and points and try again. If that doesn't work I have another new set of wires and I'll replace one at a time and see if that makes a difference.

[cousinjd]

I know it is a PIA but you might try pulling plug wires at the plug instead of the dis cap. That way you know the spark is getting to the plug. Just a thought. Jim

[cousinjd]

You might try pulling the plug wires at the plug to make sure you are getting spark at the plug. Just a thought Jim

[Daves55Sedan]

If the miss is not erratic, but rather, symmetrical or occuring at the same cylinder each revolution, the first suspect would be the plug or plug wire for that cylinder. If you can identify which cylinder is miss-firing, it's usually a matter of just replacing the ignition parts for that cylinder (at least in your case whereby compression and so forth seems to be okay).
Check underside of distributor cap to see if a portion of the tower socket on one of the cylinders has a gorge in it or is busted off altogether. That could be your problem.
Another thing to check is the distributor cap tower sockets at the top. Pull the plug wires out of each one-at-a-time and see if any tower sockets are greenish looking. If so that is corrosion which is preventing electrical continuity between the tower socket and plug wire terminal. This is something you always need to keep in the back of your mind for misfire problems if you live in an area that has morning dew and condensation during the transition between late afternoons and evenings (usually in spring and fall seasons).
If this occurs, you can clean that tower socket with a chemical or spin a piece of crocus cloth around in there with the butt end of a pencil until it is shiny copper or aluminum, whichever version of cap you have. THEN, you need to get a pipe cleaner, treated with high-dielectric silicon compound and smear it all around in EACH tower socket, then plug your wires back in. Make sure all the rubber boots have NO cracks and are still pliable or replace them.
What I would say you could immediately ignore is points and condenser. If the points are carrying the spark for other cylinders, it wouldn't skip just that particular cylinder every time.
For the most part, condensers either work for all cylinders or they don't work at all. One notable exception is that the cheap chinese made condensers will break down at the point of an engine running at normal operating temperature, say 190 degrees, but the engine will keep running till you shut it off. If you come back and try to start the engine a minute later, it will never start until the temperature of the condenser decreases to around 95 degrees. Then it will start, but you'll have the same problem if you stop somewhere for a few minutes and want to start again.
All the chinese made points and condensers are very poor quality.
I have been using Napa Echlin brand heavy duty series without any problems the past couple years, but I think they're made in Mexico now. Not sure if the new ones are substandard as the chinese made junk is.

[Daves55Sedan]

BTW, if you do have the dew and condensation problem in the area you are living in, you also need to keep an eye on the ignition rotor TIP (the portion that makes contact with the underside of the distributor towers). That tip will turn black and green causing poor electrical continuity between tip and tower.
You can carefully file the corrosion off the tip but don't take off too much metal. Just get it clean and shiny again. In the past, I have dunked my tip in a plastic jar full of acid and electroplated the tip using a small section of old copper tubing to help prevent the bare steel of the tip from corroding again too quickly. Never submerge the whole rotor in acid. Only hold the TIP of the rotor down into the acid so that the acid won't eat away at the connections between the metal tip and the spring-steel electrode for the coil tower. If there is no protection afforded to the bare steel tip, it will corrode VERY quickly and you'll be cleaning it again and again. It will be necessary to constantly move the rotor around in the jar as bubbles will form around the tip and you can't see if your tip is actually dipped in the solution. Try to get your piece of copper BELOW the rotor tip as that is all you are interested in plating, BUT DO NOT allow the copper tubing to ever touch the rotor tip.
After electroplating the tip, it is important to take another clean jar full of hot water and dump some baking soda in it, stir and wash the rotor tip in the solution with a terry cloth and dry the rotor. You can polish up that newly plated tip by sprinkling a little bit of rubbing compound on a shop towel and rubbing the tip back and forth upon the towel laying on a flat surface. That should help to keep the tip clean for a while, maybe a year.

[Jrappl]

The cap and rotor are new and look new. First thing I did was pull the cap and look for anything that was not right. The contacts are all clean and nothing looks out of place. There are no cracks or anything else. The rotor is the correct height and length (compared to the old one) and it is also new, clean and fully seated on the distributor shaft. Obviously something is wrong, I just haven't found it yet.

There is no corrosion on anything and the car has been is a dry barn during and since restoration and never stays outside.

The miss is not regular, it is erratic, at least at idle. Can't really tell at speed, just much more noticeable.

When the plugs are clean, it fires up immediately - like touch the key and it's running.

[rotorwrench]

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On engines that set up for a long time or newly overhauled with tight clearances, a person can have fits finding out what all the little inconsistencies are. You could have a valve that is just a little sticky. It may not even show up on a compression test. It will likely show up on a manifold vacuum check if that is what is causing the intermittent miss.

Your plan to renew some of the ignition components is a good place to start. Easiest things first when troubleshooting.

[Daves55Sedan]

For erratic misfires, check the following:
Carburator choke operation, choke butterfly should open as engine warms up.
Carburator idle/fuel mixture setting. With engine running and a vacuum guage connected to manifold vacuum, turn idle-mixture screws to get both the highest vacuum reading and smoothest engine idle. Start with screws turned all the way in and back out 1-1/2 revolutions. Vacuum reading should be around 19-20 and NOT erratic.
Carburator float setting. If float is stuck such the level of fuel in the chamber is too low to fire all the plugs, you may need to re-adjust float setting, but first, test fuel pump output. If fuel pump cant pump enough gas to the carb, fix or replace pump and leave carb float alone.
Vacuum. Check all hoses for cracks and fittings for looseness. Try to utilize as much metal tubing in the system as possible rather than replacing with rubber hoses. The old Fomoco products used as much metal tubing as possible in their vacuum systems. Good idea. It would be a good idea to replace old dried out vacuum hoses for the accessories like windshield wipers, heater temperature control system and windshield washer if so equipped. Make sure no original hoses are missing from the accessories.
An easy way to find out if you may be losing vacuum from the accessory circuit is to disconnect and plug the metal tubing leading into the firewall. Doing this will isolate the accessories system from the engine vacuum altogether. Then, get your engine vacuum straightened out first. After you are satisfied with that, go back and re-connect you main accessory vacuum hose and re-check vacuum results. If you now have low or erratic vacuum, something is amiss in your accessory system, right? !
Valve operation. Sticking valves may be causing the problem. Pop the rocker arm covers off and closely watch each valve make it's full travel with engine idling. Note: might be a good idea to rip off long pieces of aluminum foil from the little lady's kitchen so you can use them to cover over the exhaust headers as oil will squirt out of the rocker arm tops.
If any valves look like they are hanging up, you may have a bent valve or bad valve guide. Time for head rebuilding at which time you can redo valve seats too, grind valves and lap valves into seats, check for broken or weak valve springs. If a valve spring is weak, you can use proper size and thickness of washers to beef up the spring tension to specs.

[Jrappl]

Carb is new and choke disengages completely after warmup.

As I have already mentioned I adjusted the carb and have 19.5" of vacuum, the needle does move a little but adjusting the carb does not stop that - it has to do with the miss. As I also mentioned I have had the heads off during the rebuild, cleaned everything, lapped the valves, checked the guides and installed new seals, springs and retainers. All valves moved smoothly through the guides. I have also had the engine running with the valve covers off and they all move just like they should.

This is a 1959, there is only one vacuum system - the wiper motor and I have plugged that line while trying to get this running right. There is also the ported vacuum advance line from the carb, which is new and as has been tested and the advance is working correctly.

[Jrappl]

I got some Mexican made Blue Streak ignition parts and installed them today. New coil, points and condenser. I also installed a new set of hotter plugs (Autolite 46 - Made in China).

I replaced the coil to points wire, the old one looked ok, no cracks or breaks in the insulation and tested good but its 61 years old. It looked like it was something like 22 gauge and I put in 18 gauge.

I also reinstalled the original rotor. I compared it to the new Standard Motor rotor and it was slightly longer. Maybe 1/16", don't know if that matters but I put the old longer one in.

It fired right up. It runs better but still has a slight miss. At normal temp I can idle it at spec of 450 rpm in gear. In gear running at 450 RPM there IS NO MISS but put it in park, the idle goes up to about 550 and the slight miss comes back in. The miss gets worse with higher engine speeds. BUT - much better than before.

I may try swapping out plug wires tomorrow.

[craig]

You mentioned you're running an import carb right now. Is there any chance you have manifold vac at the dist. instead of venturi vac? If so it maybe advancing too much at low speed creating a miss fire. Unhook and plug the vac line to the dist and drive it to see if your miss goes away. Also, don't remember if this was mentioned, but is the bare ground wire on the breaker plate intact?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by craig

. . . Also, don't remember if this was mentioned, but is the bare ground wire on the breaker plate intact?

Without a good ground wire for the points the ignition can't work correctly. photo # 1

With a Dwell meter you can use it to see how stable the Point gap is (or isn't). If the reading varies by 5 degrees or more the distributor shaft bushings are worn, which can cause inconsistent spark timing.
Back in post #1 you said, "Point dwell is at 28 at an idle but drops a little (22-24).." this could be part of the problem.

[KULTULZ]

Back in post #1 you said, "Point dwell is at 28 at an idle but drops a little (22-24).." this could be part of the problem.

This is normal with a 2pc advance plate.

Now the plates may be binding if a 2pc assembly.

[Jrappl]

I am currently running the import carb but the vacuum port seems correct. Checking timing - at idle vacuum line plugged set at 8 degrees BTDC. Increase engine speed and the mechanical advance works smoothly and increases timing to about 22 degrees.

Plug the vacuum line back in. Timing at idle is still 8 degrees, increasing engine speed advances the timing smoothly up to about 30-35 degrees total. It could be a little more as I only have marks for 0, 10 and 20.

The bare ground wire in the distributor is intact and firmly connected on both ends. I checked it to see if I should replace it and decide to leave it - looks good.

As far as the dwell changing... With the second set of new ignition parts (blue streak points, condenser, coil and Autolite 46 plugs) the dwell is at 28 and only moves 2-3 degrees to 25-26 with increased engine speed. The factory manual says 3 degrees is ok. I'm guessing the import points spring may not have been strong enough and might have been floating some. The blue streak points seem much better - copper body, stronger spring, larger point surface, etc.

I had cleaned and rebuilt the original carb but when I tried it I could not get it to idle - then bought the Chinese one. I pull the original apart again yesterday and I did find one problem. It looks like there were 2 gaskets stuck together on the power valve and I did not notice it. May have changed the position enough to cause an internal leak. I've fixed that and will try it again - maybe over the weekend.

[Daves55Sedan]

Be careful not to loosen the nut closest to the points flat spring. If that spring tension is too loose, the points will flutter at higher RPMs and cause misfiring. If that spring tension is too tight, the rubbing block on the points will wear down against the distributor cam causing the point gap to become more and more closed. The outer nut is the only one you should need to remove for installing wires.
Having two gaskets on the power valve should be okay as long as the gaskets aren't so thick that the assembled main body doesn't end up standing off the valve body due to the power valve being too far out and hitting the power valve recess in the valve body.
If the bottom surface of the main body where the power valve gasket surface is has defects or is scored, it can be milled down flat, then you could use one gasket, maybe even one of the nylon gaskets they give you in the carb rebuild kits. But sounds like your original carb has more problems than just that.
If worst-come-to-worst, you can always send your original carb to Sal Cicala, and he will fix it up for you.

[Ryan]

Deleted some posts and temp banned some users... please remember that we have a zero tolerance policy on politics.

Thanks fellas.

[NoahVail]

Originally Posted by Ryan

please remember that we have a zero tolerance policy on politics.

Bless you. Places without politics feel like a real haven these days.