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Old 04-15-2021, 08:26 AM   #61
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

One thing is for sure . . . while Sisler may have had good intentions, he knew just about enough to be dangerous when it comes to many of his plans. He somehow believes he will put a mechanical Hilborn injection on the car (with obviously no injection experience) and will drive it on the street . . . AND he plans to get better gas mileage in the process. My guess is that unless he enlisted some talented folks to help him - he probably never managed to get the injectors installed and correctly tuned (even for racing).

If I was Stu Hilborn, I probably would NOT have sold them to him . . . as he probably had one continual headache as a result! LOL

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Old 04-15-2021, 10:12 AM   #62
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

Hey 52 Allard - if you happen to find any documentation on the serial number of the Hilborn injectors - please post it. Would love to know what it was.
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Old 04-15-2021, 12:20 PM   #63
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

He could have installed it and got it running, pretty easy. They are a simple system but, it wouldn't have been streetable.

They have a very good fuel curve for the mid and top end power range. What kills them for idling, is they have to leak vacuum, around the injector, to keep the nozzle from pulling gas straight threw it at idle and it's not adjustable.

They also, circulate a lot of fuel and in my road racing application, the pick up would cavitate on the last 1/3 of the tank and he may have had that problem, as well.
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Old 04-15-2021, 05:58 PM   #64
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

So as frnkeore mentioned the other day, fuel injection system is one thing but just getting the fuel out of the tank and to the injection system and back to the fuel tank is another thing.

Here's how that went...
I was surprised at the pressure system recommended by Dean Moon - definitely simple but a real throwback to 30's style race cars.

And in the next notes, Sisler went for the pressure system...
Not sure how driveable the car would have been because the final schematic doesn't show a way to really use a carburettor (unless he just kept pumping up the tank). Maybe he towed the car? Not sure - it doesn't have any evidence of a tow bar now.
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File Type: pdf 7356 sisler-moon023.pdf (1.62 MB, 12 views)
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Old 04-15-2021, 06:01 PM   #65
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
Hey 52 Allard - if you happen to find any documentation on the serial number of the Hilborn injectors - please post it. Would love to know what it was.
Unfortunately I don't have any of that info. Someone asked me about the serial numbers on the Ardun heads and I don't know that either. The engine was supposed to have a serial number 2036-Z if that means anything to anyone.
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Old 04-15-2021, 06:19 PM   #66
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

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Thanks for sharing. Can't imagine relying on ordering parts from a foreign country by mail for a limited build motor. Especially with apparently just enough knowledge to be dangerous.
Sisler did have lots of correspondence with Allard in England but Allard wasn't doing too well in the mid '50s and definitely not spending any time or money developing the Ardun engine. There are a bunch of his letters that had to do with checks taking 12 or more weeks to clear, credit amounts, parts not available but spared you all of that bother.

All the fun Ardun development was going on in California and Sisler either read too many magazine articles of successful other people's projects or, too cheap or stubborn just to pay someone to get his car working the way he wanted it to. Definitely should have been terrified though.
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:49 AM   #67
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

Regarding the FI system, I bought mine, in late '73 or early '74. At that time, they didn't recommend any fuel pump, other than the injection pump and you had to run separate lines, for the pill and a bypass line. The bypass line, was for closed throttle conditions, while at higher rpm, to keep from building to much pressure. They also recommended a shut off valve, on the pressure side of the pump.

My unit also came with the pump drive, that fit a Flathead generator mount and a V-groove pulley, that I had to change to a timing belt.
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Old 04-16-2021, 06:18 PM   #68
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

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Originally Posted by frnkeore View Post
Regarding the FI system, I bought mine, in late '73 or early '74. At that time, they didn't recommend any fuel pump, other than the injection pump and you had to run separate lines, for the pill and a bypass line. The bypass line, was for closed throttle conditions, while at higher rpm, to keep from building to much pressure. They also recommended a shut off valve, on the pressure side of the pump.

My unit also came with the pump drive, that fit a Flathead generator mount and a V-groove pulley, that I had to change to a timing belt.
Did the bypass line have a pressure regulator up by the pump or something?
Thanks for the info - good stuff - interesting.
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Old 04-16-2021, 06:24 PM   #69
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

As I'm sure you guys figured out that when Sisler wanted to burn more air and fuel - he needed more ignition. Here's what he did...

There is also a good description of the final configuration of the engine and car.

Although Sisler didn't buy the magneto from Joe Hunt, I put that note in too because it's from Joe Hunt and Hunt sent a Vertex magneto setup sheet so thought that was worth sharing.
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File Type: pdf 7656 sisler-joehunt025.pdf (1.10 MB, 15 views)
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Old 04-16-2021, 06:36 PM   #70
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

And that's about all I know. THought it was worth sharing because of the notes from all the different people that were at the top of their game including Zora Duntov, Clem TeBow and others. Hope it was interesting. It goes to show that it took a village and a lot of persistence to make the thing run.

The speedometer in the car currently has a little over 40K miles on it but now the car has a completely stock '62 Cadillac 390 in it and the speedometer isn't hooked up so I'm assuming the Ardun lasted the 40K miles and Sisler didn't want to go through another Ardun rebuild so swapped it out for the Cadillac. I think the Cadillac was purchased new since it doesn't have a serial number (I hear Cadillac stamped the serial number after it was mated with a car). Unfortunately, the Cadillac has the stock Jetaway 315 automatic transmission so can't really use the engine up to its full potential. After the Cadillac engine, I'm guessing Sisler kept driving the car until '73 or that's what the front license plate says and sold it in the early '80s. It's been a non runner ever since.
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Old 04-16-2021, 09:03 PM   #71
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

Looks like Sisler purchased a lot of high quality and proven race components - I wonder if he ever got the engine completed and on the road? Joe Hunt was a personal HotRod friend on mine - in the 70's, he had his shop on Crenshaw Blvd in Torrance - which was on my way to school. Joe Reath introduced me to Joe Hunt (I was 16 years old) and Joe became my ignition mentor. He setup my first Harman Collins dual-point, then my Harman Collins mag for my blown flathead afterwards. I used to help him in his shop and with some of his various vintage Offy projects. He was a wonderful man and always had time to answer my questions and help me with my projects. In recent years, I replicated his magneto testing machine here in Ohio - as the way he explained it to me made sense, so I had to make my own in later years. It is my 'Frankenstein' ignition tester! LOL
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Old 04-17-2021, 01:14 AM   #72
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Great to hear you are going to put an ARDUN back in. My heads have are the early ones with the front winter outlets. Would have preferred center outlets but finding any ARDUN heads was difficult, so these do fine. I did use Ronnieroadster‘s spark plug tube seals in the build and they work great. Love the ARDUN and wish you the best.

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Old 04-17-2021, 01:26 AM   #73
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

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Originally Posted by 52Allard View Post
Did the bypass line have a pressure regulator up by the pump or something?
Thanks for the info - good stuff - interesting.
Thank you for this wonderful thread on your car and the Ardun engine.

The pressure relief valve was in the pump, at the return port. Both pressure and return were -8 AN fittings.

I'm really amazed at the price of the Vertex mag! That would be close to $1600 in today's money.
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Old 04-17-2021, 07:38 AM   #74
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

RE: Injectors:

The original pump for the Hilborn Ardun injector was a vane type that Stu stopped making or servicing many years ago. It is extremely hard to find one in good working condition, so most folks who happen to have one of these injectors will use a modern pump. Here is what the original pump looked like - you can see the pressure relief valve with the tie wire on it. Modern pumps don't have pressure relief valves in the pump - they are part of the line/plumbing instead (and there are many ways they are implemented) - depending on the injector style, usage, fuel type, etc..

Here is one of the early Ardun injector pumps I have:

IMG_9092.jpg

IMG_9093.jpg

OriginalCatalogPics-1963.jpg
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Old 04-17-2021, 07:42 AM   #75
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

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I'm really amazed at the price of the Vertex mag! That would be close to $1600 in today's money.
Part of the reason for that price was due to Sisler's engine being a 1948 style block - which meant he had the front mount distributor setup. So, in addition to the mag itself, they would also have to supply an 90 degree angle drive - which was a fairly big addition to the standard mag cost. In today's world, to try to find an angle drive, then have the proper magneto base setup and then buy the mag, would be well over $2000 - if you can find the angle drive.

The Vertex would have been a much better setup for road-racing and the street in general as it has a mechanical advance system, while the Harman Collins magneto is locked down (with no advance in the mag).

I run a Vertex with an angle drive in my 32 Cabriolet - love the way a mag runs with a flathead.
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Old 04-17-2021, 07:46 AM   #76
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

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Great to hear you are going to put an ARDUN back in. My heads have are the early ones with the front winter outlets. Would have preferred center outlets but finding any ARDUN heads was difficult, so these do fine. I did use Ronnieroadster‘s spark plug tube seals in the build and they work great. Love the ARDUN and wish you the best.

Tom
That is a heck of a nice looking engine compartment. I bet very few "modern" folks have any idea as to what type of engine that is. Did Ronnie build the engine for you? He's a good friend . . . we chat about all things Ardun and flathead related quite frequently.
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Old 04-17-2021, 10:52 AM   #77
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That is a heck of a nice looking engine compartment. I bet very few "modern" folks have any idea as to what type of engine that is. Did Ronnie build the engine for you? He's a good friend . . . we chat about all things Ardun and flathead related quite frequently.
Thank you. My friends and I built the engine as we are in Reno, NV. Another is in process. Yes, people just don’t understand. Always a pleasure to open the hood and observe the people.

For fuel I use an Austin Intake and Quick Fuel Carb. Bought the last manifold Ken made before he sold to H&H. Although a great runner and no issues, wish I would have used Don’s rocker arms which we are using on the new build.

Ronnie has been a great soundboard and love his tube seals. Block is an 8ba wiht a Merc crank. Had a lot of fun making the stainless water outlets. Didn’t know at the time I could have modified the heads and changed the outlets to the center. Oh well, I am kind of a loner. Uniquely, my heads are sequentially numbered 233 and 234. The ‘53 is another nice story. From a six to an ARDUN and many other things while remaining stock appearing.

Too bad I couldn’t afford this when I was younger as I am now 81.
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Old 04-17-2021, 10:55 AM   #78
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Beautiful car and motor!
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Old 04-17-2021, 12:00 PM   #79
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Default Re: Rebuilding an Ardun OHV 1954 - 1956

And just for fun . . . something I found many years ago. The top of the crate that Ardun heads were shipped in:

Ardun-Packing-Crate-Lid copy.jpg
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Old 04-17-2021, 12:03 PM   #80
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You don’t need that cluttering up things, send it my way.

Tom
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