oil with out zink

[cvicky]

some say youneed to add oil with zink in 50-60s' engines others say no

so far ive been getting away with bargain brand multy grade 10w30

am I looking for trouble

[paul2748]

Every body has a different opinion about this. I heard from a noted Yblock engine builder that any oil with a 30 weight or greater has enough zinc in it for Y blocks and I would assume flatheads. So I 10/30, 10/40, 20/50 should be sufficient without an additive. 60's oil had less ZDDP (zinc blend) that most of the oils noted above. He uses Valvoline 10/30 or 10/40 conventional in all his builds


But as I said, every one has a different opinion on this.

[dmsfrr]

I'm on the Zinc side of the fence.
I was using an older Rotella 10/40 oil but switched to Valvoline VR1 Racing/High Zinc 20/50
~High performance formula for flat tappet engines~

"am I looking for trouble"
Valve train wear may or may not take a while. How many miles do you drive it a year? Some off-shore sourced parts (valve adjusting screws) can fail in a few weeks no matter which oil is used.

50's, 60's & some 70's motor oil used to contain zinc (& phosphorus) to help reduce wear at the high stress pressure points in the valve trains of older engines. But with the advent of unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, hydraulic and roller lifters... the zinc & phosphorus wasn't as needed and it contaminated emission equipment... so it was removed.

I think of high Zinc oil as insurance. Might never need it or know that I did, but I don't want the cam to go flat either.

More info at this link... https://www.ctci.org/engine-oil/
.

[50fordcoupeman]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

I'm on the Zinc side of the fence.
I was using an older Rotella 10/40 oil but switched to Valvoline VR1 Racing/High Zinc 20/50
High performance formula for flat tappet engines

"am I looking for trouble"
Valve train wear may or may not take a while. How many miles do you drive it a year? Some off-shore sourced parts (valve adjusting screws) can fail in a few weeks no matter which oil is used.

50's, 60's & some 70's motor oil used to contain zinc (& phosphorus) to help reduce wear at the high stress pressure points in the valve trains of older engines. But with the advent of unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, hydraulic and roller lifters... the zinc & phosphorus wasn't as needed and it contaminated emission equipment... so it was removed.

I think of high Zinc oil as insurance. Might never need it or know that I did, but I don't want the cam to go flat either.

More info at this link... https://www.ctci.org/engine-oil/
.

I am with you on this. I use Valvoline VR1 also in my avatar 302. One oil change a year won't break the bank!!

[Gene F]

Rotella was reformualted too. I stopped using it. I now use Lucas Hotrod Oil. Valvoline racing oil is good too. Flat tappets on the camshaft are the area of concern.

[JeffB2]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

For an older engine back when 30WT was the go to oil you might want to think Lucas Plus, a lot of the cheap oils today have very little zddp so as to satisfy newer emission standards. https://lucasoil.com/pdf/Zinc_Values_MotorcycleOil.pdf

[rotorwrench]

The ZDDP was not completely removed. It was just reduced. The higher performance engines of the late 50s through the early 70s needed 1200 PPM of ZDDP for better longevity of flat tappet valve train components. The first reduction brought the levels down to 1000 PPM and further reductions reduced it to 800 PPM so it's still in there but at a reduced amount.

[paul2748]

80's oil had less than 800 PPM


Go here for some facts


https://www.ctci.org/gilsgarage/engi...-oil-and-zddp/

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The ZDDP was not completely removed. It was just reduced. The higher performance engines of the late 50s through the early 70s needed 1200 PPM of ZDDP for better longevity of flat tappet valve train components. The first reduction brought the levels down to 1000 PPM and further reductions reduced it to 800 PPM so it's still in there but at a reduced amount.

[Dana Barlow]

I use Valvoline VR1 ,it is among other things made for flat tappet cam engines.

[greenpondmike]

Originally Posted by paul2748

80's oil had less than 800 PPM


Go here for some facts


https://www.ctci.org/gilsgarage/engi...-oil-and-zddp/

Paul, I believe you posted that in good faith, but I don't trust the article. I think there are a lot of propaganda articles out there to control what people think. I was a teen in the 80s and my dad worked on his own stuff and I knew some hot rodders also. The oil never gave any trouble that I'm aware (unlike the lower zddp oils of today) of except for some cheap store brands and the rumors to stay away from quaker state and stp. I've read the articles including the one on modern oils that give higher psi flow (now pressure). I bought into them and almost ruint my engine on that stuff. Can you really blame me if I'm more sceptical than ever now?
I was about as gullable as a blonde haired dude could get, but as Abraham Lincoln once said--you can't believe everything on the internet because there is no way to prove that it's true....lol

[paul2748]

The guy who commissioned this study has no axe to grind with anybody. He is a noted early Bird restorer and engine builder.

Originally Posted by greenpondmike

Paul, I believe you posted that in good faith, but I don't trust the article. I think there are a lot of propaganda articles out there to control what people think. I was a teen in the 80s and my dad worked on his own stuff and I knew some hot rodders also. The oil never gave any trouble that I'm aware (unlike the lower zddp oils of today) of except for some cheap store brands and the rumors to stay away from quaker state and stp. I've read the articles including the one on modern oils that give higher psi flow (now pressure). I bought into them and almost ruint my engine on that stuff. Can you really blame me if I'm more sceptical than ever now?
I was about as gullable as a blonde haired dude could get, but as Abraham Lincoln once said--you can't believe everything on the internet because there is no way to prove that it's true....lol

[BW]

I use Lucas Hotrod and Classic. I would rather be safe then sorry.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by cvicky

some say youneed to add oil with zink in 50-60s' engines others say no

so far ive been getting away with bargain brand multy grade 10w30

am I looking for trouble

You're doing great. There is enough zinc in the oii you're using. One requirement for oil to meet new standards is that it be backward compatible to meet previous standards. So no need to worry unless you have a high zoot race engine with aftermarket extreme pressure valve springs.

[Daves55Sedan]

Todays Valvoline premium blue 15W-40 deisel oil has 1270ppm zinc. I've been using it for many years. My 292 has a zillion miles on it and still runs great.

[paul2748]

You might want to look at this discussion about oil


http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic151765.aspx

[fordor41]

I agree with dmsfrr, I use zinc in my Y-block with 10-30. I figure that it is cheap insurance. $15 every 3000 miles is not going to break me! I add it with every oil change.
I also used zinc in my '81 SBF 302 with Mobil 1 Synthetic 10-30. added the zinc every filter change(3K mi) , changed oil every year and we drove the car, as I remember about
7-8K miles a year.

[rotorwrench]

Anything more than 1200 ppm starts to become detrimental to the engine parts. This was where the API set the limits for good reason (for automobile engines). ZDDP has corrosive properties so don't get too carried away with it. Most diesel engines have larger & heavier duty parts than car engines so they did use higher amounts. The latest API CK-4 rating has reduced levels of ZDDP. Some of them are skirting the API CK-4 rating by listing the engine protection test results. They don't pass for that rating yet but if they eventually do then they won't have much more ZDDP than car engine oil has. They will just use other additives like they have for years. Diesel truck oil is overkill for most automobiles. The stuff helps with the high perfomance engines that started to show up in showrooms in 1958 but the earlier designs really would only need it for initial break in. After that, they would work just fine. The old flatheads don't need it at all. Rompum stompum engines with high compression and high lift, flat tappet cams will be the only ones that benefit from high ZDDP levels. Roller cams don't need high levels.

[greenpondmike]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Anything more than 1200 ppm starts to become detrimental to the engine parts. This was where the API set the limits for good reason (for automobile engines). ZDDP has corrosive properties so don't get too carried away with it. Most diesel engines have larger & heavier duty parts than car engines so they did use higher amounts. The latest API CK-4 rating has reduced levels of ZDDP. Some of them are skirting the API CK-4 rating by listing the engine protection test results. They don't pass for that rating yet but if they eventually do then they won't have much more ZDDP than car engine oil has. They will just use other additives like they have for years. Diesel truck oil is overkill for most automobiles. The stuff helps with the high perfomance engines that started to show up in showrooms in 1958 but the earlier designs really would only need it for initial break in. After that, they would work just fine. The old flatheads don't need it at all. Rompum stompum engines with high compression and high lift, flat tappet cams will be the only ones that benefit from high ZDDP levels. Roller cams don't need high levels.

I humbly disagree. My truck is a 71 stock 6cyl and PYB 10w-30 high mileage almost ruint my cam and did damage a lifter. I now have 15w-40 delo in it with an additive in it. I put the whole bottle in and I only needed 1/4 a bottle, but my engine runs real good on 5000+ppm of zddp. Wish I could get ahold of some old 30wt delo, but I may try some of that renagade 3000ppm oil or penn grade(brad penn). Now valvoline racing would be my last resort, but is an option. I just don't want to trust this epa mandated car oil anymore. Who wants to trust the government to protect their engines?

[54vicky]

Originally Posted by greenpondmike

I humbly disagree. My truck is a 71 stock 6cyl and PYB 10w-30 high mileage almost ruint my cam and did damage a lifter. I now have 15w-40 delo in it with an additive in it. I put the whole bottle in and I only needed 1/4 a bottle, but my engine runs real good on 5000+ppm of zddp. Wish I could get ahold of some old 30wt delo, but I may try some of that renagade 3000ppm oil or penn grade(brad penn). Now valvoline racing would be my last resort, but is an option. I just don't want to trust this epa mandated car oil anymore. Who wants to trust the government to protect their engines?

before you go pounding your chest thinking you enlightened the world about the big bad oil companies ruining your engine what damage did it do to your lifter that it did not take out your cam?Paul pointed you to a discussion that explained their results.you have the right to disagree with it if you can bring forward evidence to dispute the results by all mans do so.but to say it ruined your 1971 6 cylinder by doing something to your lifter that miraculously did not harm your cam I find hard to believe.your quote about what you read also applies to your story I was sure that your engine used hydraulic lifters and does not apply as the oil they were talking about was aimed at solid lifters and heavy spring pressure

[greenpondmike]

Originally Posted by 54vicky

before you go pounding your chest thinking you enlightened the world about the big bad oil companies ruining your engine what damage did it do to your lifter that it did not take out your cam?Paul pointed you to a discussion that explained their results.you have the right to disagree with it if you can bring forward evidence to dispute the results by all mans do so.but to say it ruined your 1971 6 cylinder by doing something to your lifter that miraculously did not harm your cam I find hard to believe.your quote about what you read also applies to your story I was sure that your engine used hydraulic lifters and does not apply as the oil they were talking about was aimed at solid lifters and heavy spring pressure

Whoa man, I didn't think I was pounding on my chest and I believe the oil companies are doing the best they can with the demand that car companies are putting on them because "big bad" government (EPA) wanted the cat converters to last longer and had car companies to warrent them for longer.
My cam WAS damaged--scoured, but it was either fix my truck or get a tricycle to ride 20 miles to work. I HAD to make this work and hope between the zddp for the cam and the wix filter for any grit left behind maybe things will be alright. I have a newer 6cyl that is supposed to run and have now been given a V8 that does run. No I didn't pull the oil pan because I had a limited time period to do this and this simple job turned into a all nighter and a good part of the next day. I drove it and it started ticking again and missing on a cylinder, so I added the zddp and tore into it again about a week later and now it runs as good as it ever did or better--thank GOD. I did pour oil through it to flush it out and carefully clean the top half of the head, the area around the lifters and the lifter bores and pre-assemble lube the stew out of the lifters-especially the 2 new ones and where the damaged one was in which I put one of the originals.
Will it hold up to what I did? So far, so good and maybe the filter won't stop up with particles. The camshaft cut a curvered area into the lifter about 1/8 of an inch. Cam looked scoured, but felt smooth. Broke it in alternating between 2500-3500 rpm (a guess) for a few minutes. Tapped bad at first, but smoothed out real good.
That thar is the rest of the story and I left it out to keep my long posts from being longer.
I know I should have tore it all the way down, cleaned it and replaced some more parts, but making only $8.25 an hour, I did what I could with what money and time I had. All pressure lubrication goes through the oil filter and the cam lobes are splashed lubed. Most of the grit I hope wound up in the grooves around the head bolts and wasn't there as bad when I changed the valve cover gasket a few months before. That pennzoil was slinging better than I have ever seem ANY vehicle sling oil when running it with the valve cover off. Yes, it was lubricating like crazy and this STILL happened. Yes, my rpms were low and it was slinging some oil slap dab over the fender and even coated the inside fender well. Pennzoil is a good oil, but with stuff missing in it, it is no better than any other brand. It still smells good though. Yes, I'm weird--I like to sniff my oil before putting it in the engine.
Ol oil sniffer says--peace y'all