Rock Moss Green 28 Tudor???

[jeffo]

I asked a question yesterday about a restoration on a 28 tudor. I happened to mention that we are painting it Rock Moss. We knew that this would cause some debate. My Grandfather bought this car new on April 14th 1928. It had been on order for several months. We have the bill of sale but it does not list the color. The car had never been repainted until 1958 when my Father had it painted. At that time he went to an automotive paint store and picked a color that was as close as he could get. We are doing a complete restore now and we took the interior out which had never been out of the car so the original paint could be seen. We had our body man buff out a spot and we had it scanned by the paint shop and Rock Moss is the only color that came anywhere near it. I am fully aware that this was not a color listed for the 28 tudor but could this car have been painted Rock Moss? I know they had the paint because they offered it in the trucks. We Had test panels painted all of the 28 tudor colors and compared them, nothing was close. This is an early A so there were many changes going on at this time.

Got Us Puzzled,
Jeff

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by jeffo

I asked a question yesterday about a restoration on a 28 tudor. I happened to mention that we are painting it Rock Moss. We knew that this would cause some debate. My Grandfather bought this car new on April 14th 1928. It had been on order for several months. We have the bill of sale but it does not list the color. The car had never been repainted until 1958 when my Father had it painted. At that time he went to an automotive paint store and picked a color that was as close as he could get. We are doing a complete restore now and we took the interior out which had never been out of the car so the original paint could be seen. We had our body man buff out a spot and we had it scanned by the paint shop and Rock Moss is the only color that came anywhere near it. I am fully aware that this was not a color listed for the 28 tudor but could this car have been painted Rock Moss? I know they had the paint because they offered it in the trucks. We Had test panels painted all of the 28 tudor colors and compared them, nothing was close. This is an early A so there were many changes going on at this time.

Got Us Puzzled,
Jeff

Jeff, in 1928, the Branches (Factory) were pushing hard to meet demand. Even Fleet Concerns back then were not able to get special concessions at the Branch. At the Dealership level, bodyshops were in their infancy and I doubt very many shops had the capability to paint an entire vehicle during this time period. Therefore, the honest answer to your question is No.

[Roadster62]

Jeff, This is a special car, not many people have an A that was in the family since new, consider yourself to be very lucky. If it has been "Rock Moss" as long as you can remember and you like the look reshoot it and enjoy it. Bob

[Clem Clement]

Save some places to show the original color.

[jeffo]

My dad told me that when his grandfather ordered the car that he told the dealer he didn't care what color it was, he just wanted the first one that came in. I know that you could not special order colors or options. My thought is that knowing Henry Ford would not waste anything, they might have had some rock moss left over and used it on what ever came down the line.

[30 Tudor and Coupe]

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I purchased my '30 coupe from my Great Uncle in 1957. It was maroon then and all the interior painted areas are maroon. Maroon was not officially offered on the '30 coupes but it sure was maroon. When it was restored in 2000, I painted it an "Official Color" but now wish I would have done it back to maroon. If your car always was "Rock Moss", it is your car and your memories, paint it "Rock Moss"

[700rpm]

Jeff, please don't take this the wrong way, but I have to say you obviously have your mind made up, so why are you asking us for advice? Brent Terry is one of the most knowledgeable people in the country on the authentic and correct restoration of the Model A. Jim Cannon is on the national Board of MAFCA as the technical director and is also very knowledgeable. If you can't accept their opinions, no one else here can help you on this matter. I'm sure the car will look fine painted RMG, but it won't be a correct color for a 1928 Tudor.

Good luck with your project. You have a very special car. Have fun with it, and feel free to ask questions along the way, but also be prepared to hear the truth.

As an aside, I have a 29 Tudor, which was originally Andalusite Blue. I refurbished it in 1980, but I don't like the bright blue of the original reveals, so they are also Andalusite Blue. It isn't correct, but I don't care. It's my car and it's the color I like. But I never say it's restored. It is refurbished.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by jeffo

My dad told me that when his grandfather ordered the car that he told the dealer he didn't care what color it was, he just wanted the first one that came in. I know that you could not special order colors or options. My thought is that knowing Henry Ford would not waste anything, they might have had some rock moss left over and used it on what ever came down the line.

yea i wouldnt doubt it. same issues today - we have some parts being painted colors thier not supposed to be... like military parts painted bright gloss yellow when thier supposed to be flat desert tan...

Rock Moss green was a very popular if not the most prominent color for AA trucks. Only difference is the AA trucks paint didnt get buffed to a shine when they were done.

I am with you on wanting to keep it how your grandfather received it.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by 30 Tudor and Coupe

I purchased my '30 coupe from my Great Uncle in 1957. It was maroon then and all the interior painted areas are maroon. Maroon was not officially offered on the '30 coupes but it sure was maroon. When it was restored in 2000, I painted it an "Official Color" but now wish I would have done it back to maroon. If your car always was "Rock Moss", it is your car and your memories, paint it "Rock Moss"

Maroon was the garnish molding and upper dash color for many of the standard 1930 model A's.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by jeffo

My dad told me that when his grandfather ordered the car that he told the dealer he didn't care what color it was, he just wanted the first one that came in. I know that you could not special order colors or options. My thought is that knowing Henry Ford would not waste anything, they might have had some rock moss left over and used it on what ever came down the line.

The mixing colors now available Don't exactly match the original color formulas . When I painted my april 1930 AA , I wanted to paint it rock moss green because that was the standard color for model A trucks of that year. I was using Sherwin Williams paints in my shop at that time. The Paint rep told me that the best that they could do with any of the old colors was find a color that most closely matched the original color that they could come up with a formula for. The color ended up being an international truck color that was close but actually looked better. This is really the case with any of the model A colors, truth be known. After over eighty years any original colors found on a model A will have had to have changed to some degree in that length of time. People have all kinds of ideas about correct model A colors . Anybody that was living when the model A's were new wouldn't be able to remember what was exactly correct color , even if they said that they could. The different paint companies will come up with a color that is as close as they can but it will not likely be an exact match of the original color.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by jeffo

My dad told me that when his grandfather ordered the car that he told the dealer he didn't care what color it was, he just wanted the first one that came in. I know that you could not special order colors or options. My thought is that knowing Henry Ford would not waste anything, they might have had some rock moss left over and used it on what ever came down the line.

I concur with others that you should paint the vehicle in a color to suit yourself and your family.

With regard to your comment above in bold, please allow me to share this with you. Like yourself, I grew up hearing those same set of stories about how ol 'Hank' never wasted anything. To a certain extent, there was some truth in that Ford Mtr. Co. was likely one of the first "recyclers" however it was a Model-A researcher/historian named Marco Tahtaras that made a statement once that countered my thoughts on this. As I started to research this on my own, I realized his statement was indeed accurate. Ford was VERY methodical in the way they ran their manufacturing process. In other words, there was no such thing as "left over" Rock Moss paint. At that time, their paints were manufactured in-house and when a batch of paint was ordered, they already knew for what, -and how many vehicles it was to be used on. Everything had to be approved by Ford or his management team. If a painter or foreman took it upon himself to paint a vehicle an undesignated color, they would have been relieved of their duties immediately. Also, departments on down the line (Glaziers, Trim, etc.) would have recognized this error and upper-management would not allowed it to be completed.

This same procedure was followed thru with every aspect of the manufacturing process. The Foundry Foremen did not just come in on any given day and decide on his own that he was going to make some random part ...nor did he say I will just see how many of those I can get made today. The daily Foreman's logs reveal how management above gave them specific Work Orders on what item to produce and the exact count to make. They even gave a specific time allotment that had to be adhered to. Ford was very strict about this. Also, people often make claims about how the workers just used up parts on the line until a revision was made. Yes, this is true however folks also need to understand this was by design. Generally speaking, parts revisions were done to aid in efficiency of in-house manufacturing or assembly. These revisions had to be approved by management ...and this is the same management that knew what current inventory levels were. Often time, the revised part's production was delayed until existing inventory levels were nearly depleted and the new item would be manufactured and transported to the Branches.

Since you are in Indiana and fairly close in distance to Dearborn, MI, you may find it interesting to visit the Bensen Ford Research Ctr. just inside Greenfield Village. There you will find many documents that reveal just how the Model-A, and the manufacturing process really was. As a matter of fact, I am leaving today, traveling there to spend tomorrow & Friday researching original blueprints, foreman's logs, factory photos, etc. on items I have questions about. It is truly an interesting place! Hope to see you there sometime!

[eagle]

All of the debate is null and void if, truly, the car was originally painted RMG. It IS possible to find that out by careful inspection of the car. It isn't plausible that every single painted surface was stripped to bare metal at such an early date. Have a professional investigation done and document it, whatever the results of it are.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Clem Clement

Save some places to show the original color.

I agree, IF the car is ever shown fine point a waiver can applied for.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by eagle

All of the debate is null and void if, truly, the car was originally painted RMG. It IS possible to find that out by careful inspection of the car. It isn't plausible that every single painted surface was stripped to bare metal at such an early date. Have a professional investigation done and document it, whatever the results of it are.

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I agree, IF the car is ever shown fine point a waiver can applied for.

Unfortunately, I am not sure that would truly be enough documentation to receive a Variance for either club's Judging Stds. Cmmittee. Somehow, ...someway there needs to be documentation this vehicle truly did come from Ford with RMG. While Commercial vehicles were allowed some latitude for requesting other color combinations, nothing I am aware of allowed this privilege to passenger vehicles during this timeframe.

Fortunately for us (-likely unfortunate for Jeff) the Ford Model-A during this period is one of the most documented vehicles ever manufactured. The knowledge of these early Model-As and their running changes is very well known. In this instance, someone taking a picture of what is believed to be original paint really does not constitute documentation. On the flip side, having the original Sales Invoice that documented the vehicle was painted this color, or having some other type of official paperwork is about what it is going to take. Adding to this, the engine/frame number along with assembly Branch would likely be needed where the JSC could do some investigation to corroborate.

In Jeff's other post, he mentioned the belt on this vehicle was painted Black. Again, this goes against any type of documentation that Ford has. Below is two side-by-side "modern renditions" of RMG (on left) and the Dawn Gray Dk. that I had on-hand. Once those were sprayed over a red base, the original color would likely have been even a little darker and 'muddier'. Like Jeff says, the two colors are not really close enough to be easily confused.

[dean from bozeman]

If a painter or foreman took it upon himself to paint a vehicle an undesignated color, they would have been relieved of their duties immediately. Also, departments on down the line (Glaziers, Trim, etc.) would have recognized this error and upper-management would not allowed it to be completed.- Brent

Brent, I believe that you are speculating what might have been done. There are ample examples of original cars that are not painted like the JS says or Ford said. I would imagine that the painters would have been given some leeway in this, particularly if they had "extra" paint at the end of a job/shift. There was such a hunger for Model A's in 1928 that I doubt upper management would not let a car be completed.

The reason I created my avatar is a tongue in cheek way to say that obviously Ford didn't use our Judging Standards. Many, many hours of research have gone into building the JS but not all Model A's were built the exactly the same and thus will not fit the club standards. Variances existed: variances in parts, variances in the way they were painted. These variances can be seen in many low mileage, original cars.

Jeffo, another thing to consider is that paint oxidizes and changes colors during that process. However, if the car was in your family since it came out of the factory and only its exterior had been painted and you found Rock Moss Green under the upholstery that has never been taken off, I'd say that you have an excellent case that indeed it was painted Rock Moss Green from the factory.

Jeffo, paint the car the color you would like. I agree with Mike V. that a waiver from the JS Committee could be applied for and, I believe, that it would most likely be granted.

Congratulations to you and your family for keeping this Model A "from birth" in your family. That is really cool.

[C26Pinelake]

Truly amazing how much knowledge is available to us common folk and the nice thing is that it is free ! In this case Jeff is the recipient and on any given day I also benefit.
Thanks folks, Wayne

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Hi Dean, respectfully I believe you are confusing two different things in my view.

First, the JS book openly admits its' content is NOT how every Model-A was manufactured nor is it the definitive word on how all of them were manufactured. I believe most folks already realize this and in earlier posts we have suggested to Jeff that he paint their vehicle in whatever combination that suits them. I believe you & I totally agree with that.

Since this was brought up by folks other than Jeff, lets see if we are in agreement with the following. The Model A Restorations & Judging Standards is a guideline by which a Restorer is to assemble his vehicle if he plans to have the vehicle evaluated and scored. I guess we could call it the Rulebook by which a game is played on that particular day. So, looking at it from Jeff's car, if a car owner can provide documentation to support the variance, then it will likely be granted however it has been explained to me numerous times that while it is not required, the JSC is looking for evidence supported by information obtained from Ford literature, bulletins, service letters, blueprints, engineering information and appropriate photographs to be able to validate my request. I believe it was suggested that pictures of the existing paint be submitted to the JSC to receive a variance. I contend it would take more than some pictures taken by a car owner to receive a variance of this level however I could very well be wrong in this.

As for what the JSC would say, I will be attending the MARC Judging Stds. Committee meeting this Friday nite and Saturday, and I will pose this exact question to them as to what it would take in the form of documentation for this gentleman to receive a variance for this color combination or use of color. FWIW, I am going to be posing another paint color question to the JSC for their opinion based on what appears to be differing text within the JS book.

Also Dean, would you be willing to provide documentation (name of owner, etc.) of an original 1928 Model-A existing today that came from the factory with a paint color scheme that is varied from Ford specification such as Jeff's? If so, I can mention this vehicle in that conversation with the JSC.

Thanks!!

[dean from bozeman]

Also Dean, would you be willing to provide documentation (name of owner, etc.) of an original 1928 Model-A existing today that came from the factory with a paint color scheme that is varied from Ford specification such as Jeff's? If so, I can mention this vehicle in that conversation with the JSC.
- Brent

I would agree that the Judging Standards is a rulebook for the game we play at fine point judging. Is it accurate? Is it too accurate? Are there variances? What percentage of vehicles driven out of the factory would do well in fine point? Ya da, ya da, ya da. There are many questions that come to mind when thinking about the JS. One thing that cannot be questioned is the time and work that folks, like you Brent, have put into it.

My point being, though we agree to use the JS for fine point and other levels of restoration, there are many examples of parts, paint, etc. that do not fit within its guidelines. We should try to maintain an open mind. In the avatar, Henry seems to be clutching the JS and looking at Edsel with a "it better be in the Judging Standards" look.

Brent, a friend (not talking about Gary Karr) in the San Diego area has a '28 Tudor that has been in his family since new. It has a color use/combination that is not recognized by the JS. I'll ask him to contact you and relay the information about his Tudor.

Another friend just e-mailed me about different paint colors (Stone Gray & Stone Brown) on a Cabriolet that are different than what is stated/accepted in the Judging Standards. This information was shared with Marco and Doug Clayton. According to this man they agreed that it did look like original paint. Of course, this is all hearsay at this point but is worth looking into. I will ask this man to contact you.

I enjoy the fact that the JS is an ever evolving manuscript. We are continually finding variances on a theme, that show the JS is a guideline, an ever changing guideline.

[bikejunk]

Hey jeffo could we see some pictures of the inside of the car so we could see the original over spray , and was it a truly original interior that was inside?

[rusty12]

I am wondering if the original color was some other green or greenish blue color than Rock Moss Green. As we all know, painted surfaces tend to darken over the years so I wonder if what appears to be Rock Moss Green is one of the other Ford passenger colors that has darkened over the years and now looks like Rock Moss Green. Even areas that have not been exposed can darken and can still be darker than the original color once they have been polished and/or color sanded. A friend has a very original 1929 pickup and even the unexposed areas of original Rock Moss green have basically turned to almost black. One of my non-Fords was originally a dark bluish green and now the original paint is more of a greenish-black. Just my 1 cent worth!