Metal Stitching my Block

[psimet]

My block was cracked many, many decades before I ever got it. Original to the car and a September '28. We covered it in a previous thread: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299839

I had asked Ken Ehrenhofer about it saying I had JB Welded it but it still was weeping to which he replied, "then you didn't fix it right."

So last year I decided I was going to go all out. I got a pencil grinder and bits and spent a long time cleaning it all out and grinding everything back. When that was done I got a LOT of JB Weld and worked it in to fix it.

That patch lasted well enough I was able to run all last summer and eventually solve some overheating issues, etc.

So I took my son (16 at the time) out in it late last year to teach him how to drive it. Of course he stalled it a few times.



When we got back I realized the area that was patched was back to weeping again. It's where the crack is located is around where the flywheel housing bolts up (maybe I can't remember specifically) but it seems to be under a lot of stress and the heavy clutch play of the new driver was enough to damage the patch.

So I am ready to find a permanent fix - if I am using the same block it appears that I will be metal stitching it. I know nearly nothing about the process. I have a club member who wants to come over and pull the engine.

That's cool but then what am I doing? I was sent an excerpt of the name of a company that apparently seems to sell cold stitching supplies from one of the A magazines but I'm looking for advice from those familiar with the process.

As for whether or not I can do it on my own - mechanically I am more than capable but - I understand it all but I also don't have tons of space or necessarily the right tools.

Any advice re the cold metal stitching process? Any advice on what else I would need to check on the block to even see if it's worth fixing? (I have concerns on whether or not the exhaust side of the block can be adequately cleaned up and decked clean enough to seal well. I currently use the glands and some sealant to help.)

[Gene F]

Oh gosh, you are going to get some replies to this. Here's the thing, only a very experienced welder can do this type of work. I can not stress this enough. In all the US there are only a few shops that specialize in these types repairs.

Another thing, when welding cast iron they use a high nickel content rod, and reverse the leads on the arc welder.

[nkaminar]

What is your budget? How much are you willing to spend? Is, as you say, the engine worth fixing? How much driving are you planning? Local or across the US? What about alternatives, a good used engine without a crack or a Burtz engine?

When I was a teen, many many years ago, people would give me perfectly good used Model A engines, but those days are long gone.

[Gene F]

I worked with a guy once, and he formerly drove a dump truck with a gas engine. The block was cracked. He put a plumbing product in the radiator called WaterGlaze, or perhaps WaterGlass. He said it worked and held for years.

[Gene F]

Do you live in a title state? I mean what happens if you buy a used engine?

[psimet]

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Originally Posted by Gene F

Oh gosh, you are going to get some replies to this. Here's the thing, only a very experienced welder can do this type of work. I can not stress this enough. In all the US there are only a few shops that specialize in these types repairs.

Another thing, when welding cast iron they use a high nickel content rod, and reverse the leads on the arc welder.

It's not welding...or brazing. It's metal stitching. A cold process. I'm past looking at options. Just interested in specific experience people have with metal stitching.

[psimet]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Do you live in a title state? I mean what happens if you buy a used engine?

I have a title. The title has the engine number on it. I haven't pulled the cowl to verify the frame number but I know it will match the current engine.

I was frankly told by a few in this hobby not to worry about it as we would "just stamp" any replacement block to match. There are a few correct stamp sets floating around in the area.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Here is my advice based on experience and an A/B engine rebuilder;

If the crack is along the lower edge of the block at the bottom of water jacket area (-just below the water inlet), then stitching is very difficult at best to do since the side of the water jacket does not have very much rigidity. I would suggest you not try the stitching method in that location. An epoxy will work, and will last many years if you do it correctly. If I (-or my customer) is adamant about a permanent repair, then I use a product called Muggy Weld. In the perfect world, I will preheat the block in a BBQ grill over a very low flame. Allow it to have a couple of hours to come up to 400° or so, and be fully heat soaked. Then make the weld and allow it to cool overnight submerged in a tub of play sand. Use Sodium Silicate or Blue Devil Block & Head Sealer in the coolant once the engine has been rebuilt and first started.

As far as pitting on the exhaust ports, use JB Weld #37901 to fill the pits. Once cured, your machinist can flycut that area smooth and it should last as long as the rebuild does.

[Gene F]

Same here in Ohio.

When all is settled please post the results on here. I would love to know a real-world, practical answer to this.

GENE

[psimet]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

What is your budget? How much are you willing to spend? Is, as you say, the engine worth fixing? How much driving are you planning? Local or across the US? What about alternatives, a good used engine without a crack or a Burtz engine?

When I was a teen, many many years ago, people would give me perfectly good used Model A engines, but those days are long gone.

Apologies.... and yes I didn't include any of those answers as I have already considered them and know where I am at - but of course no one else knows that.

Car is a single family car. Been in mine since it was sold. I have the original sales invoice. 3rd owner. It will stay in the family forever baring circumstances beyond our control.

It will stay almost completely original. I'm younger than 90% of those in this hobby (only 48) so I don't see rust as a horrible thing. Still have the original interior that is in incredible shape for what it is.

The intent is for the car to be mechanically as good as it can be without a complete body off restoration.

I would like to keep the original block. I'm not willing to junk it immediately. the engine runs extremely well for sitting as long as it did. It was "gone through" around '82 or so by my uncle who was more than capable. When I dropped the pan everything was in better shape than I would have imagined. No real play in any of the rods, everything was smooth. I don't believe it was ever bored over. I feel like most of the pistons are original but there were skirt expanders on a couple of them IIRC.

What I am looking for is something along the lines of quick checks. Other places to check for cracks knowing I have this one already. Giving me an idea of how much can be decked off the manifold side. If I can roughly measure from a straight edge to the depth of some of the rot I have there then I can get an idea if it would even clean up. if it isn't cleaning up I am probably moving on from the block and stamping something else to match.

If I have to yank the head I am sure I would measure the bores and check the condition to see if there is anything left to work, etc.

My big thing is a club member want to come over and yank the engine. Great. Then what?

[johnneilson]

I have done stitching on blocks in a few places.

As Brent has mentioned, it requires base material to be present and not in a highly stressed area.

The concept is to install a threaded tapered iron plug into a crack or next to a crack, cut it off and peen slightly. This is done in an overlapping sequence along the crack.

In some race motors where the crack travels from the valve seat to the bore it has been done successfully by sleeving the block first and then stitching into the sleeve and into the valve pocket. It is also advisable to have a couple different size pins and taps available.

John

[psimet]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Here is my advice based on experience and an A/B engine rebuilder;

If the crack is along the lower edge of the block at the bottom of water jacket area (-just below the water inlet), then stitching is very difficult at best to do since the side of the water jacket does not have very much rigidity. I would suggest you not try the stitching method in that location. An epoxy will work, and will last many years if you do it correctly. If I (-or my customer) is adamant about a permanent repair, then I use a product called Muggy Weld. In the perfect world, I will preheat the block in a BBQ grill over a very low flame. Allow it to have a couple of hours to come up to 400° or so, and be fully heat soaked. Then make the weld and allow it to cool overnight submerged in a tub of play sand. Use Sodium Silicate or Blue Devil Block & Head Sealer in the coolant once the engine has been rebuilt and first started.

As far as pitting on the exhaust ports, use JB Weld #37901 to fill the pits. Once cured, your machinist can flycut that area smooth and it should last as long as the rebuild does.

Nice. Yes this is what I was looking for. I have pictures in the other thread but the crack is along the curve where the side of the casting transitions to the underside of the water jacket. Runs along cylinder 4 and then up slightly along the edge on the back side of the block.

I understand about the flexyness there as that's why I keep ending back in this spot. It was originally done with JB weld I believe (unless it was lead tbh). i honestly don't know if it ever really held but the repair was old so I assume it did at some point. It was done before I ever had the car and the car sat for 25 ish years after I got it. As a part of going through it all before starting it I flushed the water jacket and was then I found the leak.

I gotta think if I didn't get that repair done "correctly" and the JB weld would still work then there really isn't any way I am getting that fixed with it in the car. The last time I pulled the starter and linkages to give me more room and it was still near impossible and took days of grinding. I wish I had pictures.

[Harpkatt]

If you ever happen across a copy of the Victor Page Model A Restorer book I recall a section that discusses engine crack repair. Some distinctly antiquated repair methods were given. I'm not saying they good...or bad since I've never tried. But they were interesting.

[psimet]

Just found a pic of it during the process of cleaning it up. This is looking "up" along cylinder 4. It always ends up weeping on the bottom edge of the corner. Right underneath what I assume is the flywheel housing (apologies if that's not correct. I haven't really looked at that "side" of the engine) bolts up.

Looking at it again and remembering the stitching process I am thinking it's not a good candidate for stitching. .....

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Here is my advice based on experience and an A/B engine rebuilder;

If the crack is along the lower edge of the block at the bottom of water jacket area (-just below the water inlet), then stitching is very difficult at best to do since the side of the water jacket does not have very much rigidity. I would suggest you not try the stitching method in that location. An epoxy will work, and will last many years if you do it correctly. If I (-or my customer) is adamant about a permanent repair, then I use a product called Muggy Weld. In the perfect world, I will preheat the block in a BBQ grill over a very low flame. Allow it to have a couple of hours to come up to 400° or so, and be fully heat soaked. Then make the weld and allow it to cool overnight submerged in a tub of play sand. Use Sodium Silicate or Blue Devil Block & Head Sealer in the coolant once the engine has been rebuilt and first started.

As far as pitting on the exhaust ports, use JB Weld #37901 to fill the pits. Once cured, your machinist can flycut that area smooth and it should last as long as the rebuild does.

Brent, so does this make the babbit fall out?

[jb-ob]

Describe 'not a good candidate' ?

Shame you are so far away from Frank Casey in Millbury, Ma.

Metal stitched my '28 block while I waited in his drive way ("What the hell you want to drive all the way back here?"). Magnaflux and pressure tested. The job was so beautiful it was a shame to paint over it.

Sitting in his shop was a five cylinder Cat engine with a connecting rod thru the block. He ground it square, cut another piece of cast iron and stitched the two together.

Amazing lost talent.

[Synchro909]

While I understand the desire to keep the original block, maybe you consider a new Burtz engine. They come with NO number stamped on them so you could stamp the same number on the Burtz, keep your mouth shut and drive on and on and on!
That is, of course said without me knowing what your financial situation is but from my calculations, a new Burtz engine is very comparable to rebuilding an original.

[1crosscut]

In you link in your initial post take another look at my post #36 in that thread. Since it seems the crack in your block is moving enough to break the J.B. loose I think it may work for you.

[ronn]

not sure why you wouldnt just switch the motor out?


Is it really worth all of the work, only to wonder if it doesnt re occur in a yr or three?


some things are worth saving, this doesnt appear to be one.

[nkaminar]

Take the motor out of the car to do the repair. You can buy an inexpensive motor stand at places like Harbor Freight. Use long bolts at the water inlet on the side of the engine to mount the block to the stand, see photo. Take the engine completely apart to do the repair. When putting it back together clean and inspect everything and put on a nice coat of paint.

I don't think this is a good spot to do a stitch repair.

I have repaired cast iron parts many times using nickle rod to do the repair. As Brent said, heat the block first. You may be able to get away with local heat at the repair area without melting out the babbett. Do a short weld then peen with a ball point hammer. Do another short weld and peen. Repeat until completed. Weld metal shrinks when it cools. The peening puts the weld in compression as it cools so the weld does not form a new crack. If you concerned about cosmetics, you can grind the weld to match the contour.

[Bob Bidonde]

In my opinion, the JB Weld fix you have is not well done. The cracks need to be stop holed. That is, find the ends of the cracks and drill a 0.06" diameter hole through the wall. Cracks only occur where there is tension 90 degrees to the crack direction, so the stress in block is trying to spread the crack apart. Also, it is a good idea to use a quality stop leak in the coolant. The JB Weld should fill the crack and spread across it as if you are filling a dent.

[DJ S]

Originally Posted by jb-ob

Describe 'not a good candidate' ?

Shame you are so far away from Frank Casey in Millbury, Ma.

Metal stitched my '28 block while I waited in his drive way ("What the hell you want to drive all the way back here?"). Magnaflux and pressure tested. The job was so beautiful it was a shame to paint over it.

Sitting in his shop was a five cylinder Cat engine with a connecting rod thru the block. He ground it square, cut another piece of cast iron and stitched the two together.

Amazing lost talent.

I was going to say the same thing. Frank Casey in Millbury, MA is the man for this.... A true master of the craft. If you're dead-set on fixing this block, try to arrange logistics with someone in MA who can help get this block to Frank.

Otherwise, you'll need to find someone who can weld that. That's quite the crack, not something a first-timer can lock-and-stitch.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Brent, so does this make the babbit fall out?

At 400° not likely. Generally it will need to be in excess of 500° to become fluid, and above 600 to begin the melting process. Naturally these numbers all depend on the quality and type of soft metal used.

Originally Posted by psimet

Looking at it again and remembering the stitching process I am thinking it's not a good candidate for stitching.

Yes, you are correct. IMO this would not be a good candidate for stitching as all it will do is make the crack travel further, and push the outer portion of the water jacket outward but not under compression.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by psimet

I have concerns on whether or not the exhaust side of the block can be adequately cleaned up and decked clean enough to seal well. I currently use the glands and some sealant to help.

I did a video a few years ago showing how the JB Weld product Brent suggests can be used to repair pitting around the exhaust ports. I drive the car in the video weekly and the seal is still good.

[Richard Knight]

This is my spin on this situation. Your family history with this car is the most important thing, called provenance. To me this is extremely important. Next there is absolutely no way to correctly make any permanent repair on the block with the engine on the car. It has to come out. Whether it can be pinned or not I would leave that up to someone like John Casey. I have repaired many cracks with pinning. I have used 100s of pins. John has probably used thousands. That is a nasty crack. I don't think that crack is pinable. I would not weld it as it would cause more cracks in the heat affected zone 90 degrees to the repair weld. I have seen many repairs and magnafluxed hundreds of blocks. With the block out and upside down possiblr a jb weld high temp high strength could be a permanent repair. I have soldered countless model A blocks cracked in the water jacket. Using special cast iron tinning Flux it is a metal permanent repair for a non pressure water jacket. Last thing there is a sealer approved for use on the m1 that is amazing. Will have to got out and look at the can for the brand name. OR. Get another block and just keep the original. I would fix the original and put it back in.if

[psimet]

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Originally Posted by alexiskai

I did a video a few years ago showing how the JB Weld product Brent suggests can be used to repair pitting around the exhaust ports. I drive the car in the video weekly and the seal is still good.

I was not aware of this product. Thanks to you and BRENT in 10-uh-C

I found a picture of the port area with the manifolds off from a couple of years ago.

[psimet]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

In my opinion, the JB Weld fix you have is not well done. The cracks need to be stop holed. That is, find the ends of the cracks and drill a 0.06" diameter hole through the wall. Cracks only occur where there is tension 90 degrees to the crack direction, so the stress in block is trying to spread the crack apart. Also, it is a good idea to use a quality stop leak in the coolant. The JB Weld should fill the crack and spread across it as if you are filling a dent.

Yeah - always a possibility but I haven't shown the final patch for a reason - because this second time I did it I took the approach "I will be damned if it leaks again" and it's not pretty but it's on there and and it's thick and it's spread about.

Getting end holes drilled - I couldn't get a drill bit in but I did use a carbide burr to in effect cut a relief at all of the ends of the crack.

Getting it out of the car is the only way I will try this approach as I can actually get it into my actual shop and use real tools instead of stuff I have at home.

Leads me to a few questions -

1.I don't get the impression these are that heavy - moveable by 2 people?

2.Is it really worth it for me to just pull it and try and patch this again or am I throwing in the towel and tearing down the engine? That means getting it out to a machine shop, etc. (I am sure the guys in the club have resources to help with that).

3. I am fairly familiar with the Burtz engine. I am in the group on Facebook, following the videos, etc. I'm getting the impression these are ending up being $$$. I see blocks go for as little as a few hundred needed rebuild. I see an occasional sitting after rebuilt engine go for $400-$700 ...but no one really talks about engine prices. I understand why as there are a ton of variables but at this point I really don't know what a decent rebuilt engine cost range should be. I mean if we're talking less than $1k then sign me up and then I'll figure out the current one. If we're talking $5k then maybe I want to think about it.

Listen I own a few companies in the cycling industry so I am acutely aware of how expensive "hobbies" can be but I have also learned and taught my customers that a couple hundred every now and then is a helluva lot easier to swallow than a couple grand every now and then. I may end up at the same place expenditure wise but its how many chunks that make the difference

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by Richard Knight

This is my spin on this situation. Your family history with this car is the most important thing, called provenance. To me this is extremely important. Next there is absolutely no way to correctly make any permanent repair on the block with the engine on the car. It has to come out. Whether it can be pinned or not I would leave that up to someone like John Casey. I have repaired many cracks with pinning. I have used 100s of pins. John has probably used thousands. That is a nasty crack. I don't think that crack is pinable. I would not weld it as it would cause more cracks in the heat affected zone 90 degrees to the repair weld. I have seen many repairs and magnafluxed hundreds of blocks. With the block out and upside down possiblr a jb weld high temp high strength could be a permanent repair. I have soldered countless model A blocks cracked in the water jacket. Using special cast iron tinning Flux it is a metal permanent repair for a non pressure water jacket. Last thing there is a sealer approved for use on the m1 that is amazing. Will have to got out and look at the can for the brand name. OR. Get another block and just keep the original. I would fix the original and put it back in.if

I have heard of using radiator solder....

[Kurt in NJ]

When I first saw the picture of the crack it looked a lot like the area was tinned like it had been soldered
If the area is tinned and the tinning was redone to full coverage of the crack and the area near the crack then a piece of copper wire tapped into the crack and soldered over

I have used stranded wire along with jb weld —- unwind the strands some and work in jb weld before stuffing into a jb weld coated crack as a filler

[ronn]

3. I am fairly familiar with the Burtz engine. I am in the group on Facebook, following the videos, etc. I'm getting the impression these are ending up being $$$. I see blocks go for as little as a few hundred needed rebuild. I see an occasional sitting after rebuilt engine go for $400-$700 ...but no one really talks about engine prices. I understand why as there are a ton of variables but at this point I really don't know what a decent rebuilt engine cost range should be. I mean if we're talking less than $1k then sign me up and then I'll figure out the current one. If we're talking $5k then maybe I want to think about it.



since no 2 people are of the exact same opinion, I must say that I value Brents opinion immensely- and you should too. He does this day in and day out and understands the complications. with that said, as I previously mentioned, why chase a nut down a rat hole?
on prices, Burtz engine will set you back close to 10k, out of the question as you mention. A good rebuilt block can be had for about 4k, again as you mention out of the question. I have bought a few motors local in the past on CL for around 250-350. that turned out to be good motors. Are you taking a chance? no more then to keep patching your engine and hoping for diff results....


even if you have to swap out a motor or three, you should be into it for no more then 1000. or so. That is the way to go with your car. You can then have fun practicing welding your motor or even eventually having a professional go at it.


what my 2 cents are worth.

[jack backer]

Belzona products.. high quality workable two part epoxy.

https://www.belzona.com/en/index.aspx

[Model "A" Fords]

I used Rons' Machine shop, antique engine rebuilders in Shandon Ohio. ronsmachineshop.com

My brother Rick has been a mechanic all his life and started working on model "A"s over sixty years ago. We visited Rons' booth at Hershey a few years ago and were very impressed. Rick asked all the questions including the ones he already knew the answers to and they came through with flying colors.
With Rick satisfied, I sent my 1930 Fordoor numbers correct engine. I wanted to keep the original block but it had some cracks in it. I was told they could repair by welding as they have done for many engines over the years. It seemed a no brainer and now have my engine like new again.
Possibly they could just repair your cracked block leaving the rest to do on your own. An email or phone call may put you at ease.
Hope all works out.

[jimTN]

A good welder using rods for cast iron could fix that after it was v'd out and clean. The good rods for that do not require pre heating, just short beads at a time, cleaning each time.

[psimet]

As with all things I adjust my expectations with the data I receive. I am starting to lean towards a short block rebuild that seems to run in the neighborhood of $3k or so (I'll save my paper route money).

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by Model "A" Fords

I used Rons' Machine shop, antique engine rebuilders in Shandon Ohio. ronsmachineshop.com

My brother Rick has been a mechanic all his life and started working on model "A"s over sixty years ago. We visited Rons' booth at Hershey a few years ago and were very impressed. Rick asked all the questions including the ones he already knew the answers to and they came through with flying colors.
With Rick satisfied, I sent my 1930 Fordoor numbers correct engine. I wanted to keep the original block but it had some cracks in it. I was told they could repair by welding as they have done for many engines over the years. It seemed a no brainer and now have my engine like new again.
Possibly they could just repair your cracked block leaving the rest to do on your own. An email or phone call may put you at ease.
Hope all works out.

Hmmmm, when was this?

[Synchro909]

You need some good Aussie knowhow - and deep pockets. https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...eb21+clear.pdf

[Pete]

First off you need to understand that there is not a crack or broken piece of cast iron that can not be welded or repaired with screws. (stitching)
Something to remember also is never let anyone use nickel rod to repair your cast iron.
Ancient technology.

The hardest part of quality cast iron repair is finding someone that has kept up with the technology.
Just so you will know when you have found that person, he will be able to construct a complete new block from welding rod if he is offered enough money.

[nkaminar]

Pete, The nickel rod has worked well for me but I admit that it was years ago. So if the nickel rod is old technology, how is cast iron welded today?

Old man learning new tricks.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Pete, The nickel rod has worked well for me but I admit that it was years ago. So if the nickel rod is old technology, how is cast iron welded today?

Old man learning new tricks.

There are several ways but HERE is my go-to.

[nkaminar]

Thanks, Brent. I am now educated. Looks like a good candidate to fix Psimet's block.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Pete, The nickel rod has worked well for me but I admit that it was years ago. So if the nickel rod is old technology, how is cast iron welded today?

Old man learning new tricks.

Like Brent says, Muggy is one way, especially if the job requires stick welding
because of accessibility.

TIG is preferred. The rod will depend on the type of cast iron being welded.
ER70 works for most. Bronze or a silver alloy is used also. Sometimes applied with a gas torch.
Plain cast iron rod is also used, applied with a gas torch and flux. This is an excellent repair that color matches extremely well but due to having to heat the whole block or part usually requires re-machining all machined surfaces due to oxidation.

[wwirz]

There are a few YOUTUBE videos on Metal Stitching by Metalock. It can be done, but I do not know how economical it is for this repair. It is not a do-it-yourself process

[Model "A" Fords]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Hmmmm, when was this?

Gene F,
My engine was sent to Rons' Machine Shop in March 2020. They repaired the cracks some time after and the rebuilt short block was shipped back September 2020. I'm curious to the "Hmmmm" referenced in your question. Am I missing something?

[Gene F]

No I guess not. Hey, thanks for the reply. Ya know the big Model-A meet is close to the Ron's Machine shop venue this year.