1940 Front Wheel Cylinders

[mike42]

Hey Guys ....

Just took the left wheel cylinder apart and one of the plungers came out very easy & the other was locked up. Finally was able to get it out and some work.

I bought a small hone and was wondering how much honing has to be done and when do I know I'm complete ? Also...do I use brake fluid to keep it wet as I'm doing it or something like 3 in 1 type oil ?

Thx very much.

Mike

[19Fordy]

First, look and see if interior of wheel cylinder is pitted. If it is, probably time for a new one. Hone using brake fluid as the lubricant and you might be able to save it. Check the plunger also as they deteriorate and become pitted also. Buy a wheel cylinder repair kit. Here's a start but, lots of places sell the parts.
https://www.ebay.com/b/Brake-Wheel-C.../bn_7063924290

[mike42]

Thx Fordy. I'm cleaning things up right now so I can scope it all out !!

Thx again !

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by mike42

Thx Fordy. I'm cleaning things up right now so I can scope it all out !!

Thx again !

One more thought. Even if you have to buy new wheel cylinder, save the old ones as at some point down the road you can get it re-sleeved. I this White post restorations used to do it. Maybe they still do. Here's a few companies that re sleeve wheel cylinders. At some point OEM wheel cylinders will be impossible to find.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by mike42

Thx Fordy. I'm cleaning things up right now so I can scope it all out !!

Thx again !

I'd recently purchased good quality cylinders from Mike Driskell. I would suggest you replace the cylinders. Considering the minimal cost, just do it.

[mike42]

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Guys ....I clean everything up and there is no pitting at all. The plungers were coated with what looked like shellac ! I clean them up with my brush wheel and put back into the cylinder and they now fit and move just fine. I think things were just gummed up after sitting all those years. I'm getting the drum turned and will have it this week and will put everything back together by the weekend I hope to see how things go. I bought "speed bleeders" and will try them out too.

If this doesn't work I will buy new cylinders.

I have the tool to remove the rear hubs as I heard that can be a bitch of a job.

Thx for the help.

Mike

[19Fordy]

Mike: To be safe you might want to do all 4 wheels and the master cylinder. They probably all have "build up" of crud.

[russcc]

Suggest you reassemble the wheel cylinders with Mckay brake cylinder lube, available on Ebay, $10, incl shipping.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by russcc

Suggest you reassemble the wheel cylinders with Mckay brake cylinder lube, available on Ebay, $10, incl shipping.

Yes, and for good reason. Assembly lube does NOT attract moisture. Never-ever-ever assemble with the pistons wet with brake fluid. That's what causes them to gum up, stick, and eventually rust. JMHO

[mike42]

Fordy.....I'm only doing one wheel at a time. Last time I put on brakes was 1963 on my 1956 Ford Convert !! Long time ago, so I'm taking my time to learn of the first one.

Russ & Bob .....good point on the assembly grease ! Thx on that.

Picked up the drum yesterday and the guy told me that this is a good piece of steel to work with and that I have a lot more material that could come off as needed. These are original with Ford Logo. Only 86,000 miles on the car.

Thx all....Mike

[19Fordy]

Sounds good Mike. Let us know how it all works out.
You were fortunate to find such good OEM drums. Well done.

[joe 1950]

Be sure to rebuild with new cyl. kits never rebuild with old seals and cups

[mike42]

Joe ...yes new kit with seals from C & G made in USA.

I used some brake cleaner to clean out the cylinder and I then used a very light coating of the packing grease on the inside and assembled. They slide well.

Another question....at the bottom of the new shoes....there is a hole that an insert goes into. I had to take out the ones from the old shoes and cleaned them up. Do those inserts go in a special way ?

The shoe with more service braking material goes to the front. Am I correct on that ?

I really appreciate all your help !!!

Mike

[russcc]

The holes in the shoes & brass eccentric cams and anchor bolts at the bottom of the shoes adjust the position of the shoes on '40 brakes. Suggest you see if you can find Rumble seat's post on brakes. He did an excellent job, bless his soul. The bottom adjusters s/be installed a specific way, with dots or arrows facing each other. I mark the backing plate as to where the lobe of the adjusters will be when the they are installed correctly, and orient the eccentrics in the shoes to line up with the adjusters before installing them. It makes it a lot easier than trying to find the right place to put the adjusters in so they line up right.

[JSeery]

Mike, the longer shoe (more brake liner material) goes toward the front on Lockheed brakes.

[mike42]

Russ and Seery thx. Installing the shoes today.

Mike

[mike42]

I forgot to tell you guys something......when drums were turned I asked about new bearings and seals. They recommended I replace them and I did so. Funny thing is....the Bearing Race made in China.....Bearing made in Japan......Seal made in USA ! Then to top it all off.....the small 3” link that goes between the lower adjustment bolts came in plastic bags with Bob Drake printed on them. The links were “USED” !!!! Not even cleaned up to at least look presentable ! Could not believe it, but thats the World we live-in !

Mike

[mike42]

All done and it is leaking somewhere ! May just buy new wheel cylinders and go that route.

Thx...Mike

[1931 flamingo]

Where is it leaking??


I myself would have gone with new ones in the beginning.
Paul in CT

[mike42]

I didn’t have time to investigate as I had to go somewhere. Will look into it in morning. This was a good learning experience if nothing else. Never did it before. Probably will end up buying new.

Thx.....mike

[rbone]

Here are the part numbers if you decide to buy new. Surprisingly, you can get them on RockAuto, and they are less expensive there.

Wheel cylinder front left 8264 (should include crush washer for hose fitting)
Wheel cylinder front right 8265 (should include crush washer for hose fitting)
Wheel cylinder rear left 8266
Wheel cylinder rear right 8267
Master cylinder M1050 (crush washers are 15mm for outlet banjo bolt)
Front hoses BH7600 (requires 2)

I also bought new shoes from them, and they fit perfectly.

[mike42]

Hmmmmm....no leak this morning and brake pedal is solid !! The drama continues !!

[mike42]

rbone ...

Thx for the info. I was thinking about Rock and I may give them a try. Right now I have to figure out why there is no leak this morning. This is strange as hell. Thx again for the info about Rock Numbers !

Mike

[1931 flamingo]

What fluid are you using??
Paul in CT

[mike42]

Paul.....DOT 3 .....waiting for the second drum to be cut. Found the leak problem and all set right now.

[1931 flamingo]

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Good news ! !
Paul in CT

[earlyride]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Mike, the longer shoe (more brake liner material) goes toward the front on Lockheed brakes.

Normally the longer shoe goes to the rear, are the lockheed brakes different than, lets say bendix or any other shoe brand? Just asking

[rich b]

Originally Posted by earlyride

Normally the longer shoe goes to the rear, are the lockheed brakes different than, lets say bendix or any other shoe brand? Just asking

Yes, Lockheed is a double anchor design; while Bendix is a single anchor, self-energizing design.

If you look at the Lockheed brake the front shoe pushes into it's anchor and does the most of the work when stopping; thus the larger piston and longer lining.

With the Bendix brake the leading shoe drives into the trailing shoe which pushes into the anchor; the trailing shoe does more of the work so the lining is longer.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by earlyride

Normally the longer shoe goes to the rear, are the lockheed brakes different than, lets say bendix or any other shoe brand? Just asking

What Rich posted. This throws a lot of people that are not familiar with the lockheed brakes.

[mike42]

Guys the drawings and manual i have show the larger shoe to the front. That’s the way they came off. I don’t know if I have Bendix or Lockheed though. Don’t understand the difference sorry ! Geez....I got everything together and have a seal leak at the larger end of cylinder. Just took it all apart again. I have new plunger seals and will try another one and hone out a bit more too. What a learning process this is !!!!!

[Hal Beatty]

If the wheel cylinder has a larger piston on the front end, you have Lockheed brakes...

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by mike42

Guys the drawings and manual i have show the larger shoe to the front. That’s the way they came off. I don’t know if I have Bendix or Lockheed though. Don’t understand the difference sorry ! Geez....I got everything together and have a seal leak at the larger end of cylinder. Just took it all apart again. I have new plunger seals and will try another one and hone out a bit more too. What a learning process this is !!!!!

Unless they have been changed out, all the pre-49 Ford cars are Lockheed brakes. You really need to know which are which, because the way they are adjusted are very different. If you are using a manual for the correct time period that should be giving you the correct information.

[mike42]

Guys I hope the manual is correct as I don’t want to go through this again ! Everything put back together and will bleed the brakes tomorrow after golf. The leak was because the top end of the shoe that fits into the plunger slot in cylinder was not in correctly. My fault for not seeing it. Using speed bleeders and I heard they’re pretty good. I have the rears to do in Spring.

Thx for all the info.

Mike

[JSeery]

You really can't mix up Lockheed and Bendix brakes, they are so different it is totally obvious. You should be fine. Only catch is Lockheed brakes can be a lot more difficult to set up, so be sure your manual has detailed instructions and if not, ask here on the Barn. Someone can provide you with the adjustment procedures.

[mike42]

I checked with a car guy buddy of mine and he said I have Lockheed thank God !! Don't want to go through this again trust me ! Things "Can" get screwed up if you don't know what you're doing !!

The second wheel cylinder is leaking and I can't stop it, so I ordered 2 wheel cylinders today. Should have done that at the beginning, but how did I know !!

Thx much !

Mike

[mike42]

New Wheel Cylinders arrive tomorrow. I went ahead and bought a new Master Cylinder from NAPA and going to attempt that installation today. Have to Bench Bleed before I do though.

Anything I should look out for when installing the Master ?

Thx....Mike

[35fordtn]

Be cautious and watch the wheel cylinders while bleeding to be sure they don’t leak past the cup. Most new ones being sold are pretty poor quality depending on where you get them

[mike42]

35....I bought them from C & G and I've had good luck with their products, but I will check. Any hints on how to bleed the Master ?

Thx....Mike

[35fordtn]

C&G does sell decent cylinders. I dont bench bleed the master cylinder personally. I just install fill and bleed the brakes as normal.

[Hal Beatty]

I've never bench bled the single master cylinders and haven't had any issues. Dual masters... now THAT is another matter.

[rich b]

We usually mill the slot in the large piston letting it sit further out in bore so the cup doesn't overlap the miss-drilled porting (and leak) in those "high" quality wheel cylinders.

If you compare the location of the hole in your old wheel cylinder with the new ones; you should be able to see if you rec'd the better parts.

[cas3]

excellent idea Rich

[mike42]

Guys thx for the input. I'll check all this out. Just got notice my Wheel Cyl's. won't be here until Monday now. Hell....in Northern Michigan it could be snowing by then !!

Thx again......Mike

[mike42]

On the Master Cylinder....does the rubber boot go "over" the round thin flange or does it go outside that round flange ?

Thx....Mike

[mike42]

Crap...new wheel cylinder leaks and had to send back and get another. This is going to take awhile for all for wheels !!

Mike

[35fordtn]

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Are you using reproduction shoes? While a lot of the cylinders being sold are junk, there is also a issue that the portion of the shoes on the NEW reproduction shoes that the piston pushes against is made too long and has to be ground down.