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Old 07-21-2017, 07:39 AM   #1
aermotor
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Default Fine points

I have a daily driver and starting on another project. I am curious as to some examples of pts. deductions and the number of points deducted for said offense. I understand you start with 500 and go down from there.

John
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Old 07-21-2017, 08:38 AM   #2
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Fine points

John, I have a spreadsheet that I made that has all of the particular areas and items that are to be looked at. What it does not do is give the exact amount of points to be deducted. It only gives the maximum amount to be deducted. I would be happy to share that with you if you will PM me your e-mail address.

Next, while the final points are tallied on a 500 point scale, the Judges actually start with a 5000 point scale. For example, if the Fuel Shut-off is worth 1 point on the final sheet, the Judging paper has that item listed as 10 points. This means the judge evaluates the item and gives a score of 1 - 10. In the end, the total number is then divided by 10. If the item scores 5, then theoretically the number rounds up to the full 1 point when the final points are calculated. On the other hand, if the judge recognizes it as a reproduction, he may automatically deduct ½ of the points for being repro, and then take an additional point off for condition. At that point you are at 4 points out of 10 which means it was rounded down to 0 points.

As for as points deductions, there are 23 areas that coincide with the JS book chapters. I find the areas that take the biggest hit on a vehicle in Judging is Areas 9, 10, 11, and 12, --with the most heavy emphasis on 9 & 12. Just those two areas alone account for nearly 20% of the total score sheet, and all four areas combined do equal over 20%. Since most people can only rely on what the commercial upholstery kit manufacturers produce, -and since much of that is either the incorrect material, or sewn incorrectly, then you can see where the major points get deducted.

Now for the things that are easier for YOU to control. So often it is the inattention to details of replicating something. Basically it is all about following instruction, ....which quite honestly some folks struggle with. Another area is over-restoration of an item. This is where it becomes a 'thinking (wo)mans' game. Let's use a rear axle housing as an example. Yours is slightly rusted and pitted so you media-blast it and are ready to begin restoration. Originally when it was manufactured, the metal used to make the housing tubes was brand new, so it was without pits. Because it was hot rolled and formed, it likely had just a minute amount of scaling. The welds were done with a machine that welded it to the end forgings. Once the rear end was completely assembled, the whole rear end housing was dipped down & up into Ford's self-designed paint tank to coat it. As with dipped item, there would be no "orange peel" finish, nor would there be excessive paint build-up. Your job is to replicate that look in exacting detail meaning certain areas you will need to fill & bodywork, and in other areas you will need minimal paint to allow the casting marks and textures to show thru the paint.
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: Fine points

There is also a freebie area...accessories. worth 5 points. no accessories=5 points
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Fine points

Let's use a rear axle housing as an example. Yours is slightly rusted and pitted so you media-blast it and are ready to begin restoration. Originally when it was manufactured, the metal used to make the housing tubes was brand new, so it was without pits. Because it was hot rolled and formed, it likely had just a minute amount of scaling. The welds were done with a machine that welded it to the end forgings. Once the rear end was completely assembled, the whole rear end housing was dipped down & up into Ford's self-designed paint tank to coat it. As with dipped item, there would be no "orange peel" finish, nor would there be excessive paint build-up. Your job is to replicate that look in exacting detail meaning certain areas you will need to fill & bodywork, and in other areas you will need minimal paint to allow the casting marks and textures to show thru the paint.[/QUOTE]

Brent, This is an example why I don't believe at my age (70+) I would ever consider an attempt at fine points - I don't have enough years left for a 1 man project. I am going to let it go at a mechanically safe vehicle that has enough curb appeal to not embarrass myself.

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Old 07-21-2017, 11:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: Fine points

I'm 81 and agree with #4 above. Not enough years to get it done right so why do it half way? I can enjoy a good running machine that looks like a survivor and doesn't have pressing safety problems. My roadster and coupe fit that bill, though I do wish the coupe looked better, I could hardly ask for a better running machine. No idea of the history of the engine, 94 psi per hole and no oil filter or external piping, so I doubt it has pressure oiling or inserts, though I really don't know.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fine points

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Originally Posted by daveymc29 View Post
I'm 81 and agree with #4 above. Not enough years to get it done right so why do it half way? I can enjoy a good running machine that looks like a survivor and doesn't have pressing safety problems. My roadster and coupe fit that bill, though I do wish the coupe looked better, I could hardly ask for a better running machine. No idea of the history of the engine, 94 psi per hole and no oil filter or external piping, so I doubt it has pressure oiling or inserts, though I really don't know.
I agree, and it's just fine to maintain and enjoy, or you can even make some small restoration steps while driving.

Actually not while driving, but while keeping it drivable.
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:06 AM   #7
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Default Re: Fine points

Why is it all or nothing? Why not do it 1/2 way? Is it not just as easy to replace a part with an original restored part or even a "correct" reproduction part as it is an incorrect reproduction part? Several vendors have descriptions that call out a part they sell is "right" for the year of your car. Is it not as easy to paint a part the same color as it left the factory as it is to just paint it?
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Fine points

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Originally Posted by aermotor View Post

Brent, This is an example why I don't believe at my age (70+) I would ever consider an attempt at fine points - I don't have enough years left for a 1 man project. I am going to let it go at a mechanically safe vehicle that has enough curb appeal to not embarrass myself.

John
So why did you ask? I agree with Mike and at least do part of it.

Listen, I am the first to agree that it isn't easy, ...but then again I like challenges. As far as having enough years left, ...I am not sure exactly how many years you do have left, --but then again, I'm not sure how you know how many years you have left either! You may very well live to be 100 as I see plenty other guys out there that age.

I will tell you that it generally take about 2000+ man-hours to do a nice fine-point restoration. Therefore if you devoted about 5 hours a day for an average of 4 days a week, in around 2 years you could completely restore an average Model-A into a really nice vehicle. Now on the other hand, if you have less than two years to live, you might want to take up a different short-term hobby.
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Old 07-22-2017, 07:09 PM   #9
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Fine points

In my opinion, an all original vehicle is always a very educational item to observe and appreciate.

Those Model A owners who strive to keep their vintage vehicles original should be as highly respected as those who succumb to creating driver type vehicles.

Those vintage vehicles which were totally butchered to create hot-rods appear to always wind up in the dump ....... oh well ?

All original type vehicles allow those interested to see what our ancestors did with the very limited technology that was available to them in their lifetime ..... buggies and carriages in museums without engines are no different ...... as well as the first airplanes that could barely leave the ground.

One future day, many of our offspring will see that we are no different in experiencing some of the most antiquated technology today when compared to what the future holds.
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: Fine points

I have watched this thread and have hesitated to say anything at all, but would offer this comment.

I have restored two vehicles for fine point consideration and prior to that I have restored a lot of race cars. One is the Bill Elliott stock car that is in the Ford museum in Dearborn and a long time ago I restored a Richard Petty car that was displayed at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, D.C. At one of the times I attended the Hershey swap meet I met a gentleman from the Smithsonian that remembered the Petty car and we got into a discussion regarding Model A restorations. This gentleman was not aware of the term 'fine point' but referred to them as the '500 point cars'.

His comment was to the effect that Henry Ford was the greatest singular contributor to the Industrial Revolution here in the US, and that because of the abundance of information at the Ford Archives relative to other brands of automobiles from that era, that he felt that the '500 point cars' were American Icons bordering National Treasures. This might not sit well with those who belittle those 'trailer queens' but I can see his point.

Having said that I would encourage you to take advantage of the available information and do your best to replicate your own piece of American History, but would stop there and not suggest that you consider entering a car in Fine Point Judging in either club.

I have deleted the balance of my comments regarding fine point judging, as I still have a few friends in that arena.
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Last edited by RockHillWill; 07-23-2017 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 07-23-2017, 05:25 AM   #11
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Default Re: Fine points

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
if you have less than two years to live, you might want to take up a different short-term hobby.
Reminds me of the older fellow that was so cautious in that regard that he wouldn't buy green bananas.
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