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Old 01-07-2017, 11:53 AM   #1
Steve Plucker
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Default The Victoria Coupe...

Was the 1930 Victoria Coupe at its introduction in 1930 a Slant Window model?

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Old 01-07-2017, 12:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Quote:
Originally Posted by forever4 View Post
Yes
Pictures please.
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Old 01-07-2017, 12:17 PM   #3
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Only the prototype had a straight windshield. I have seen a photo of it and it looks quite weird without the slant windshield. 'Sure am glad Ford decided to go with the slant instead of straight windshield.
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Nov., 1930 Vicky (but it's still considered a 1931 Model A Ford!)

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 01-07-2017 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Added information
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Old 01-07-2017, 12:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Thank you all.

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Old 01-07-2017, 02:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Lot of speculation on that but there was one in Oroville in the 60s that was straight windshield. Don't know what ever happened to it the owner dropped out of the club and I moved out of the area late 60s
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Old 01-07-2017, 07:06 PM   #6
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

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Vince -
It's been quite a while since I saw a photo of that straight windshield Victoria Coupe prototype, but I don't recall there being a visor. One would think there a might be one, but its absence is what was even more strikingly disturbing about its appearance than the lack of a slant windshield. It was neither fish nor fowl without a visor or a slant windshield. It also had a 1930 radiator shell. I wish I could recall where I saw the photo. It may have been in a back issue of the Vicky Association's "The Victoria Bustle" newsletter. The photo you posted of a slant windshield Tudor Sedan was definitely not the photo I saw. I'll try to find that prototype Vicky photo in my back issues of "The Victoria Bustle" and post it here for the Peanut Gallery to study.
Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 01-07-2017 at 07:23 PM. Reason: Forgotten "a"; added "Victoria" to newsletter title
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Old 01-07-2017, 07:48 PM   #7
Tom Endy
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

The attached photos of the early Victoria proto-types were published in the Victoria Bustle a number of years ago; they were given to the Victoria Association by the MAFFI organization with permission to publish. The date on the photos is March 1930.

Tom Endy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Vic-Leatherback-front view.jpg (56.7 KB, 241 views)
File Type: jpg Vic-Leatherback-rear view.jpg (51.5 KB, 218 views)
File Type: jpg Vic-Steelback-front view.jpg (68.5 KB, 252 views)
File Type: jpg Vic-Steelback-rear view.jpg (54.3 KB, 229 views)
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Old 01-07-2017, 09:17 PM   #8
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

THAT'S IT!!! Thanks, Tom. I knew I wasn't losing my mind and that I had actually seen the prototype straight windshield Vicky somewhere before. I was just downstairs going through back issues of "The Victoria Bustle" and finally came across the January, 2006, issue, in which the photos of the Vicky with a dark top and 1930 radiator shell appeared. I was about to scan and post this page when I saw you had beaten me to it! As I wrote in a previous post, the prototype Vicky is an odd-looking duck to our eyes that are accustomed to seeing the production Vicky. I understand this one survived and came into private ownership somewhere along the line. I wonder where it is now?
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Old 01-08-2017, 12:01 AM   #9
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Thanks you Guys. I never would have believed it until I saw the photo. Amazing what one can learn, and so quickly, on this site, Bill
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:18 AM   #10
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Intereesting that although the vic was a deluxe car, the photos show black wheels and black tires.
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Old 01-08-2017, 10:10 AM   #11
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Black wheels were still standard on the Victoria Coupe unless otherwise ordered from the factory or dealer, body color combination notwithstanding. "Deluxe" - even by 1931 - did not automatically mean colored wheels. Certain color combinations for selected "Deluxe" models like the Deluxe Roadster and Deluxe Phaeton, however, did come with colored wheels, such as the Stone Brown and Deep Stone Grey color combo that was standard with Tacoma Cream wheels. But the enclosed cars that were called "Deluxe" received black wheels. Apparently by 1931, though, it was more common for customers to purchase colored wheels for their Model A's than it had been during 1928-1930, once again except for a few set color combos among open cars.
Whitewall tires were never a factory option, only from the dealer or post-purchase business (tire store, Western Auto, local garage, etc.). And whitewall tires back in the Model A day were white on BOTH sides!
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:49 AM   #12
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

My buddy in New Hampshire has a coupe with tires that are whitewall on both sides.
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Old 01-08-2017, 03:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

So I have two questions for the Victoria club members:

1) Were there any indented firewall Leatherback Vickys?

2) When was the Steel Back Vicky introduced?

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Old 01-08-2017, 03:58 PM   #14
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Without digging into my back issues of "The Victoria Bustle" again (and there are a LOT of them!), I seem to recall a photo or two of surviving club members' softback Vickies with indented firewalls (NOTE: I originally mistakenly typed "flat firewalls" here. I have corrected that by changing it to "indented"). There was a transition period when the softbacks were being phased out by the newer steelbacks beginning in about May, 1931. Apparently some (who knows how many 90 years later?) of the now-obsoleted softback bodies still on hand were fitted with the shipment of newly-introduced indented firewalls (intended for the new steelback body) during this transition timeframe of May-June, 1931. This is, of course, typical of Ford = use up existing stocks before introducing the newer part. My guess is that the supply of flat firewalls in the Murray plant was exhausted, so to keep things moving along, the newly-arrived indented firewalls were installed. There were about 37,000 Vickies made. As I recall from an older Victoria Association's body number list, the break between softbacks and steelbacks was almost in the middle at about body #18,500. This is close enough for our purposes, isn't it?
By the way, George DeAngelis was only partially correct in his book "The Model A The Way Henry Built It" in saying that the customer had a choice of either the softback or the steelback Vicky. That makes it sound as though both styles were being made concurrently and all the customer had to do during 1931 was to choose which one he wanted. This would only be true if a dealer had BOTH models on hand during the transition period and could offer either a softback or a steelback Vicky to the customer for a short time. But unless a softback version sat unsold for a long period of time after the steelback Vicky production took over, it would be misleading to maintain that both versions could be ordered at any given time during the Victoria's production run.
Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 01-08-2017 at 10:16 PM. Reason: Chnaged number = can't add! Corrected statement
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Old 01-08-2017, 04:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

By the way and not to drift off-topic, but during this same May-June, 1931, transition period, documented A-400"s (traditionally considered a late 1931 model, i.e., with indented firewalls) were produced with flat firewalls! I recall seeing at least one such A-400 survivor in a back issue of the A-400 club's newsletter. Maybe more have been discovered since then? I would guess that over 95+% of the A-400's had the indented firewall, though. Once again, without seeing company production records, we can rely only on inspecting surviving A-400's to make this assumption - and there are VERY few such flat firewall A-400's around to inspect! That alone speaks volumes.
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Old 01-09-2017, 09:47 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

I keep the record of the surviving 190As for the Victoria Association. There was no 1930 190A model. The production 190A was introduced in November of 1930, and it was the first Model A to have 1931 features such as the slant windshield and the 2-panel radiator shell.
It appears that the changeover to the Steel-Back started at various Ford branch assembly plants about February, 1931. It is likely that not all Ford assembly plants made the changeover to the Steel Back at the same time. To support the Ford assembly plants, the Murray Corporation would have made the production changeover from the Leather-Back to the Steel-Back several months earlier, but the specific date of the changeover by the Murray Corporation is unknown.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:56 AM   #17
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Thanks, Bob. But wouldn't a changeover in February only be four months after the Victoria Coupe's introduction? I believe I read in one of the older "Victoria Bustle" issues it was generally accepted that roughly half the bodies were softback and half steelback, equating to about 18,000+ each. That would mean about half of the Victorias were produced by the beginning of March and shortly thereafter according to assembly plant, with the remaining nine months spent in steelback production. Knowing that open car production usually increased during the late spring/summer (with an attendant slowdown of closed cars), either a whole slew of softbacks were produced by the end of February/early March or production was slower for the Steelbacks for the rest of the year. This would also mean that Victorias with flat firewalls should be more numerous than the surviving examples a few years ago would indicate. Has this changed in the Club in the last 10 years since I was last a member? New research often belies earlier "knowledge". My "knowledge" is 10 years old per the "Victoria Bustle" back issues.
At any rate, no matter when the changeover took place, it's nice to see some interest raised here again concerning the Victoria Coupe!
Marshall

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Old 01-14-2017, 04:40 AM   #18
Steve Plucker
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut View Post
Thanks, Bob. But wouldn't a changeover in February only be four months after the Victoria Coupe's introduction? I believe I read in one of the older "Victoria Bustle" issues it was generally accepted that roughly half the bodies were softback and half steelback, equating to about 18,000+ each. That would mean about half of the Victorias were produced by the beginning of March and shortly thereafter according to assembly plant, with the remaining nine months spent in steelback production. Knowing that open car production usually increased during the late spring/summer (with an attendant slowdown of closed cars), either a whole slew of softbacks were produced by the end of February/early March or production was slower for the Steelbacks for the rest of the year. This would also mean that Victorias with flat firewalls should be more numerous than the surviving examples a few years ago would indicate. Has this changed in the Club in the last 10 years since I was last a member? New research often belies earlier "knowledge". My "knowledge" is 10 years old per the "Victoria Bustle" back issues.
At any rate, no matter when the changeover took place, it's nice to see some interest raised here again concerning the Victoria Coupe!
Marshall
Bob,

Could you please comment on Marshall's question?

Thanks.

Pluck
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Old 01-14-2017, 09:01 AM   #19
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Marshall,

The Victoria Association's data of surviving 190As indicates that some prior publications about the 190A are not accurate. The Association's data was extracted from membership applications which I believe paints a more accurate picture of how the changeover from Leather-Back to Steel-Back took place.

I hope the following data gives some useful insight into the changeover of Leather-Back to Steel-Back 190As. In retrospect, it was likely phased in at Murray in mid to late 1930. Production of Leather-Backs continued though 1930 although declining, and Steel-Back production started and increased to meet demand and phaseout of the Leather-Backs.

The incentive for the change to the Steel-Back was cost reduction by significantly reducing the number of wood parts and roofing materials in the body. The timing of the changeover was a function of the new deep draw tooling availability at Murray. My research suggests that the tooling change at Murray took place in mid to late 1930. In my opinion, the 190A designs, prototyping and production startups all took place in 1930.

The ranges of surviving 190 Murray Body Numbers in the record are:
> USA Leather-Backs with Murray Body Numbers 108 - 28202;
> Three Canadian Leather-Backs with Body Numbers ICA 1, ICA 1576 and ICA 343;
> Steel-Backs with Body Numbers 28269 - 43230 and two more outside of the range distribution, 50304 and 75132.
> One Canadian Steel-Back with Body Number, ICA 215 which makes no sense.
Unfortunately, I have no way of coordinating Murray's body numbers to Murray's production dates.

The record of surviving 190As shows what I believe to be reliable information:
> Unrestored Leather-Back with Murray Body Number 27924 has Engine Number 4435827 which dates to assembly at a Ford branch circa March - May 1931;
>Unrestored Leather-Back with Body Number 28202 has Engine Number 4217869 which dates to assembly at a Ford branch about December 1930 - February 1931;
> Original Steel-Back with Body Number 28618 has Engine Number 4362440 which dates to assembly at a Ford branch about February - April 1931;
> Unrestored Steel-Back with Body Number 28704 has Engine Number 4389939 which dates to assembly at a Ford branch about March - May 1931.

As can be deduced from the above data, the changeover dates varied at different Ford branch assembly plants. The reason for the variation would have been the supply of bodies:
> Attrition of Leather-Back bodies;
> Phased availability of Steel-Back bodies.
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Victoria Coupe...

Great information to update my obsolete "Victoria Bustle" issues and knowledge base, Bob. Thanks! I better buy some of the more recent back issues to bring my Vicky library up-to-date.
It appears that some of the discrepancies center around the difference between (1) when the bodies were made; (2) when and where they were delivered to the various assembly plants: (3) when the car was actually assembled; (4) and when the car was sold, especially if the later steel-back models arrived at the dealership before on-hand softbacks were sold.
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