The Ford Barn

TDS · 07-12-2016, 04:55 PM

I need help to solve an ignition issue.

I use a stock 1935 distributor with an external coil and I got a clear blue spark at the sparkplugs. Tested on the sparkplug wires.
I also checked the sparkplugs today and found 2 not working - number 3 and 6.
I’m using Champion D16 but I ordered 8 new Motorcraft instead.
The Champion plugs fails every time they get wet from gasoline.

I replaced the points and the vacuum brake in the distributor.
When I give the engine some rev it both back- and after fires.

The carb is a new Stromberg with 0.048 jets and a 65 power valve.

I have tried to setup the distributor by TDC on number one and set the ignition to 4 degrees BTDC by moving the plate 2 lines clockwise to get 4 degrees advance.

But I'm pretty sure I done something wrong.

I don’t have access to at timing device and living in Denmark it’s hard/impossible to find someone that can setup the distributor correct.

Does someone have a bullet proof method for this?

petehoovie · 07-12-2016, 05:06 PM

Is it a Stromberg 94 carb? Did it backfire through the carb?

Willit Stop · 07-12-2016, 06:06 PM

Here's some basics that you're probably aware of. Just trying to help:
Points should be .012-.014 (new points .015.) They are off set a little so they must set individually.In other words...adjust one set on the high point of the cam.Then rotate the cam until the other set is on a high point and set that one.
Grease the vac brake piston a little.Piston goes in first followed by the spring then the cap.Back the vac brake adjusting screw all the way out (with fingers lightly) then in 1-1/2 to 2 turns.
Hopefully, the power valve is still OK.

JSeery · 07-12-2016, 07:33 PM

Not sure why you would need to find TDC on a 35? You set the distributor up off of the car and then alien the tab on the distributor with the slot on the cam.

Brian · 07-12-2016, 11:40 PM

I have read 1935 Ford literature somewhere, sometime, about setting the distributor by finding TDC #1, moving the timing plate up [clockwise] with ignition on until spark occurs, then moving the plate up ONE more notch, which gives the initial 4 degree advance. Lock it up there. however.....
I don't think the problem is necessarily here [although, by moving the plate up TWO notches, you've advanced it 8 degrees- each notch represents 4 degrees].
You need to pull the distributor and set the points as previously described by another poster. You can't be too far off if it starts and runs, but check it again. Set the initial timing as I've described. I find a vacuum gauge to be an invaluable diagnostic tool in cases like this.
Good luck, enjoy the learning process.

koates · 07-13-2016, 03:42 AM

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Follow all the good info posted above, But are you sure you have not got a couple of spark plug leads crossed over in the caps or at the plugs. This will cause a backfire. Check each lead right from the numbered position in the two caps to its correct corresponding spark plug. Do this after you have set up and refitted the distributer. Regards, Kevin.

sortkaffekop · 07-13-2016, 04:20 AM

Hej TDS! Hilsen fra Chr. i Kolding!
I have just gone through the long process of making my 60 2.2 flathead a good runner: What I did: New fuel pump. New fuel line. (Are you sure its not fuel problems?) New coil - condenser-plugwires-dist. top-rotor-points (set at 0.25mm). New plugs: NGK B5HS (fra t.hansen). And bypassing the resistor reducing coil voltage... Adjusting idle screws-controlling float level. Remember: If it runs - you can just adjust timing by trial and error...) Think thats about it... Held og lykke!

TDS · 07-13-2016, 06:39 AM

Hi all
The issue is that I replaced or rebuild every single engine part after I had the engine rebuild in a shop.
It includes:
Oil pump
Fuel pump
Coil
Distributor
Fuel line og vacuum line
Sparkplug wires
Sparkplugs
Stater motor
Water pumps
Dynamo
Carburetor
And that makes it harder to pin point the problem.

The distributor is setup by number one at TDC using my autometer.
The points is set to 0.014 and they close exactly at TDC and then I advanced the spark by 2 notches on the distributor plate.
The method is from “Ignitions” (flathead) that is available on web. Is this document it says every nots is 2 degrees.
It idles great but will not take rev without back- and after fire.
I only turned the vacuum brake screw in 1 turn. Will try to turn it in one more turn.
What should the vacuum readings on the intake manifold be at idle 450 rpm and above idle rpm?
I also suspect the vacuum brake or the vacuum line to be leaking so I don’t get the suction on the brake and I therefore not getting enough advance?
The carb is a new Stromberg 97. I used a rebuild Holley 94 before but I thought the carburetor was the problem and got myself a new one.
Same same after this :-I
Starting the car makes a cloud of unburnt gas especially a higher rpm. So it can’t be fuel starvation issue.
I’m getting the new sparkplugs tomorrow. I guess I will go through the sparkplug wires today to check that I haven’t made a fault here…

JSeery · 07-13-2016, 07:18 AM

How are you establishing TDC? Was your engine pulley marked for TDC and a pointer installed during the rebuild?

Hoop · 07-13-2016, 07:35 AM

TDS,

A couple of comments on the distributor:

1. I'm not sure of what has been done to the distributor and how thorough the rebuild was. Frequently the weights that advance the timing will be stuck. This is not unusual at all. If you want to focus on timing, you should verify that the advance weights are operating properly.

2. On the adjustment for the initial advance, please understand that instructions that you read ... and that are given here ... are not always very clear. It is difficult to explain, for example, "up" or "down" or "clockwise", etc. On a stock 1935 "helmet" distributor, the center "notch" should be TDC if the points are gapped correctly. TO ME, "down" on a helmet means moving the index to a mark lower than the center mark ... the third from the bottom is usually correct for initial advance. (On a "crab" distributor, the index is on the other side. So "down" is now "up" ... see what I mean?)

3. Initial advance is 4 degrees. You have read that each "notch" is 2 degrees and that is correct. HOWEVER, that is 2 degrees of distributor rotation, not 2 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Crankshaft = 2X distributor rotation so one "notch" is really 4 degrees crankshaft and is the correct specification.

Hope the above helps eliminate some areas of concern.

(Many of us are not fond of using an external coil because of differing qualities of the adapters available. Not suggesting that it is your problem ... just a mention.)

Held og lykke for sure.

sortkaffekop · 07-13-2016, 09:09 AM

I know the tiresome process of diagnosting misfires - hope followed by disapointment... Just one thought here: Are you SURE the fuelpump is delivering enough?? (I rebuild mine - car started but would not rev. Ended up buying new one).
Do let us know of your progress!
Chr.

TDS · 07-13-2016, 10:23 AM

Hi Hoop
Thanks a lot - that makes sense.
Will have another look at the distributor. You make it sound pretty simple :-).
I'm used to set timing by a timing light so this is all new for me.

Fun to find another Dane in Fordbarn :-)

JSeery · 07-13-2016, 10:27 AM

Hoop, what is the significance of having the engine at TDC? Why would it make any difference where the engine was indexed? The tag will only go into the cam slot in one position (unless you force it 180 out).

Hoop · 07-13-2016, 02:47 PM

"Hoop, what is the significance of having the engine at TDC? Why would it make any difference where the engine was indexed?"

Understanding the system certainly can do no harm. Knowing the relationship of the marks on the advance/retard plate goes toward understanding the whole system. AND you are correct ... Ford intended points replacement and adjustment to be done by common folk with no special mechanical skills. Just follow the instructions and not worry about TDC.

If you do a bunch of distributors, you'll find that the advance/retard will generally end up one "notch" or mark off the center. It's one of those things that dawns on you. If you are stuck with nothing other than a feeler gauge, and set the points at .015, and set the advance one mark off center ... the car will run fine unless there are other problems.

There are other marginally significant features of the helmet distributor that are rarely mentioned. The hole in the bottom of the housing ... according to the patent, it had another purpose other than as a possible drain. Interesting to know how the engineers envisioned the ignition system.

JSeery · 07-13-2016, 02:56 PM

Agree with all of what you are saying, just don't see any benefit to installing the distributor with the engine at TDC. Now if you went to the trouble to establishing a true TDC and had good marks on the pulley that would help with using a timing light to check the timing and advance (something I do on my engines). But even with that I don't see how it would help with the initial bolting up of the distributor. Just me I guess!

Hoop · 07-13-2016, 03:16 PM

"Agree with all of what you are saying, just don't see any benefit to installing the distributor with the engine at TDC."

I may have not be clear. I did not suggest that the distributor be installed with the engine at TDC.

What I said (or meant to) was the center mark most likely represents TDC if the points are gapped correctly.

Setting the engine to TDC is not the same thing and was certainly not intended.

(As I said, clear explanations can be a bitch.)

Floyd · 07-13-2016, 04:11 PM

I marked TDC and added pointers on my 32 and 40 when I rebuilt them. However I only use them with a timing light to check on advance operation.
The best way (only way?) to set up the distributor is off the car. Using a feeler gauge will get it to run Ok. However, as I recently found out, the K R Wilson distributor set up tool is really the only way to go. I have had dizzys that I adjusted and ran good, but testing them on the KR Wilson, they were off, sometimes quite a bit. After the Wilson set up they both ran terrific. Also measuring the point gaps after setting them up on the Wilson unit, the gaps varied widely. So saying .012, .014, ,.015 really does not even get you close. The left hand point gap controls the timing and it can only be set correctly with a machine because the actual gap dimension is meaningless. .With the tester, you can get the dwell exactly right for each set of points, get the overlap perfect and most importantly the timing correct. I thought I was , good with the feeler gauge. Turns out, not so much. I borrower the K R Wilson tester from a friend. It is well worth the time to fine one to borrow.
Just my opinion

Hoop · 07-13-2016, 06:28 PM

Floyd,

Please go back and read my posts. Put them in context of the original poster's questions.

"TDS" is in DENMARK. He does not have access to a timing device.

Try telling him something that will help him and that he can work with.

I do not know where you live ... be a good idea to tell us ... unless you are in the witness protection program. I am in Jacksonville, FL, and have numerous timing devices including KRW fixtures and a bunch of Sun distributor testers. You are welcome to come on over use anything you want ... but, for the time being, why not offer "TDS" some help to narrow down his problems?

With respect, taking this discussion off on a tangent will not help him.

Willit Stop · 07-13-2016, 06:50 PM

TDS...If you have access to a vacuum gauge this might help. Just click on the different scenarios.It will show how the gauge reacts to certain conditions.
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

35fordtn · 07-13-2016, 07:39 PM

I hope you have not used "NEW" reproduction 1932-36 points. They are total junk. If you set by gap on the reproduction points your dwell would be way too low.

You may check resistance between the inner distributor cap to the end of the plug wires to be certain the are making a connection, and obviously be certain they are routed correctly. Some of the inner caps do not have brass exposed on the sidewalls of the plug wire holes.

07-12-2016, 05:06 PM	#2
petehoovie Senior Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 8,194	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Is it a Stromberg 94 carb? Did it backfire through the carb? __________________ The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... *"Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!"* "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0

07-12-2016, 06:06 PM	#3
Willit Stop Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Eureka Calif. Posts: 969	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Here's some basics that you're probably aware of. Just trying to help: Points should be .012-.014 (new points .015.) They are off set a little so they must set individually.In other words...adjust one set on the high point of the cam.Then rotate the cam until the other set is on a high point and set that one. Grease the vac brake piston a little.Piston goes in first followed by the spring then the cap.Back the vac brake adjusting screw all the way out (with fingers lightly) then in 1-1/2 to 2 turns. Hopefully, the power valve is still OK.

07-12-2016, 07:33 PM	#4
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Not sure why you would need to find TDC on a 35? You set the distributor up off of the car and then alien the tab on the distributor with the slot on the cam.

07-12-2016, 11:40 PM	#5
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,836	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help I have read 1935 Ford literature somewhere, sometime, about setting the distributor by finding TDC #1, moving the timing plate up [clockwise] with ignition on until spark occurs, then moving the plate up ONE more notch, which gives the initial 4 degree advance. Lock it up there. however..... I don't think the problem is necessarily here [although, by moving the plate up TWO notches, you've advanced it 8 degrees- each notch represents 4 degrees]. You need to pull the distributor and set the points as previously described by another poster. You can't be too far off if it starts and runs, but check it again. Set the initial timing as I've described. I find a vacuum gauge to be an invaluable diagnostic tool in cases like this. Good luck, enjoy the learning process. __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

07-13-2016, 03:42 AM	#6
koates Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Melbourne Australia. Posts: 2,080	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Follow all the good info posted above, But are you sure you have not got a couple of spark plug leads crossed over in the caps or at the plugs. This will cause a backfire. Check each lead right from the numbered position in the two caps to its correct corresponding spark plug. Do this after you have set up and refitted the distributer. Regards, Kevin.

07-12-2016, 04:55 PM	#1
TDS Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Denmark, Aarhus Posts: 49	Timing - 1935 flathead - help I need help to solve an ignition issue. I use a stock 1935 distributor with an external coil and I got a clear blue spark at the sparkplugs. Tested on the sparkplug wires. I also checked the sparkplugs today and found 2 not working - number 3 and 6. I’m using Champion D16 but I ordered 8 new Motorcraft instead. The Champion plugs fails every time they get wet from gasoline. I replaced the points and the vacuum brake in the distributor. When I give the engine some rev it both back- and after fires. The carb is a new Stromberg with 0.048 jets and a 65 power valve. I have tried to setup the distributor by TDC on number one and set the ignition to 4 degrees BTDC by moving the plate 2 lines clockwise to get 4 degrees advance. But I'm pretty sure I done something wrong. I don’t have access to at timing device and living in Denmark it’s hard/impossible to find someone that can setup the distributor correct. Does someone have a bullet proof method for this? __________________ 1935, Ford V8 "UTE", 221 rebuild flathead. Less is More

07-13-2016, 04:20 AM	#7
sortkaffekop Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Kolding, Denmark Posts: 129	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Hej TDS! Hilsen fra Chr. i Kolding! I have just gone through the long process of making my 60 2.2 flathead a good runner: What I did: New fuel pump. New fuel line. (Are you sure its not fuel problems?) New coil - condenser-plugwires-dist. top-rotor-points (set at 0.25mm). New plugs: NGK B5HS (fra t.hansen). And bypassing the resistor reducing coil voltage... Adjusting idle screws-controlling float level. Remember: If it runs - you can just adjust timing by trial and error...) Think thats about it... Held og lykke!

07-13-2016, 06:39 AM	#8
TDS Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Denmark, Aarhus Posts: 49	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Hi all The issue is that I replaced or rebuild every single engine part after I had the engine rebuild in a shop. It includes: Oil pump Fuel pump Coil Distributor Fuel line og vacuum line Sparkplug wires Sparkplugs Stater motor Water pumps Dynamo Carburetor And that makes it harder to pin point the problem. The distributor is setup by number one at TDC using my autometer. The points is set to 0.014 and they close exactly at TDC and then I advanced the spark by 2 notches on the distributor plate. The method is from “Ignitions” (flathead) that is available on web. Is this document it says every nots is 2 degrees. It idles great but will not take rev without back- and after fire. I only turned the vacuum brake screw in 1 turn. Will try to turn it in one more turn. What should the vacuum readings on the intake manifold be at idle 450 rpm and above idle rpm? I also suspect the vacuum brake or the vacuum line to be leaking so I don’t get the suction on the brake and I therefore not getting enough advance? The carb is a new Stromberg 97. I used a rebuild Holley 94 before but I thought the carburetor was the problem and got myself a new one. Same same after this :-I Starting the car makes a cloud of unburnt gas especially a higher rpm. So it can’t be fuel starvation issue. I’m getting the new sparkplugs tomorrow. I guess I will go through the sparkplug wires today to check that I haven’t made a fault here… __________________ 1935, Ford V8 "UTE", 221 rebuild flathead. Less is More Last edited by TDS; 07-13-2016 at 10:12 AM.

07-13-2016, 07:18 AM	#9
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help How are you establishing TDC? Was your engine pulley marked for TDC and a pointer installed during the rebuild?

07-13-2016, 07:35 AM	#10
Hoop Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 1,137	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help TDS, A couple of comments on the distributor: 1. I'm not sure of what has been done to the distributor and how thorough the rebuild was. Frequently the weights that advance the timing will be stuck. This is not unusual at all. If you want to focus on timing, you should verify that the advance weights are operating properly. 2. On the adjustment for the initial advance, please understand that instructions that you read ... and that are given here ... are not always very clear. It is difficult to explain, for example, "up" or "down" or "clockwise", etc. On a stock 1935 "helmet" distributor, the center "notch" should be TDC if the points are gapped correctly. TO ME, "down" on a helmet means moving the index to a mark lower than the center mark ... the third from the bottom is usually correct for initial advance. (On a "crab" distributor, the index is on the other side. So "down" is now "up" ... see what I mean?) 3. Initial advance is 4 degrees. You have read that each "notch" is 2 degrees and that is correct. HOWEVER, that is 2 degrees of distributor rotation, not 2 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Crankshaft = 2X distributor rotation so one "notch" is really 4 degrees crankshaft and is the correct specification. Hope the above helps eliminate some areas of concern. (Many of us are not fond of using an external coil because of differing qualities of the adapters available. Not suggesting that it is your problem ... just a mention.) Held og lykke for sure. __________________ "Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average."

07-13-2016, 09:09 AM	#11
sortkaffekop Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Kolding, Denmark Posts: 129	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help I know the tiresome process of diagnosting misfires - hope followed by disapointment... Just one thought here: Are you SURE the fuelpump is delivering enough?? (I rebuild mine - car started but would not rev. Ended up buying new one). Do let us know of your progress! Chr.

07-13-2016, 10:23 AM	#12
TDS Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Denmark, Aarhus Posts: 49	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Hi Hoop Thanks a lot - that makes sense. Will have another look at the distributor. You make it sound pretty simple :-). I'm used to set timing by a timing light so this is all new for me. Fun to find another Dane in Fordbarn :-) __________________ 1935, Ford V8 "UTE", 221 rebuild flathead. Less is More Last edited by TDS; 07-13-2016 at 10:36 AM.

07-13-2016, 10:27 AM	#13
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Hoop, what is the significance of having the engine at TDC? Why would it make any difference where the engine was indexed? The tag will only go into the cam slot in one position (unless you force it 180 out).

07-13-2016, 02:47 PM	#14
Hoop Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 1,137	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help "Hoop, what is the significance of having the engine at TDC? Why would it make any difference where the engine was indexed?" Understanding the system certainly can do no harm. Knowing the relationship of the marks on the advance/retard plate goes toward understanding the whole system. AND you are correct ... Ford intended points replacement and adjustment to be done by common folk with no special mechanical skills. Just follow the instructions and not worry about TDC. If you do a bunch of distributors, you'll find that the advance/retard will generally end up one "notch" or mark off the center. It's one of those things that dawns on you. If you are stuck with nothing other than a feeler gauge, and set the points at .015, and set the advance one mark off center ... the car will run fine unless there are other problems. There are other marginally significant features of the helmet distributor that are rarely mentioned. The hole in the bottom of the housing ... according to the patent, it had another purpose other than as a possible drain. Interesting to know how the engineers envisioned the ignition system. __________________ "Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average."

07-13-2016, 02:56 PM	#15
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Agree with all of what you are saying, just don't see any benefit to installing the distributor with the engine at TDC. Now if you went to the trouble to establishing a true TDC and had good marks on the pulley that would help with using a timing light to check the timing and advance (something I do on my engines). But even with that I don't see how it would help with the initial bolting up of the distributor. Just me I guess!

07-13-2016, 03:16 PM	#16
Hoop Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 1,137	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help "Agree with all of what you are saying, just don't see any benefit to installing the distributor with the engine at TDC." I may have not be clear. I did not suggest that the distributor be installed with the engine at TDC. What I said (or meant to) was the center mark most likely represents TDC if the points are gapped correctly. Setting the engine to TDC is not the same thing and was certainly not intended. (As I said, clear explanations can be a bitch.) __________________ "Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average."

07-13-2016, 04:11 PM	#17
Floyd Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 469	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help I marked TDC and added pointers on my 32 and 40 when I rebuilt them. However I only use them with a timing light to check on advance operation. The best way (only way?) to set up the distributor is off the car. Using a feeler gauge will get it to run Ok. However, as I recently found out, the K R Wilson distributor set up tool is really the only way to go. I have had dizzys that I adjusted and ran good, but testing them on the KR Wilson, they were off, sometimes quite a bit. After the Wilson set up they both ran terrific. Also measuring the point gaps after setting them up on the Wilson unit, the gaps varied widely. So saying .012, .014, ,.015 really does not even get you close. The left hand point gap controls the timing and it can only be set correctly with a machine because the actual gap dimension is meaningless. .With the tester, you can get the dwell exactly right for each set of points, get the overlap perfect and most importantly the timing correct. I thought I was , good with the feeler gauge. Turns out, not so much. I borrower the K R Wilson tester from a friend. It is well worth the time to fine one to borrow. Just my opinion

07-13-2016, 06:28 PM	#18
Hoop Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 1,137	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help Floyd, Please go back and read my posts. Put them in context of the original poster's questions. "TDS" is in DENMARK. He does not have access to a timing device. Try telling him something that will help him and that he can work with. I do not know where you live ... be a good idea to tell us ... unless you are in the witness protection program. I am in Jacksonville, FL, and have numerous timing devices including KRW fixtures and a bunch of Sun distributor testers. You are welcome to come on over use anything you want ... but, for the time being, why not offer "TDS" some help to narrow down his problems? With respect, taking this discussion off on a tangent will not help him. __________________ "Remember that when it comes to intelligence, half of all of us are below average."

07-13-2016, 06:50 PM	#19
Willit Stop Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Eureka Calif. Posts: 969	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help TDS...If you have access to a vacuum gauge this might help. Just click on the different scenarios.It will show how the gauge reacts to certain conditions. http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

07-13-2016, 07:39 PM	#20
35fordtn Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: McMinnville, TN Posts: 2,327	Re: Timing - 1935 flathead - help I hope you have not used "NEW" reproduction 1932-36 points. They are total junk. If you set by gap on the reproduction points your dwell would be way too low. You may check resistance between the inner distributor cap to the end of the plug wires to be certain the are making a connection, and obviously be certain they are routed correctly. Some of the inner caps do not have brass exposed on the sidewalls of the plug wire holes.