The Ford Barn

1955cj5 · 05-19-2016, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianpharmd

Castrol 10W30. Also, car has oil filter that mounts to the side, not at an angle. Forgot about that. I included a picture of the oil filter in case that is an issue. The oil filter is a NAPA one that I purchased from website just so I had the correct one/size.

Brian

Does that oil line get as close to the exhaust pipe as it appears in the photo in post #14?

Maybe the oil line is just getting hot and causing the erroneous pressure reading?

My new engine has a filter and we used a pressure gauge at first startup....it showed almost 15 lbs initially but soon dropped off to 4-6 lbs at idle. I did not drive it with the gauge attached...

Ron W · 05-19-2016, 06:46 PM

As Tom has indicated, you are reading the pressure required to push the oil through the filter. When the filter is plugged it reads high. That's one way to tell. Mine exceeds 20# when revved up cold. It is full flow (no by-pass) and all oil must pass through the filter before flowing up into the engine. I'm not sure how yours is piped but I would note the pressure reading with a new filter so you can tell if things change. You can see mine in my avatar. Ron W

tbirdtbird · 05-19-2016, 07:10 PM

I am not convinced you have an actual problem.

And those gauges are notoriously inaccurate.

There is only one way that the valve cover mounted oil filter you show can be piped and it does not involve a restriction. You are seeing the effect of the filter, since the gauge is before the filter. The pressure after the filter will be very much less, and the flow will be the usual high volume. If the dipper tray were not filling properly the rods would have already burned up

I have seen that exact same brand of gauge have the pointer moved because the thing is only rated for 10 psi, when in fact when cold the pressure is higher. The higher cold pressure over-exerts on the bourdon mechanism (a mechanical multiplication mechanism) inside the gauge and moves the pointer permanently (meaning it never returns to zero) , rendering the gauge even more inaccurate

brianpharmd · 05-19-2016, 10:15 PM

Ron W., Tom, Benson -

I have taken off the valve cover. The oil pressure line is about 3.5 inches from the exhaust manifold so I think it is not that close to raise the pressure. I have included several pictures of the oil return tube, the filter, the valve cover, return holes and the valves/oil pump. I checked the oil return tube and it was completely clear. ran a bottle brush down it and some cleaner spray to ensure no blockage. Hopefully these pictures will give you enough information about the type of valves, the oil filter system and oil pump to aid in a diagnosis.

Or if what tbird stated as the cause being the placement of the gauge in relation to the filter. I will keep the valve cover off for now in case other pictures are needed or if someone with a keen eye sees an issue.

Tom is usually pretty good in picking out other issues in pictures that people post that are unrelated to the poster's question. He must be great at those "find the 6 differences between these two pictures" games. 😉

Thank you everyone again for the help.

Brian

Bob C · 05-19-2016, 10:42 PM

Nothing to do with the oil pressure but the #3 exhaust valve looks way to the left side of the lifter.

Bob

Kurt in NJ · 05-19-2016, 10:43 PM

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What is the application you got the filter for, perhaps it is a filter without a bypass valve inside---or it is defective ----the bypass valve in a filter usually opens at 4-12 lbs, but there are some that open at 40, even though it is called a "full flow" filter it doesn't mean that all the oil is getting filtered that goes through it (unless it is afilter without a bypass valve, then the oil is forced to go through the filter, and if there is not a bypass valve as part of the engine the oil pressure will get very high if the gauge is reading the pressure before the filter

look down inside the filter and see if there is a bypass valve in there---or cut the old filter apart , I cut a lot of filters apart in the past, many of them were very cheap inside and many had problems that would make the filter not filter, bad glue jobs etc.

brianpharmd · 05-19-2016, 10:47 PM

Forever4 -

I don't know if it is a different style of oil pump/set up that is required with this type of oil filter system. I've included some more close up pictures of the pump.. Again, I am still learning about this A and the hobby in general. Any input is helpful.

brianpharmd · 05-19-2016, 10:51 PM

Pictures attached this time I hope.

tbirdtbird · 05-19-2016, 11:10 PM

"I don't know if it is a different style of oil pump/set up that is required with this type of oil filter system"

Nope that oil filter system works with the stock pump just fine.
I agree that the spring holding the drive down is gaffed up somehow, it seems unwound at the top. Not sure that has anything at all with your alleged 'problem', though.
But while it is apart I would install a correct retaining spring

Tom Wesenberg · 05-20-2016, 12:09 AM

Tbird beat me to it, but the top of the spring for the drive gear isn't seated correctly. Also inspect the spring for any rust pits, and replace any springs with rust pits, as that's where they will break sooner or later.

It looks like a combination of rust and sludge on the springs. Is this the result of several short drives?
Was the oil pan removed, and the sludge cleaned out?

brianpharmd · 05-20-2016, 05:29 AM

Kurt -
The filter was already installed on the car when I purchased it. It appears to be similar to the filter system you can buy on Bratton's website which to me just is a plain filter system. I don't see any bypass valve in the filter so I imagine all of the oil is filtered via pressure through the filter. I can take a closer look at the filter when I get it apart.

Tbird/Tom -
The car was driven very infrequently by the pre owner. When she did drive it, it was on short drives just down the road. I assume from her driving habits that the moisture in the engine never evaporated since it never got up to full operating temperature. Several of the springs have sludge/rust on them. I can also work to get these replaced. I did drop the plan and cleaned it after I purchased the car and there was not any sludge in the bottom. I also ran some MMO in the oil for about 6-7 small trips to help clean everything (previous thread).

So I need to replace the oil pump distributor drive gear retainer spring? That is the one that is off issue from your previous post? I have not looked yet but does the Les Andrews book discuss how that is completed? I guess I will have to pull the distributor and/or the oil pump to install this spring?

Brian

Tom Wesenberg · 05-20-2016, 05:54 AM

You should be able to just push the top of the spring over to center it on the shaft. If it's just a little sludge and very light surface rust, then I'd leave it. It's when the rust has developed into rust pits, is when they easily break at the pits.

Isn't that the pits.

mike657894 · 05-20-2016, 09:02 AM

get a different gauge. any measuring equipment can fail. you might be on a snipe hunt.

brianpharmd · 05-20-2016, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike657894

get a different gauge. any measuring equipment can fail. you might be on a snipe hunt.

Thanks Mike. I'll be sure to change out that gauge with my left handed screwdriver.

Going on this hunt at least let me find out that the spring on the oil pump is not seated properly as well as having some insight on the status of my valve springs. Plus it adds a searchable tread for oil pressure should others in the future have this question.

1955cj5 · 05-20-2016, 09:19 AM

This is what the oil pump/distributor drive looks like when it's out. I took mine apart and changed the drive gear and shaft because it was worn..

The distributor will need to come out, and if you have a two piece distributor shaft you will need to use a magnet to pull the lower shaft out through the distributor hole or you may be able to push it up from the bottom.

Then the spring will come out and the drive will then lift out by hand.

But all this should not be necessary.

Try a different gauge...auto parts stores have them...they may not have a 0-10 lb scale but it will show you the upper pressure reading...

Dave in MN · 05-20-2016, 09:21 AM

Brian,
There is nothing wrong with the oil pressure you are noting on your gauge. You have an A-Ford-Able oil filter system and the pressures you are reporting are normal. You do not have a lack of flow that will cause problems with your rod dippers. Everything is normal. I have installed over 20 of these filters and they all deliver the pressure readings you have reported.

FYIW: I would keep the old gauge just because it is of the era and seems to be functioning exactly as it should. My original Rex-O-Co oil pressure gauge "pegs" at start up and I don't worry about it...

From the photos you posted, you have Babbitt rods and mains. You can clearly see the Babbitt and shims on the rods. The brass shim is showing between the rear main cap and the block in one of the photos. I see the edge of a shim at the center main. Evidence of shim in two main bearing locations would indicate Babbitt main bearings.

Replace or reposition the oil pump drive gear spring, put it back together and drive it.
Good Day!

www.durableperformance.net

BILL WILLIAMSON · 05-20-2016, 09:36 AM

I "FEEL" that you don't really have a PROBLEM.
Bill W.

brianpharmd · 05-20-2016, 09:55 AM

I'll look at replacing the gauge if it is not too expensive with one from a local parts store. Otherwise, I'll just keep things and rest more easily knowing that my readings are normal.

Does the oil pump drive gear spring normally slip out of place? I'm not sure if that is a common occurrence or if this was perhaps installed incorrectly at the time of the build/rebuild. I would not think that installing a new distributor and distributor shaft would cause the misalignment of the spring.

tbirdtbird · 05-20-2016, 10:12 AM

That spring really looks goofy, like it is unwound somewhat at the top, as the distance between the coils increases at the top.

You might consider replacing it. As prev stated, you do need to remove the dizzy and its shaft(s). Then the spring tilts out from the top. If you do not remove the drive gear then you will not have a major re-timing job to do.

Personally I would NOT worry about the valve springs. Care to guess how many As are running around out there that have valve springs that look exactly like yours??

Are there any local club members any where near you? Some of the 'issues' you are reporting are in fact normal for the car. These things are troubling you because you are ramping up on your understanding of the peculiarities of the car (which every car has). You are too far away for me to help you in person, else I would

brianpharmd · 05-20-2016, 11:24 AM

I'll order a new spring and get it installed.

I am part of a local club here in NC. I ask them questions as well about issues. I'm fairly new to the Model A world so my experience lies with only 1 or 2 cars. I did not grow up working on cars and if I did any work on them, most already had fuel injection, ABS and computer chips. Model As are a whole different world to me - like trying to learn a foreign language while trying to live/survive in that country. Thus any changes in 1 or 2 cars raises major flags for me whereas, this might be normal to others who have been part of this hobby for many years or have exposure to a larger sampling size of cars. I also ask more questions on here since I tend to get quicker responses. Lastly, I tend to work on my car at night (9 pm- midnight). I have a full time job, a child and other family obligations. Free time is a premium so finding time to work on these cars tend to be when most of my club members are asleep. Nothing against them. Club members here on other time zones quickly answer 10PM or 11PM EST posted questions - which allows me to get at least some sleep at night.

05-19-2016, 06:46 PM	#22
Ron W Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Me. Posts: 260	Re: Oill pressure off the chart As Tom has indicated, you are reading the pressure required to push the oil through the filter. When the filter is plugged it reads high. That's one way to tell. Mine exceeds 20# when revved up cold. It is full flow (no by-pass) and all oil must pass through the filter before flowing up into the engine. I'm not sure how yours is piped but I would note the pressure reading with a new filter so you can tell if things change. You can see mine in my avatar. Ron W

05-19-2016, 07:10 PM	#23
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Oill pressure off the chart I am not convinced you have an actual problem. And those gauges are notoriously inaccurate. There is only one way that the valve cover mounted oil filter you show can be piped and it does not involve a restriction. You are seeing the effect of the filter, since the gauge is before the filter. The pressure after the filter will be very much less, and the flow will be the usual high volume. If the dipper tray were not filling properly the rods would have already burned up I have seen that exact same brand of gauge have the pointer moved because the thing is only rated for 10 psi, when in fact when cold the pressure is higher. The higher cold pressure over-exerts on the bourdon mechanism (a mechanical multiplication mechanism) inside the gauge and moves the pointer permanently (meaning it never returns to zero) , rendering the gauge even more inaccurate __________________ '31 180A

05-19-2016, 10:42 PM	#25
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,754	Re: Oill pressure off the chart Nothing to do with the oil pressure but the #3 exhaust valve looks way to the left side of the lifter. Bob

05-19-2016, 10:43 PM	#26
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: Oill pressure off the chart Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) What is the application you got the filter for, perhaps it is a filter without a bypass valve inside---or it is defective ----the bypass valve in a filter usually opens at 4-12 lbs, but there are some that open at 40, even though it is called a "full flow" filter it doesn't mean that all the oil is getting filtered that goes through it (unless it is afilter without a bypass valve, then the oil is forced to go through the filter, and if there is not a bypass valve as part of the engine the oil pressure will get very high if the gauge is reading the pressure before the filter look down inside the filter and see if there is a bypass valve in there---or cut the old filter apart , I cut a lot of filters apart in the past, many of them were very cheap inside and many had problems that would make the filter not filter, bad glue jobs etc.

05-19-2016, 10:47 PM	#27
brianpharmd Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 141	Re: Oill pressure off the chart Forever4 - I don't know if it is a different style of oil pump/set up that is required with this type of oil filter system. I've included some more close up pictures of the pump.. Again, I am still learning about this A and the hobby in general. Any input is helpful.

05-19-2016, 11:10 PM	#29
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Oill pressure off the chart "I don't know if it is a different style of oil pump/set up that is required with this type of oil filter system" Nope that oil filter system works with the stock pump just fine. I agree that the spring holding the drive down is gaffed up somehow, it seems unwound at the top. Not sure that has anything at all with your alleged 'problem', though. But while it is apart I would install a correct retaining spring __________________ '31 180A

05-20-2016, 12:09 AM	#30
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Oill pressure off the chart Tbird beat me to it, but the top of the spring for the drive gear isn't seated correctly. Also inspect the spring for any rust pits, and replace any springs with rust pits, as that's where they will break sooner or later. It looks like a combination of rust and sludge on the springs. Is this the result of several short drives? Was the oil pan removed, and the sludge cleaned out?

05-20-2016, 05:29 AM	#31
brianpharmd Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 141	Re: Oill pressure off the chart Kurt - The filter was already installed on the car when I purchased it. It appears to be similar to the filter system you can buy on Bratton's website which to me just is a plain filter system. I don't see any bypass valve in the filter so I imagine all of the oil is filtered via pressure through the filter. I can take a closer look at the filter when I get it apart. Tbird/Tom - The car was driven very infrequently by the pre owner. When she did drive it, it was on short drives just down the road. I assume from her driving habits that the moisture in the engine never evaporated since it never got up to full operating temperature. Several of the springs have sludge/rust on them. I can also work to get these replaced. I did drop the plan and cleaned it after I purchased the car and there was not any sludge in the bottom. I also ran some MMO in the oil for about 6-7 small trips to help clean everything (previous thread). So I need to replace the oil pump distributor drive gear retainer spring? That is the one that is off issue from your previous post? I have not looked yet but does the Les Andrews book discuss how that is completed? I guess I will have to pull the distributor and/or the oil pump to install this spring? Brian

05-20-2016, 05:54 AM	#32
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Oill pressure off the chart You should be able to just push the top of the spring over to center it on the shaft. If it's just a little sludge and very light surface rust, then I'd leave it. It's when the rust has developed into rust pits, is when they easily break at the pits. Isn't that the pits.

05-20-2016, 09:02 AM	#33
mike657894 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Bay City Michigan Posts: 1,050	Re: Oill pressure off the chart get a different gauge. any measuring equipment can fail. you might be on a snipe hunt.

05-20-2016, 09:21 AM	#36
Dave in MN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jordan, MN Posts: 1,411	Re: Oill pressure off the chart Brian, There is nothing wrong with the oil pressure you are noting on your gauge. You have an A-Ford-Able oil filter system and the pressures you are reporting are normal. You do not have a lack of flow that will cause problems with your rod dippers. Everything is normal. I have installed over 20 of these filters and they all deliver the pressure readings you have reported. FYIW: I would keep the old gauge just because it is of the era and seems to be functioning exactly as it should. My original Rex-O-Co oil pressure gauge "pegs" at start up and I don't worry about it... From the photos you posted, you have Babbitt rods and mains. You can clearly see the Babbitt and shims on the rods. The brass shim is showing between the rear main cap and the block in one of the photos. I see the edge of a shim at the center main. Evidence of shim in two main bearing locations would indicate Babbitt main bearings. Replace or reposition the oil pump drive gear spring, put it back together and drive it. Good Day! www.durableperformance.net Last edited by Dave in MN; 05-23-2016 at 07:51 AM.

05-20-2016, 09:36 AM	#37
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Oill pressure off the chart I "FEEL" that you don't really have a PROBLEM. Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

05-20-2016, 09:55 AM	#38
brianpharmd Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 141	Re: Oill pressure off the chart I'll look at replacing the gauge if it is not too expensive with one from a local parts store. Otherwise, I'll just keep things and rest more easily knowing that my readings are normal. Does the oil pump drive gear spring normally slip out of place? I'm not sure if that is a common occurrence or if this was perhaps installed incorrectly at the time of the build/rebuild. I would not think that installing a new distributor and distributor shaft would cause the misalignment of the spring.

05-20-2016, 10:12 AM	#39
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Oill pressure off the chart That spring really looks goofy, like it is unwound somewhat at the top, as the distance between the coils increases at the top. You might consider replacing it. As prev stated, you do need to remove the dizzy and its shaft(s). Then the spring tilts out from the top. If you do not remove the drive gear then you will not have a major re-timing job to do. Personally I would NOT worry about the valve springs. Care to guess how many As are running around out there that have valve springs that look exactly like yours?? Are there any local club members any where near you? Some of the 'issues' you are reporting are in fact normal for the car. These things are troubling you because you are ramping up on your understanding of the peculiarities of the car (which every car has). You are too far away for me to help you in person, else I would __________________ '31 180A

05-20-2016, 11:24 AM	#40
brianpharmd Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 141	Re: Oill pressure off the chart I'll order a new spring and get it installed. I am part of a local club here in NC. I ask them questions as well about issues. I'm fairly new to the Model A world so my experience lies with only 1 or 2 cars. I did not grow up working on cars and if I did any work on them, most already had fuel injection, ABS and computer chips. Model As are a whole different world to me - like trying to learn a foreign language while trying to live/survive in that country. Thus any changes in 1 or 2 cars raises major flags for me whereas, this might be normal to others who have been part of this hobby for many years or have exposure to a larger sampling size of cars. I also ask more questions on here since I tend to get quicker responses. Lastly, I tend to work on my car at night (9 pm- midnight). I have a full time job, a child and other family obligations. Free time is a premium so finding time to work on these cars tend to be when most of my club members are asleep. Nothing against them. Club members here on other time zones quickly answer 10PM or 11PM EST posted questions - which allows me to get at least some sleep at night.