Reports on Burtz new engines

[Gold Digger]

Wondering if the new Burtz engines were holding up as planed. What are the drawbacks if there is any? What's the fuel mileage with the orginal type zenith carb? Is there much vibration? Is there a lot more power with the Burtz head and cam? Has there been any disasters?

[alexiskai]

You should join the Facebook group and ask there. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1123377268114692

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

You should join the Facebook group and ask there. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1123377268114692

What if you don't have or intend to never have a facebook account?

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

What if you don't have or intend to never have a facebook account?

Then… don’t?

[rotorwrench]

There was some posting that got somewhat negative but did not seem to reflect a negative outcome for the kit or kits involved. Due to this, some folks hesitate to bring up the subject on here. I've not read any evidence other than normal function for these engines before or since. Do a search if you want but I prefer not to state anything further about that situation.

The engine is a modernized version of the original basic design and as such, it has performed better than OEM in this respect. There have been no major complaints by owners and operators so far that l'm aware of.

[nkaminar]

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Mine is working well. I just did a 400 mile trip in one day and will do the return tomorrow. I replaced the Snyder head with the Burtz head at about 1,500 miles and the honing marks in he cylinders were still visible. I am using the standard pistons and rings from Snyders. Rumors of a soft block are false. I had to do some of the trip on the interstate at 65 mph. I have an overdrive. Back roads are 55 mph. I like that a lot better.

I am not on Face Book or any other social network. Well, I am on Link In for business reasons but am not active. I am about to remove myself from there as I am retired. Why? I value my privacy and am very paranoid about the internet. When available, I will refuse a computer implant in my brain.

Update: Back home. 901 miles total, all except about 5 miles were the trip up there and the trip back. One day each way. No complaints.

[Ryan]

So there's a lot of drama here... you gotta YouTuber saying he had a bad experience and a manufacturer saying his experience wasn't honest. And they argue every time the subject comes up.

I am not interested in hosting that argument.

So feel free to post your own experience, but lets leave that other crap in the past.

Thanks fellas.

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by Ryan

So there's a lot of drama here... you gotta YouTuber saying he had a bad experience and a manufacturer saying his experience wasn't honest. And they argue every time the subject comes up.

I am not interested in hosting that argument.

So feel free to post your own experience, but lets leave that other crap in the past.

Thanks fellas.

Thanks Ryan.

[ampico-kid]

Just wanted to chime in. I had a Burtz engine installed in my 30 Town Sedan a few months ago. I also had the touring cam, lighter flywheel, and the high compression head installed. The engine has performed flawlessly. It has a very healthy power increase over the original engine, but still has that classic Model A engine look and sound. The other thing I notice is the lack of vibration in the steering wheel. I also have a 30 Coupe, and the rebuilt original engine in that car has about 32K miles on it. The vibration in the steering wheel of the Coupe is at times hand numbing. I also notice that the Burtz engine will drop down to an idle quite fast when you step on the clutch, I guess due to the lighter flywheel. Overall I think the Burtz engine has all of the advantages of the original Model A engine (the look and the sound), but with the added benefits of a modern undated engine. I'd definitely give it a five star rating out of five.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by ampico-kid

Just wanted to chime in. I had a Burtz engine installed in my 30 Town Sedan a few months ago. I also had the touring cam, lighter flywheel, and the high compression head installed. The engine has performed flawlessly. It has a very healthy power increase over the original engine, but still has that classic Model A engine look and sound. The other thing I notice is the lack of vibration in the steering wheel. I also have a 30 Coupe, and the rebuilt original engine in that car has about 32K miles on it. The vibration in the steering wheel of the Coupe is at times hand numbing. I also notice that the Burtz engine will drop down to an idle quite fast when you step on the clutch, I guess due to the lighter flywheel. Overall I think the Burtz engine has all of the advantages of the original Model A engine (the look and the sound), but with the added benefits of a modern undated engine. I'd definitely give it a five star rating out of five.

I think the sound comes from a 4 cylinder engine combined with a stock muffler. Years ago someone stopped by my house with a very stock looking Model A. The sound was right on. Then he showed me under the hood. It had a 4 cylinder Chevy II engine that was connected to a stock muffler.

Charlie Stephens

[nkaminar]

When I was a teenager and in my 20's I loved the sound of my Model A. Now that I am approaching 80 my hearing is mostly gone and even with the stock exhaust system I cannot hear the sound I remember. Go figure.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

When I was a teenager and in my 20's I loved the sound of my Model A. Now that I am approaching 80 my hearing is mostly gone and even with the stock exhaust system I cannot hear the sound I remember. Go figure.

Too funny Neil, and FWIW I think most people's opinion of what an original Model-A sounds like is not even correct. Many people used the Midas manufactured reproduction exhaust system during the 60s thru the 80s and they were different sounding. Even the Aries muffler compared to an original Ford-supplied exhaust has a slight sound difference, ...and the sound is even more skewed on today's engines because most engines that we have today have compression increases. A 5½:1 or 6:1 compression ratio head changes the sound over a 4¾:1 stock compression ratio. For the ones that don't believe me, be a spectator at a national event during Start & Idle, -or at the beginning of the Mandatory Tour and have a listen to the cars that are using an original Ford exhaust and have stock compression.

[rotorwrench]

The "Sound" of an engine is the product of it's design. The firing order is part of that design. The ability to manually control the spark advance also affects the sound emitted. The exhaust design is a given that it affects the sound. This brings back the memory of the time when Harley Davidson was trying to copyright the sound of their engine.

[Flathead]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The "Sound" of an engine is the product of it's design. The firing order is part of that design. The ability to manually control the spark advance also affects the sound emitted. The exhaust design is a given that it affects the sound. This brings back the memory of the time when Harley Davidson was trying to copyright the sound of their engine.

Everybody knows the Harley sound but other companies have deemed the fork and blade uneven firing single pin crankshaft as antiquated crap. Maybe so but that is your sound.

[JayJay]

I'm building up a Burtz engine with his cam, flywheel, and high compression head. I'll likely use a Leonard Nettles oil pump, but plan the rest of the internals to be pretty much stock. I will initially use the standard manifolds and Zenith carb, but am seriously considering upgrading to a Weber and possibly a header down thee road after I get it running satisfactorily.

Is it worth going the extra to an Aries "high performance" muffler over the stock? If any of you fine folks have the Aries "high performance" muffler, how much louder over stock is it?

Any recommendations for timing gear, since that seems to be a weak point that would logically be even more vulnerable with the increased hp?

JayJay

[Smokedtires]

Jayjay, all good questions. Maybe you should start another post so the answers don't get lost in the mix.

[GeneBob]

JayJay,
Go to the Aries website and read the descriptions. Their high performance muffler is recommended for 80hp and up. Then go to the Piranios website to see what your changes will produce by comparing to the published dyno runs. I think your changes will keep you in the stock Aries muffler but do compare so you are sure. I don't know if you would be happy with the sound of the HP muffler on your combination. I have never heard the HP muffler so I truly don't know.

[AzBob]

The instructions that came with my Aries High Performance Muffler states "Not to be used on stock or modified engines under 60 hp." I have 6:1 head, Weber carb, cast iron header, IB330 cam that gets my engine in that range.

Personally, I think the Aries HP Muffler is too quiet. I liked the sound of my old rusty muffler better.

[Johnnya101]

I'm in the facebook group, all good things. Very smooth running, powerful, engines. No complaints yet.

One day...

[jack backer]

Put a header and resonator on, it sounds like an Offy when you roll it on. I went with the five bearing cam on mine, with an eventual upgrade to a Serr OHV head.. Burtz built to a 150 horse standard, but he nodded at 200hp..insanity with a stock chassis in my opinion.

[nkaminar]

JayJay,

Weber is a good option but buy some larger jets, mains and idle. The jets are easy to change. With the Weber on the Burtz block you can spin up past 3,000 rpm. I don't know how much rpm is possible. I have arbitrarily set my redline at 3,000 but do most of my cruising at 2,000.

I tried the tube header and straight (open) exhaust but the stock exhaust manifold and Ares performance muffler is just as good and not nearly as noisy.

[Dave in MN]

I have a Serr Miller head on mine and 18,500 miles of trouble free service. Great engine!

[Raaf]

@Dave in MN - what carb setup are you using?

Thanks!

Raaf

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by JayJay

I'm building up a Burtz engine with his cam, flywheel, and high compression head. I'll likely use a Leonard Nettles oil pump, but plan the rest of the internals to be pretty much stock. I will initially use the standard manifolds and Zenith carb, but am seriously considering upgrading to a Weber and possibly a header down thee road after I get it running satisfactorily.

Is it worth going the extra to an Aries "high performance" muffler over the stock? If any of you fine folks have the Aries "high performance" muffler, how much louder over stock is it?

Any recommendations for timing gear, since that seems to be a weak point that would logically be even more vulnerable with the increased hp?

JayJay

So today I spoke with Jim? Joe? Davis, who is Aries Mufflers, he had a seller booth at the Auburn (CA) Swap Meet (down from Oregon). I presented him with the scenarios above and asked his advice on whether a "high performance" muffler was indicated. He said no, the HP muffler is for engines 85 hp and above, and was aimed at the folks who did overhead valve conversions. He didn't think that the modest upgrades I planned in my Burtz would get there, and he advised against the HP muffler. Good enough for me.

BTW, he had one of his polished stainless mufflers on display. Boy is it gorgeous!

Thanks all who responded.

JayJay

[Chris Haynes]

I put the Aries High Performance muffler on my mostly stock A. I did have the cast iron header and the downdraft Holley/Webber carburetor. I noticed a loss of power. Hopefully it will do better on my RiLEY head engine.

[Y-Blockhead]

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Originally Posted by JayJay

BTW, he had one of his polished stainless mufflers on display. Boy is it gorgeous!

They may start out "gorgeous, but they certainly don't stay that way. MO, you're better off with the painted one (plus dollars ahead). Anything gets on it stains. So not so stainless...

Not to mention they could have put that ugly ass weld toward the middle of the car so you couldn't see it.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

They may start out "gorgeous, but they certainly don't stay that way. MO, you're better off with the painted one (plus dollars ahead). Anything gets on it stains. So not so stainless...

Not to mention they could have put that ugly ass weld toward the middle of the car so you couldn't see it.

Yeah, stainless gets that way when it gets hot. I had polished stainless headers on my last BMW motorcycle (the boxer engine, so the headers stuck out the front of the heads, curled around and went aft to the 'silencer'). They started out nice and shiny, but soon turned that brown that your muffler did. I figured the best way to find out what would restore the shine would be to ask at a Harley Davidson dealer (Harleys are all about bling, right?). They sold me a container of "Blue-Job" ("Removes the exhaust pipe blues, gold and yellow discoloration, rust, and fingerprints"). Didn't work worth a darn.

And you're right, that's certainly not the most attractive weld I've ever seen.

JayJay

[Chris Haynes]

The idea behind stainless isn't for looks. It is so they won't rust out.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

The idea behind stainless isn't for looks. It is so they won't rust out.

Agreed. However, the display I saw sure looked to me like it had been polished after assembly (the tops of the welds were polished), and that doesn't contribute much to rust resistance.

JayJay

[rotorwrench]

Aircraft have been using CRES type tubing since the WWII era. It turns brown over a fairly short period of time. It's certainly too much work to keep polished. The systems also need very good support due to the weight. They erode more than corrode but tend to crack when they get thin.

Model A cars already had issues with the exhaust manifold tending to slump down on the heavy end and a lot of that is due to the weight and arm of the exhaust pipe and muffler. Ford should have supported the pipe in front of the muffler as well as behind but they never considered it and issue. They likely didn't figure that so many of these cars would survive as long as they have,

[alexiskai]

I've seen it recommended to use the aftermarket sleeve that mates the tailpipe and the manifold, because supposedly it ensures that the tailpipe is oriented correctly and puts less stress on the joint.

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Model A cars already had issues with the exhaust manifold tending to slump down on the heavy end and a lot of that is due to the weight and arm of the exhaust pipe and muffler. Ford should have supported the pipe in front of the muffler as well as behind but they never considered it and issue. They likely didn't figure that so many of these cars would survive as long as they have,

Henry did think about it. They added the gland rings to keep the manifold located. I think early cars used one in every hole later ones are just in the end holes of the exhaust manifolds. https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...1312&cat=41892

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

The idea behind stainless isn't for looks. It is so they won't rust out.

Then why do they bother to polish it??

Actually, I bought the stainless muffler because I didn't want it to rust out. I didn't like the polished look so it "buffed" it with a scotch-brite. But I didn't expect it to stain. now it looks terrible.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Model A cars already had issues with the exhaust manifold tending to slump down on the heavy end and a lot of that is due to the weight and arm of the exhaust pipe and muffler. Ford should have supported the pipe in front of the muffler as well as behind but they never considered it and issue.

What they really should have done is installed another stud on both ends of the manifold instead of relying on the two center studs to support it.

Hmmm, wonder if I can get a Y-Block manifold to fit...

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Raaf

@Dave in MN - what carb setup are you using?

Thanks!

Raaf

I am currently running one Stromberg 97. (Okay power)
I have also tried two Stromberg 81's (Very good power and throttle response...poor fuel economy, there is one throttle position where I cannot tune out a lean condition.)
I have tried a Holley Sniper TBI Electronic fuel injection (Pretty good power and throttle response and great fuel efficiency) (SEE PHOTOS BELOW)

I am planning a road trip to Alaska this summer and I will be using the Holley Sniper but carrying the single 97 as a backup. The manifold adapter directly below the Holley EFI is removed to install the single Stromberg 97.
Good Day!

[Dave in MN]

Sorry - repeat of previous post

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Hmmm, wonder if I can get a Y-Block manifold to fit...

If you had a Dodge block you could stick a Y head on it.

[Raaf]

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

I am currently running one Stromberg 97. (Okay power)
I have also tried two Stromberg 81's (Very good power and throttle response...poor fuel economy, there is one throttle position where I cannot tune out a lean condition.)
I have tried a Holley Sniper TBI Electronic fuel injection (Pretty good power and throttle response and great fuel efficiency) (SEE PHOTOS BELOW)

I am planning a road trip to Alaska this summer and I will be using the Holley Sniper but carrying the single 97 as a backup. The manifold adapter directly below the Holley EFI is removed to install the single Stromberg 97.
Good Day!

Dave - thank you for this info! I am considering a single 97 for mine.

Do you mind also telling me which manifold you are using for the single? ...and did you have to modify it to get it to fit since the plates where the bolts go are typically cut in half? (Yours appear to be modified in some way to account for this)

I have an unbuilt Burtz and Serr head waiting for me to get my butt into gear but still sorting out some of the final details too.

Thank you!

Raaf

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by modela29

if you had a dodge block you could stick a y head on it.

Awesome...

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Raaf

Dave - thank you for this info! I am considering a single 97 for mine.

Do you mind also telling me which manifold you are using for the single? ...and did you have to modify it to get it to fit since the plates where the bolts go are typically cut in half? (Yours appear to be modified in some way to account for this)

I have an unbuilt Burtz and Serr head waiting for me to get my butt into gear but still sorting out some of the final details too.

Thank you!

Raaf

I made four aluminum spacers that mimic the flange end on the manifold. They act as spacers to support the concave manifold washers. The manifold studs that hold the intake on need to be longer due to the extra manifold thickness. The intake manifold is from Snyders PN: A-9425-SGL This manifold has larger diameter runners than most manifolds so it matches up to the larger Burtz intake ports nicely.

[Raaf]

Thank you Dave - this is very helpful.

Do you have an idea of how much horsepower you're making with the Serr + 97?

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Raaf

Thank you Dave - this is very helpful.

Do you have an idea of how much horsepower you're making with the Serr + 97?

95hp at 2800 rpm.

Jim Brierley ground a cam for me that provided greater torque at a lower rpm.
I designed the car to pull a small camper and keeping the rpm in check was my goal.
Good Day!

[jack backer]

I’m building a 5 cam bearing Burtz and am considering a Serr head as well.. two things give me pause, one is the cost of horsepower, roughly 150 bucks per horse..the other is at the end of the day you’ve built a Pinto or Iron Duke for a whole lot more than you could buy one..

But hey the kids will be too busy spending my money to waste time lining my casket with it..

[updraught]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

JayJay,
I tried the tube header and straight (open) exhaust but the stock exhaust manifold and Ares performance muffler is just as good and not nearly as noisy.

I can't see how most tube headers are going to work as most are not turned length pipes to create the suction of having even flow pulses. Also, the low compression means there is not much energy available to do much. Low compression needs low restriction in the muffler. Too wide an exhaust pipe could lead to drain where exhaust doesn't flow fast enough. This seems to be forgotten in modern post turbo times.

[jack backer]

It’s difficult to achieve extraction with a modified model A flathead engine exhaust system. Header doesn’t provide intake manifold heat beneficial to performance.

A header is sexy and the sound is unique..

[Dodge]

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The best combination is a stainless steel muffler that is ceramic coated. They offer many colors. Black would be good. I used the titanium color on my headers 3yrs. ago and
they still look great. If you get oil or some other stain on it you can brake clean and
scotch brite it off.

[Dan McEachern]

Dodge- who do you use for ceramic coating?

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Dan McEachern

Dodge- who do you use for ceramic coating?

I used a bake-on ceramic from a rattle can that I picked up in my local NAPA store, and it's holding up fine. It went from gray to a sort of gray-gold during curing in the oven (don't tell my co-pilot!) but has held steady color in use. Sorry I don't recall the name of it. I also got another can from one of the vendors, might have been from Snyders, and that's working fine as well.

JayJay