Brake Questions

[ryanheacox]

The brakes on our 1930 Fordor seem to fade way too quickly and at low speeds they pulse quite a bit. Also, when adjusting them, they don't drag evenly. I know the drums are steel and not cast iron which probably accounts for some of the fading problem. I took off one front and one rear drum and surprisingly, the shoes look very good, plenty of material left with relatively even wear. They are the old woven linings though. My guess is that the drums have probably been turned quite a bit as well.

My question is, will buying a new set of drums and possibly rollers fix most of the problem? I also found a lot of slop in the cross shaft which I know is a major factor. Any opinions on the split bushings?

[hardtimes]

Hey ryan,
Well, looks like you've stated several reasons why your mechanical brakes aren't functioning fully as Ford engineered them. Yeah, I changed to new drums..that helped. Woven lining/with brass is supposed to be the best to use and so I used that also. As far as the 'split' bushings, I took the cross shaft, turned it down and pressed on stainless sleeved, then used ONE piece full circle brass bushings..no slop at all.
IMO, you will never get satisfactorily mechanicals operation if SLOP in any parts in system. I even enlisted the work of an 'expert' and still was unhappy with FADE and uneven PULL ...when encountering emergency condition. So, I now have gone to full Lincoln hydraulic setup. That makes for piece of mind and eliminated those things that you mention. Good luck !

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

The brakes on our 1930 Fordor seem to fade way too quickly and at low speeds they pulse quite a bit. Also, when adjusting them, they don't drag evenly. I know the drums are steel and not cast iron which probably accounts for some of the fading problem. I took off one front and one rear drum and surprisingly, the shoes look very good, plenty of material left with relatively even wear. They are the old woven linings though. My guess is that the drums have probably been turned quite a bit as well.

My question is, will buying a new set of drums and possibly rollers fix most of the problem? I also found a lot of slop in the cross shaft which I know is a major factor. Any opinions on the split bushings?

There is no question that new drums will improve things assuming all else is equal. If the brake pedal pulsates at slow speeds on even smooth pavement then it is indeed likely one or more drums are out of round. Pulsating only over irregular surfaces generally suggests vertical motion of the spindles due to slop at the king pin thrust bearings.

The wear pattern on the shoes typically provides a false sense of security. If the shoes have a smaller radius than the drum the actual contact patch is MUCH smaller than it appears. What happens is the shoes begin making contact near the heel or anchor end. As you press harder on the pedal the shoes are forced toward the drum at the toe which forces the heel end to move away from the drum. The shoes are simply rocking against the drum with a different contact point at any given time.

[ryanheacox]

Thank you both for your advice.

Marco, what you said makes a lot of sense. I forgot to say that initially, but one of my theories was that the drums were out of round. Your saying that only confirms my suspicions.

Does anyone know about how much your average machine shop would charge to drill out and swage in new lugs? I'm trying to figure out if it would be cheaper to buy the bit and do it myself.

Also, can anyone recommend some quality lug nuts? I'm using some cad plated ones from macs and they wrecked some of the lugs. Just another reason to change the drums...

[Kevin in NJ]

Sweging the studs needs a quality hardened swege and at least a 30 ton press. I spent $125 for the hardened tool another A person copied from an era tool and built the stand.

Are you sure you hubs are good? Inspect and verify first.

There are good repro lug nuts out there. See Bratton's or Synder's, might be A&L that makes them. What you need to do is put a lug nut into your wheel's lug hole and make sure the hole is not worn. The end of the lug nut should be above the back side of the wheel. Not uncommon to find worn holes and need the cupped washers to make the wheel work. The parts houses have the cupped washers.

Also make sure there is no build up of paint on the back side of the wheels where they touch the drums. I recommend sanding to bare metal. Any uneven surface can cause the drums to warp when you tighten the lugnuts. The wheel and the drum are a system that works together to make a stronger structure.

[hardtimes]

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Hey Kevin,
To your knowledge, are the 'original' lug nuts that Ford put on Model As , of a better/harder quality material than those available as repro today ?

[ryanheacox]

Thanks, Kevin. Like I said, I only removed one front and one rear hub but both seem to be in good shape and I have no reason to believe that the other two are any worse. I'll have to try your lug nut test but I'm pretty sure the wheels are fine, there's no signs that would say otherwise and the car runs smooth through 60.

I was just looking at the stainless steel lug nuts. They seem to be the best quality but at $5/nut they're a little pricy.

Are you saying that the swaging tool that comes from Snyders is not up to the task?

hardtimes, from looking at the original Ford parts I have, I would think that the original lug nuts would be better quality than the repros.

[kenparker]

Gonna try to address several questions here.

There is more to getting GOOD mechanical brakes than just putting on new shoes and new cast drums and getting the drums precisely round. The rollers have to be round. Their pivots/pins or shaft have to be round and the holes they fit in have to fit the pins. Brake rods have to be straight. Pedals need good fitting bushings -takes the woddble out of the pedal. The bushings in the crossshaft have to fit without wobbleand slop. Adjusting cones have to match..... and the list goes on.

Good original lug nuts with good clean non worn threads are the best, but Snyders nd Brattons and Berts Lug Nuts are top notch quality.

When I put Hubs on new Cast drums I drill/cut the shoulder off the stud then press the old stud out. It will pop out with a light hammer blow if drilled right. Then the hub is cleaned and blasted. Then the face is put on lathe and checked and corrected for true flatness. Only then is it ready for new studs. It takes a minimum of 30 ton press and keeping the studs perfectly vertical is critical. Yep I have busted a hub and learned the hard way.

In ansere to one query above it cost between $20 and $50 to remove old studs, clean, machine and press in new studs.

The other thing that affects brake quality is the condition of the bearing surface inside the hub. Worn bearing surface inside the hub will offcenter the brakes as well as the worn bering surface on the outside of the axel housing. Axel housing bearing should have no more than .003 out of round.

I talk too much. Time to shut up. ken

[Tom Wesenberg]

I bought a set of 22 lug nuts from A&L about 20 years ago. They look and work fine.

[barkleydave]

If it stops raining... going to load up my truck and head to one of club members old school shop. (It is amazing!)

Been doing my brakes in stages. First we got them adjusted properly and it stops well. Today step two. The mechanicals are good so we are putting cast drums on the front brakes today. The front steel drums were not the best and had a bad stud so we figured time to do the fronts. After recovering from that expense will do cast on rears later this year. Looking forward to straight smooth stops with new fronts.

Who is A& L ? do they have web site?

[Brentwood Bob]

dave, go to the top of the discussion section and open model a web sites. there you will find A & L. I found them under keys. pm me if you want their phone number. Bob

[ryanheacox]

Not sure if I went down the right route. My uncle talked me into getting thicker linings and possibly turning the drums assuming they can be. I also have new cross shaft bushings, rollers and pins coming so hopefully this helps at least a little.

On an unrelated note, I found a site a while back that sold flow tested zenith jets and I can't find the site anymore. Anyone know it?

[Bob C]

Link for jets http://rennerscorner.com/carburetor.html

Bob