Re-Stamping Engine Number / Frame Number

[Bob Bidonde]

Every once in a while a post is made regarding stamping engine / frame numbers. I want to remind all that this is illegal in many states as it is seen by their DMVs as altering the VIN. I almost lost my Victoria to the DMV for doing so. I will never again ask the DMV to register a Model "A" with a changed engine / frame number.

[Chris in WNC]

Suit yourself.
Sounds like the NY DMV has way too much time on their hands or you got an unusually anal-retentive inspector.
I have never and will never hesitate to stamp a legitimate serial # on a replacement block.
Done it without problems in FL and NC.
"your results may vary"

[1crosscut]

I understand what you are saying but if I blow an engine am I then cursed with forever non matching numbers and title.

I'm in the going to re-stamp camp.

[Bob Bidonde]

I feel your angst about this issue. I suggest that this topic not be posted for public consumption as the someone from a DMV may be watching.

[WHN]

As I have mentioned before on this site, I have registered many cars in both New York and Connecticut over the last 45 years.

I have “NEVER” had anyone at DMV ask to look at a cars engine number. They just wanted to make sure that the paperwork was correct and supported what I was trying to accomplish.

Showing a trail of ownership is a must. How many Model A’s are running around with there original engine still in place? How many have a replacement engine that has been re stamped with the originals number?

I have never felt that the DMV people didn’t want to be helpful, but they might be frustrated by people trying to get things done without good or complete supporting documentation.

Plan the work, and work the plan. You will get it done.

[Chris in WNC]

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Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

I feel your angst about this issue. I suggest that this topic not be posted for public consumption as the someone from a DMV may be watching.

Anything's possible, I suppose, but can't imagine them trolling message boards for a "gotcha" on a non-fraud Model A re-stamp.....

[Rodrelic]

I lived there for way too long. DMV does not want to let you get what you need, their goal is to deny. No ‘spect for any NY bureaucracy. Pennsylvania was much better, Florida I get everything done every time.

[sinbad339]

Originally Posted by WHN

...
I have “NEVER” had anyone at DMV ask to look at a cars engine number. They just wanted to make sure that the paperwork was correct and supported what I was trying to accomplish.

....

I bought my '30 Sport Coupe from New York, and it didn't have a title as New York doesn't title cars as old as this. To register it in Ohio, I had to show the VIN number to the DMV, which meant showing them the number stamped on the engine.

[eagle]

One thing FOR SURE... when you take an engine out of your A and sell it for scrap or otherwise, remove the number from the block. Someone may repair the engine at some point and then try to get a title with your VIN.

[1crosscut]

So the engine grenades in your car. It is non salvageable.
What is the best route to go then?
Do you put a different engine in the car and try to change the title to match the engine? If you do that you then don't match the number on the frame.
If you do try to change the title to match the replacement engine do you have to get a bonded title since you don't know the whole history of the replacement engine?
Can/will your local DMV do a national search using the numbers on the replacement engine to see if it is stolen or already in use?

Or do you just go ahead put the replacement engine in and do nothing.
Let's say you do that. 5 or 10 years from now you want to sell the car.
Hard to do because the numbers on the engine don't match the title.
Hmmm...

I own several diamond blocks that were never in a car. They don't have what would be considered a Model A "serial number"
If I grind one of those numbers off and re-stamp it am I breaking the law?

How many of us have good Model A blocks sitting under the work bench that at some point can be put back into service. Since they already have a number on them are they no longer good?

What are folks doing for the new Burtz blocks. Are you stamping the numbers from the engine your replacing onto the new block?

If an engine builder grinds the numbers off on an engine block that they have rebuilt leaving a blank number pad that can be re-stamped. (commonly done) Are they breaking the law?

Just some rambling thoughts.

[CarlG]

I got my engine from my engine builder with a blank number pad.

[ronn]

as they say.......

the greatest "fear" is fear itself

some of us have no problem sleeping at night.

Ive had many a sleepless night. lol

[denis4x4]

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

Anything's possible, I guess, but I can't imagine them trolling message boards for a "gotcha" on a non-fraud Model A re-stamp.....

You never can tell.....years ago when I was writing ads for speed equipment manufacturers, I got a call from a client with a letter from the FTC asking for documentation on some claims in the copy. Seems an FTC guy was reading his son's HOT ROD magazine on the pot and decided to make waves. Had to jump through some hoops and got my wrist slapped before the issue went away.

[PalAl]

As they say in Chicago
"I have no recollection of something like dis ever being done, and I suggest yous don't either"

[David in San Antonio]

In August 2022 I registered a 1931 Deluxe Coupe. The title was from Pennsylvania and showed a serial number. The DMV insisted on seeing a VIN, not a serial number, and referred us to the county sheriff department auto theft investigator to adjudicate. He turned out to be quite knowledgeable about Model A’s including the possibility that the serial number is stamped on the frame, and obscured by the body. Also that when the car was restored in 1957 the serial number may have been sanded into oblivion. And that the engine number is not the same as the serial number of the frame. He gave it the old Texas never-say-quit effort including pulling the floorboards and searching with a flashlight on the off chance the hand-stamped serial number might be eyeballed if the body didn’t cover it. Nope.
The car had been in the seller’s family for 65 years and he showed the investigator a thick folder full of receipts and old registration papers from Pennsylvania. The inspector said he enjoyed seeing a beautiful antique, a refreshing change from the usual home-built trailers and Frankenstein specials cobbled together from several wrecks. A few sherrif’s deputies drifted out of the building to look and conversate (a Texas word) including one older, rather rotund gentleman with a gold badge. I guess he outranked the others. After a good hour of cooperative effort to locate the elusive serial number the investigator allowed that The State of Texas would accept the serial number from the Pennsylvania title, even though no one could say for certain why Pennsylvania put it on the title in the first place. But first he did enter it into the computer and was satisfied it was not stolen. Besides, the extensive documentation showing an unbroken line of ownership over 65 years with each owner having the same last name as it was passed from father to son, then to another son (the seller).
Everybody standing around, deputies, investigators, the chief-looking guy, several citizens waiting for their turn - was happily satisfied to have seen the Model A Ford that day. We took the Sheriff’s document of approval back to the DMV where the nice people there knew us on sight. We’d been there 3 times already. I left out several steps from this account which is already way too long. But if you’ve come this far, stick around. Because the DMV person realized that the Pennsylvania title didn’t document the car’s weight. No problem, I quickly found the official avoirdupois online. But nope. We had to show a certified weight. I was nearly certifiable by that time. She allowed it might could work without a weight filled in but we wouldn’t know until she submitted the paperwork to the central DMV. It probably would sail through, but it might be rejected. Ever sober and desirous of following the regulations, we drove it to a truck stop. There in return for $14 we received a certified weight affidavit. Just in case the paperwork was kicked back because it lacked a certified weight.
I was surprised that the little roadster was about 150 pounds heavier than the online guide. Turns out there was 150 pounds of spare parts in the trunk and under the seat, including a rear axle half shaft. This fit perfectly between the frame rails under the seat as if it belonged there. A few days later I received the Antique Auto license plate (rear only in the case of Antique Autos. What I learned: the Model A will train me to be patient and cheerful even in n the face of multiple frustrating steps. Or if I didn’t learn that lesson, the car would certainly break me. Just keep breathing and grinning. We celebrated by going out to lunch. And later that day we realized that someone had keyed the paint on one of the doors. Keep breathing. Don’t know if it was in the DMV parking lot, or when we were eating lunch.

[JoeCB]

David, It was a entertaining and even humorous story until I got the "key" part... sad, very sad, what the hexx kind of a - hole would do such to a beautiful old car.

Joe B

[Robert/Texas]

David, I guess that I was even luckier than you were. The last old Ford that I bought was registered in Washington state. It is a 1937 Fordor. I brought the signed Washington state title to the Brenham Texas court house and they registered it without anyone even looking at the car. When I got a pair of YOM license plates all I had to do was to show them the plates and they approved them on the spot.

[TomInCologne]

just a comment:


re-stamped metal can easily be proven by the use of acids, so don't think that an expert can be fooled. Re-stamping an engine may or may not be a criminal offence where you live, i don't know. Here in germany it may be seen as fraud by a judge.


This may be huge problem to a possible buyer of your car. When i was looking for an A, i found a very nice one on Ohio. I was very close to finishing the deal when we found out that the engine number was not the number on the title. re-stamping would have been one way out. But the american customs, the european customs or the local police could have checked the engine number, decided it was re-stamped and confiscated the car, leaving me with a few thousand Euros less in the petty cash and no A.


Re-stamping may be fine in your situation but it can have devastating effects on a possible buyer...

[Bruce of MN]

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

Anything's possible, I guess, but I can't imagine them trolling message boards for a "gotcha" on a non-fraud Model A re-stamp.....

Maybe as a punishment detail? Or the underling gets interested and buys his own Model A!

[ronn]

There are many things I 'WOULDNT' do in Germany. Your country is far stricter then here in the US.

With all of the import taxes, I wouldnt own an oldtimer in all of Europe.