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11-14-2014, 07:25 PM | #41 |
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Re: Engine melt down
"About sleeves- many large industrial engines are manufactured new with sleeves. Some 'wet', some 'dry'. I guess they all overheat."
and as you know such engines (Caterpiller, etc) have cooling systems very much more sophisticated than a Model A I am curious how the coefficient of expansion of steel liners compares to cast iron
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11-14-2014, 09:30 PM | #42 | |
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Re: Engine melt down
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11-14-2014, 09:33 PM | #43 | |
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Re: Engine melt down
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11-14-2014, 09:38 PM | #44 |
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Re: Engine melt down
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11-14-2014, 10:01 PM | #45 |
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Re: Engine melt down
once I had a piston Gaul,thought not enough clearance,turn out piston pin to tight and caused it to Gaul
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11-15-2014, 03:28 AM | #46 |
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Re: Engine melt down
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11-15-2014, 05:45 AM | #47 | |
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Re: Engine melt down
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After the engine is broke in, like a couple thousand miles, should I then remove the pistons and install the oil rings? |
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11-15-2014, 06:08 AM | #48 |
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Re: Engine melt down
Bob if your valve was bent for whatever reason and had a large open gap wouldn't it allow hot exhaust gases from the other cylinders to enter on the intake stroke? I would think sucking in hot exhaust gases on every intake would overheat just the one cylinder. I think it's unlikely you not only bent your valve but also had an ill fitted piston.
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11-16-2014, 02:36 AM | #49 |
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Re: Engine melt down
To answer one of the questions above about when piston slap starts. With cast aluminum
pistons like we run in our Model A's piston slap seems to show up at about .004. But not all pistons are created equal. The piston material and design determine to some degree what the clearance should be. The .0035 number is very safe and a good one to use. Forged pistons made with modern materials should go closer to .006 in a Model A. In the old days .008 to .010 was the norm for a forged piston. I have seen a lot of stuck Model A and T pistons over the years, its better to have them a little loose than a little to tight. |
11-24-2014, 03:40 AM | #50 |
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Re: Engine melt down
Sorry Tom but you have missunderstood me. Perhaps I did not explain very clearly. For that I appologise. What I was trying to say is that there are different types of oil ring. 1) Plain cast iron oil ring. Made of cast iron like the two top or compression rings but with slots spaced arround it. This is the type of oil ring your Model A would have left the factory with and this is the type of oil ring you should always use when you rebore an engine on the new bore.
2). Oil control ring which are made up of several components. Usually a scraper or cord ring top and bottom a sort of spring ring at the back and in the front to run on the bore a w shaped ring of steel or similar alloy. All this is placed into the oil ring grove. It is for old worn cylinders that you are re ringing and the idea is to restrict the flow of oil to the top rings because the cylinder is worn. Thus stopping the engine from burning oil or smoking. I note that all the suppliers seem to only supply the oil controll type these days and I was wondering if this a factor in causing the ring and piston seizures on the fairly fresh engines that I have been reading about on the forum. ----------------------------- Dont wory it takes 3 beers to understand a KIWI. |
11-24-2014, 09:20 AM | #51 |
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Re: Engine melt down
OK, now I understand what you meant. I refer to them as one piece oil ring vs. 3 piece oil ring, although they may have an inner expander ring, which ups the piece count to 2 and 4.
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11-24-2014, 11:49 AM | #52 | |
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Re: Engine melt down
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11-24-2014, 01:04 PM | #53 | |
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Re: Engine melt down
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Wet sleeved engines are totally different with no comparison with a dry sleeve engine. In the first place I didn't say that sleeved engines caused overheating . I said that sleeved engines would run hotter because the sleeve isn't part of the actual block. The gap, how ever small between the block and the sleeve in a dry sleeve engine can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same as the actual cylinder block. This isn't rocket science but more like 9th grade science. You don't necessarily have to be a professional engine builder to know and understand this fact. Dry sleeved cylinder temps will run higher but not necessarily overheat. Sleeved cylinders can be a good thing to save a numbers matching engine or an engine with otherwise good babbit , but are generally avoided if at all possible . Its pretty clear that some engine builders like the higher price that they get when they get to sleeve all of the cylinders back to standard. Most with engines where all 4 cylinders have been sleeved back to standard know that they run higher temps. If everything such as cooling system, piston clearance and timing are just right and proper use of the spark is followed a person can get by with an engine with all of the cylinders sleeved back to standard. This was just a real thought of some of the things that can cause higher engine temps. Every little thing counts , several things combined and the effects of overheating increase. I do have experience with sleeved cylinders. I have an engine with number 3 and 4 cylinders sleeved and it does run hotter. It doesn't always over heat but run hotter than I liked. Thats why I retired it to the back corner of my shop and replaced it. Truth be known, I'll just bet that most engine builders avoid engines that have been sleeved when they buy cores. |
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11-24-2014, 02:06 PM | #54 |
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Re: Engine melt down
Purdy, my friend, I sure hope y'all got your bullet-proof vest on over there!!! I haven't had a chance to take mine off yet!
"Every little thing counts" ya think?
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11-24-2014, 04:22 PM | #55 |
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Re: Engine melt down
I forgot to ask J&M's opinion on sleeving Model a engines when I visited their shop a few weeks ago.
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11-24-2014, 04:26 PM | #56 | |
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Re: Engine melt down
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I don't rebuild engines as a profession but I have worked on cars and engines most of my life. I have personally built all of my model A's and that includes every nut and bolt. I don't need to send my engines out. I'm just a common man and enjoy sharing my lifetime of model A experience . I'm glad that I don't need money bad enough that I would resort to the flaming and name calling that these three individuals have done to me. The way that I see it is that they are just showing their true character or the lack there of !!! |
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11-24-2014, 04:42 PM | #57 |
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Re: Engine melt down
Read post #34 . They like to resleeve engines and really don't understand how a resleeved cylinder can't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same as the original cylinder block . He wasn't calling names this time though .
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11-24-2014, 06:43 PM | #58 | |
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Re: Engine melt down
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DJ S we sleeve the blocks when needed and have an interference fit. They do have heat transfer unlike the Unknowing poster above who has no machine shop experience. Sleeves are made of same cast iron material. I have pictures posted showing that we leave a step for the sleeves to secure against Then sleeves installed and finally resurfaced and rebored ready for honing. http://www.jandm-machine.com/ |
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11-24-2014, 07:02 PM | #59 |
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Re: Engine melt down
J&M How do you know what experience that I have ???
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11-24-2014, 07:16 PM | #60 |
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Re: Engine melt down
Purdy: You posted it in this same forum:
I don't rebuild engines as a profession but I have worked on cars and engines most of my life. I have personally built all of my model A's and that includes every nut and bolt. I don't need to send my engines out. It can't be any clearer and I am not putting words in your mouth. You have professed to the world and this chat room that you're NOT an engine rebuilder therefore you are Not an expert on engine rebuilding. You cannot give comment on sleeving whereas I cannot give comments on body work or paint. Enough said. |
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