The Ford Barn

Jim Brierley · 06-04-2023, 11:54 AM

What is everyone using for pistons? I have a set bought from Antique engine Rebuilding, no name on them. The box says .001" - .002". My past experience tells me this is not nearly enough, I usually bore to .003" and hone another .0005". I have never had a problem doing it like that.

nkaminar · 06-04-2023, 02:28 PM

Burtz recommends the Egge pistons and rings: https://egge.com. Terry says that the rings seat quicker and seal better. I used the standard pistons from Snyders and I think that was a mistake. I have 2,500 miles on the engine and I don't think the rings have seated yet. I took the head off at 1,500 miles and the honing marks were still there. In my opinion, the Burtz block is hard, a lot harder than the original engines.

0.001 to 0.002 clearance is too tight. I would not hone the Burtz block but return the pistons and go with Egge. When you get the pistons, check the clearance. The pistons are not round but cam ground to be oblong. The are designed to be round once the engine has reached operating temperature. I am not familiar with Edde pistons, but if the skirts are split, the pistons may be tight at the skirts and still work well.

emf · 06-04-2023, 05:47 PM

I bought the Egge pistons that were recommended and also the Hasting rings. I figured I was doing this once, so I overlooked the added expense of the Egge pistons.

Frank

ModelA29 · 06-04-2023, 05:58 PM

Old style gray cast iron rings will seat fastest. Besides longevity modern cars at higher RPM, looking for better mileage (lower drag) and more HP has created newer styles of rings of harder/stronger materials. Rings can be seated and still have hone marks. If you aren't burning oil they are seated. Old style cast iron rings should be fine in a Burtz. Even though it's a modern engine of modern materials we're not trying to seal 10:1 compression, revving to 7,000 or expecting to drive it 1/4 million+ miles.

https://www.aa1car.com/library/ar293.htm

Whole heartedly with buy the best/recommended stuff for the build and do it once.

Synchro909 · 06-04-2023, 06:57 PM

I used Egge pistons in my Burtz engine and it wasn't until about 1,500 - 2,000 miles that I felt things had settled in. It is still going well but I'd expect that at these miles. All that said, my highest mileage engine uses Snyder (or similar) pistons and although things are now a bit loose, it is still going as well as ever. It is difficult to give a figure on how much work it has done because it works very hard while I tow the camper (which weighs in at about a tonne). It has done about 50-60,000 miles that way but I struggle to put a figure on how much more demanding each miles is compared to a solo car. On the basis that it is dragging about double the weight around, my guess is that it would be at least a 50% loading. That would mean the equivalent of 80-90,000 miles plus for a solo car at least.
As far as I'm concerned, those Snyders pistons have done a darned good job (as has everything else in there). I wouldn't underestimate them.

Pete · 06-04-2023, 09:39 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Even though the engine designer recommends them and they almost certainly will outlast several owners, I would never spend several thousand dollars for a quality engine and put cheap cast pistons in it. It is like buying second hand oats.
A lot of people don't know it but forged street pistons have been available for many years.

updraught · 06-05-2023, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModelA29

Old style gray cast iron rings will seat fastest. Besides longevity modern cars at higher RPM, looking for better mileage (lower drag) and more HP has created newer styles of rings of harder/stronger materials. Rings can be seated and still have hone marks. If you aren't burning oil they are seated. Old style cast iron rings should be fine in a Burtz. Even though it's a modern engine of modern materials we're not trying to seal 10:1 compression, revving to 7,000 or expecting to drive it 1/4 million+ miles.
https://www.aa1car.com/library/ar293.htm
Whole heartedly with buy the best/recommended stuff for the build and do it once.

Modern cars such as Subaru and Audi, that I know of, (having experienced oil drinking) often use low tension rings and zero grade oil to improve fuel consumption figures. Not saying the rings are low tension in this case tho.
https://www.noln.net/running-a-shop/...on-ring-design

ModelA29 · 06-05-2023, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by updraught

Modern cars ...often use low tension rings ... to improve fuel consumption figures.

Blame the EPA and manufacturers having to chase mileage. It's also the reason you no longer have rain gutters and a door over the gas cap. If it helps mileage .00001% they'll do it.
Expense for parts in this thread kinda falls on deaf ears for me. The gapless steel ring set in my race engine was almost $450. I could buy a whole set for my A engine for less than 1 cylinder of those.

I don't know where I first heard it but - buy once cry once - you usually end up having to buy the good stuff after the cheap parts failed so you might as well spend the money up front.

CT Jack · 06-05-2023, 09:59 PM

I am using EGGE E1104-4 pistons in my Burtz engine which use narrow rings compared to standard Model A pistons. The pistons are fitted with a set of 665 Hasting rings coated with manganese phosphate for improved break in.

Dan McEachern · 06-05-2023, 10:08 PM

Jim- call AER and ask them how much clearance their pistons need. What do the piston skirts measure??

jeepguy1948 · 06-06-2023, 10:31 AM

Jim asked about piston clearance, not what brand to use and not what rings to use either.

Jim Brierley · 06-06-2023, 10:56 AM

Thanks to all!

I spoke with Leonard Nettles yesterday, and the Silv-O-Lite pistons he has are .002" smaller than normal Model A pistons, I think I'll go with them.

Pete, I agree to a point. I use forged Ross pistons in my Bonneville engine but cast in my street engines. Ross are strong and light, but expensive, and this will be just a street engine.

Dan McEachern · 06-06-2023, 11:43 AM

So........ what exactly are "normal" Model A pistons? What's the skirt diameter on the Silvolite pistons? I can do the math..............

Pete · 06-06-2023, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Pete, I agree to a point. I use forged Ross pistons in my Bonneville engine but cast in my street engines. Ross are strong and light, but expensive, and this will be just a street engine.

I understand completely but never forget the second hand oats.

Dodge · 06-07-2023, 01:32 AM

Jim,
Do the AER pistons use Std. Model A 1/8 width rings or do they use the 5/64 rings?

I got two different answers from the new owners.

I've been using the Egge's with .003 to .004. They are a lot lighter than the Silvolite's

How much do those AER pistons weigh?

Jim Brierley · 06-07-2023, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Jim,
Do the AER pistons use Std. Model A 1/8 width rings or do they use the 5/64 rings?

I got two different answers from the new owners.

I've been using the Egge's with .003 to .004. They are a lot lighter than the Silvolite's

How much do those AER pistons weigh?

5/64th's

06-04-2023, 11:54 AM	#1
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,089	Pistons for Burtz engine What is everyone using for pistons? I have a set bought from Antique engine Rebuilding, no name on them. The box says .001" - .002". My past experience tells me this is not nearly enough, I usually bore to .003" and hone another .0005". I have never had a problem doing it like that.

06-04-2023, 02:28 PM	#2
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine Burtz recommends the Egge pistons and rings: https://egge.com. Terry says that the rings seat quicker and seal better. I used the standard pistons from Snyders and I think that was a mistake. I have 2,500 miles on the engine and I don't think the rings have seated yet. I took the head off at 1,500 miles and the honing marks were still there. In my opinion, the Burtz block is hard, a lot harder than the original engines. 0.001 to 0.002 clearance is too tight. I would not hone the Burtz block but return the pistons and go with Egge. When you get the pistons, check the clearance. The pistons are not round but cam ground to be oblong. The are designed to be round once the engine has reached operating temperature. I am not familiar with Edde pistons, but if the skirts are split, the pistons may be tight at the skirts and still work well. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 06-04-2023 at 02:33 PM.

06-04-2023, 05:47 PM	#3
emf Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Hudson, NY Posts: 511	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine I bought the Egge pistons that were recommended and also the Hasting rings. I figured I was doing this once, so I overlooked the added expense of the Egge pistons. Frank

06-04-2023, 05:58 PM	#4
ModelA29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: SoCal Posts: 591	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine Old style gray cast iron rings will seat fastest. Besides longevity modern cars at higher RPM, looking for better mileage (lower drag) and more HP has created newer styles of rings of harder/stronger materials. Rings can be seated and still have hone marks. If you aren't burning oil they are seated. Old style cast iron rings should be fine in a Burtz. Even though it's a modern engine of modern materials we're not trying to seal 10:1 compression, revving to 7,000 or expecting to drive it 1/4 million+ miles. https://www.aa1car.com/library/ar293.htm Whole heartedly with buy the best/recommended stuff for the build and do it once. Last edited by ModelA29; 06-04-2023 at 06:12 PM.

06-04-2023, 06:57 PM	#5
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine I used Egge pistons in my Burtz engine and it wasn't until about 1,500 - 2,000 miles that I felt things had settled in. It is still going well but I'd expect that at these miles. All that said, my highest mileage engine uses Snyder (or similar) pistons and although things are now a bit loose, it is still going as well as ever. It is difficult to give a figure on how much work it has done because it works very hard while I tow the camper (which weighs in at about a tonne). It has done about 50-60,000 miles that way but I struggle to put a figure on how much more demanding each miles is compared to a solo car. On the basis that it is dragging about double the weight around, my guess is that it would be at least a 50% loading. That would mean the equivalent of 80-90,000 miles plus for a solo car at least. As far as I'm concerned, those Snyders pistons have done a darned good job (as has everything else in there). I wouldn't underestimate them. __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.

06-04-2023, 09:39 PM	#6
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,409	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Even though the engine designer recommends them and they almost certainly will outlast several owners, I would never spend several thousand dollars for a quality engine and put cheap cast pistons in it. It is like buying second hand oats. A lot of people don't know it but forged street pistons have been available for many years.

06-05-2023, 09:59 PM	#9
CT Jack Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hebron, CT Posts: 432	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine I am using EGGE E1104-4 pistons in my Burtz engine which use narrow rings compared to standard Model A pistons. The pistons are fitted with a set of 665 Hasting rings coated with manganese phosphate for improved break in.

06-05-2023, 10:08 PM	#10
Dan McEachern Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 193	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine Jim- call AER and ask them how much clearance their pistons need. What do the piston skirts measure??

06-06-2023, 10:31 AM	#11
jeepguy1948 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 721	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine Jim asked about piston clearance, not what brand to use and not what rings to use either.

06-06-2023, 10:56 AM	#12
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,089	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine Thanks to all! I spoke with Leonard Nettles yesterday, and the Silv-O-Lite pistons he has are .002" smaller than normal Model A pistons, I think I'll go with them. Pete, I agree to a point. I use forged Ross pistons in my Bonneville engine but cast in my street engines. Ross are strong and light, but expensive, and this will be just a street engine.

06-06-2023, 11:43 AM	#13
Dan McEachern Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 193	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine So........ what exactly are "normal" Model A pistons? What's the skirt diameter on the Silvolite pistons? I can do the math..............

06-07-2023, 01:32 AM	#15
Dodge Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Sonoma, CA. Posts: 1,497	Re: Pistons for Burtz engine Jim, Do the AER pistons use Std. Model A 1/8 width rings or do they use the 5/64 rings? I got two different answers from the new owners. I've been using the Egge's with .003 to .004. They are a lot lighter than the Silvolite's How much do those AER pistons weigh?