Question regarding 1956 T-bird damper details and timing marks

[zuburg]

I have no idea how dampers are assembled, but I know mine has two pulleys and timing marks on one of them. Are the pulleys permanently mounted to the damper or attached in someway? If attached, is it possible to attach them in the wrong position (so the timing marks are not in the right place in relation to the keyed shaft)?

I ask this because I sent mine out to be rebuilt and was somewhat disappointed they did not refresh the timing marks. It could be because they were almost invisible. I looked very closely and found the marks so I used a triangular file to clean up the marks and added some white paint.

After starting a new 292 engine for the first time and rotating the distributor to adjust timing till the engine ran smoothly, the timing light seems to show the advance several inches beyond the timing marks (more advanced). Assuming each mark represents 2 degrees, my timing would be advanced 30-40 degrees. I assume that is not possible and the engine running OK.

Is there anything else that could cause the timing marks to be off, like the position of the distributor?

[55blacktie]

Post your question on y-blocksforever.com, or go to eatonbalancing.com and send an email to Ted Eaton. Who rebuilt your dampener?

[KULTULZ]

I think there are enough here with the knowledge to help without referring the post to another form ... unbelievable ...

You need to find TRUE TDC and that is done with a PISTON STOP TOOL. Once found, diagnosis is fairly easy.

- https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-t...d-center/28657

... rotating the distributor to adjust timing till the engine ran smoothly, the timing light seems to show the advance several inches beyond the timing marks (more advanced)

You need to ask the re-builder if they are capable of indexing and marking the timing ring.

[zuburg]

I believe it was Damperdoctor

[55blacktie]

Zuberg, you won't regret following my advice. Ted's the man.

I had my damper rebuilt by Damper Dudes. Although I haven't installed mine yet, it looks great; service and turnaround top notch. Ted has used both Damper Dr. and Damper Dudes, but recommended the latter. Nothing done to enhance timing marks, though. I'm considering timing tape, but probably not necessary in my case. If he's still willing, Tim McMaster will be rebuilding my engine.

All of the 55-57 T-bird dampers have a double pulley, even those with manual steering. The pulley is riveted to the damper.I don't know if the rebuilders separate the pulley from the damper. The T-bird damper is not the same as other Y-block dampers and is considerably more valuable.

[Mossback]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Are you sure you're on #1 plug (front on passenger side)? Sorry, but I had to ask.

[Ole Don]

A fresh rebuilt Y block will run best with about 36 degrees total advance. Try using a vacuum gauge for timing, not a light. That engine with that gas will be right, not a book written 70 years ago.

[dmsfrr]

I'm remembering from a few years ago... the metal sheaves of your pulley were bolted onto the hub for some reason instead of riveted as original.

If this is still the case, and at that time I think we reached the conclusion that the rear-most piece with the timing marks on it was indeed out of position.

Photo 1 below.
Rear view showing the correct relative position of the pulley hub keyway and the timing marks.
.
pulley timing marks copy.jpg

Bird crank pulley example.jpg

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

I'm remembering from a few years ago... the metal sheaves of your pulley were bolted onto the hub for some reason instead of riveted as original.

If this is still the case, and at that time I think we reached the conclusion that the rear-most piece with the timing marks on it was indeed out of position.

DAMN!

What a memory...

Guess you haven't forgotten about that twenty I owe you ...

That explains that .

[zuburg]

Dang, now that you mention it, I think you may be right. You do have an amazing memory. Now the question is did you notice that before I sent it for rebuild or after? If after, one may hope they would have noticed and fixed it. In fact maybe they would have replaced the bolts with rivets? Since it is already installed on the engine, engine is in the car, and we can tune better with a vacuum gauge, I don’t think I feel like checking.

Current problem is we used a vacuum gauge today and the needle was bouncing all over the place. We assume we have a vacuum leak somewhere but haven’t found it yet. I plan to pick up some starting fluid and spray on obvious fittings and hoses to see if the RPMs increase.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

. . .
Guess you haven't forgotten about that twenty I owe you ...

. . .

Nope

Originally Posted by zuburg

Dang, now that you mention it, I think you may be right. You do have an amazing memory. Now the question is did you notice that before I sent it for rebuild or after? If after, one may hope they would have noticed and fixed it. In fact maybe they would have replaced the bolts with rivets? . . .

Seems to me we figured it was wrong before you sent it and they may not have fixed it or replaced the bolts with rivets when they had it.

With any luck... removing the radiator fan, fan shroud, fan belts and the bolts in the crank pulley would let you reassemble the pulley in the correct position, without taking the pulley hub off the crankshaft.

Put the engine at Cyl #1 TDC firing position before you take things off, then the timing marks on the pulley should line up with the pointer when you reassemble the pulley in the right place.

Looking at the rotor position with the distributor cap off should get you very close to #1 TDC.
With the cyl #1 spark plug out you may also be able to feel the top of the piston moving to or past TDC with a finger while slightly turning the crankshaft back & forth with a wrench.
.

[zuburg]

Yes, I have learned where #1 is.

[dmsfrr]

If that came out wrong I'm sorry.
It was meant more as background info for other folks reading this thread later who might not know how to find TDC when the original timing marks are messed up. It can happen much more often on other Y-block pulleys. The timing marks are on the weight ring, that can slip and fall off.

[paul2748]

Timing marks on a Bird are on the pulley, not the ring. Sedans had the marks on the ring

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

If that came out wrong I'm sorry.
It was meant more as background info for other folks reading this thread later who might not know how to find TDC when the original timing marks are messed up. It can happen much more often on other Y-block pulleys. The timing marks are on the weight ring, that can slip and fall off.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by paul2748

Timing marks on a Bird are on the pulley, not the ring. Sedans had the marks on the ring

Yes, the example pulley in that photo / comment is for 'other' engines, to show the difference from the T-Bird crank pulleys and their timing marks in the previous photos.

.

[zuburg]

You won’t believe the weekend I had, but spoiler alert: we had a happy ending.

We had some challenges with timing the engine which was running very rough. We hooked up a vacuum gauge and the needle was bouncing all over the place so we couldn’t even get a reading.

We texted a mechanic friend to ask about possible causes. His answer sounded like there could be some serious causes.

So today, we did a compression test on each cylinder. The first one we checked was “0”. The others read around 70-75 (should be 150). Just to be sure we the gauge was working correctly, I borrowed one from my neighbor. His read as high as 140, so I felt much better.

Based on input from the mechanic, we speculated some of the valves must be stuck, so we removed the valve covers. I spotted the first problem. The lift rod on the cylinder with zero compression was not inserted correctly and was not moving the valve at all. So we fixed that and adjusted all the valves as some seemed too tight.

After we put the valve covers back on, we started the car and nearly every problem appeared to be fixed. We have compression in all cylinders, steady vacuum, the timing light shows the timing right on the timing marks where it belongs and it is running smoother than it ever has.

I can’t believe all those problems were solved with just those two issues and so happy it wasn’t something more serious.

[55blacktie]

Zuberg, glad you didn't have to bite the bullet.

[KULTULZ]

Based on input from the mechanic, we speculated some of the valves must be stuck, so we removed the valve covers. I spotted the first problem. The lift rod on the cylinder with zero compression was not inserted correctly and was not moving the valve at all. So we fixed that and adjusted all the valves as some seemed too tight.

After we put the valve covers back on, we started the car and nearly every problem appeared to be fixed. We have compression in all cylinders, steady vacuum, the timing light shows the timing right on the timing marks where it belongs and it is running smoother than it ever has.

I can’t believe all those problems were solved with just those two issues and so happy it wasn’t something more serious.

Who in the world machined and assembled this engine?

[zuburg]

The push rod was our fault (me and a friend that was experienced with engines). When we were first putting all the other pieces onto the long block, we discovered the block and heads were 1957 or later and the hole for the temp sensor was too small. So we had to remove the head to drill it out and tap the new threads. In putting the head back on, we obviously inserted the rod incorrectly. I agree with you that the rocker lashing should have been done better. Oh well. I did learn more with the experience. One, I don’t wish to have to adjust the valves again. Tedious, time consuming and not fun with cranking the engine by hand with the fan blade still installed.

[KULTULZ]

HEY! No Harm, No Foul.

I a$$-um-ed the engine was completely redone at a machine shop.

It is all a learning experience.