An argument FOR thermostats. ..

[Bluebell]

A wax stat usually fails when open. A bellows (alcohol)type is usually shut after it fails. The use of modern(70s, 80s, 90s.) wax type thermostats (as far as I know) was a fairly common practice. The problem was the flange (o.d.) is too big, and they have to be ground / cut down to fit in the top hose. This is a bit of a challenge to do and my understanding is that many of the stats in modern Japanese built cars are physically the same stats with a smaller o.d.
Someone previously in this thread mentioned an 84 Nissan 300zx stat. Since then more Japanese cars use these smaller stats. I would suggest searching for one of these in the right heat range and using that. I hope that helps.

[Cecil/WV]

Amen, GM

[Bluebell]

G.M. you are obviously a very knowledgeable and experienced guy, and you have strong views about the need for high flow stats in flathead v8s.
It seems to me that nearly every other engine out there runs ONE thermostat, Not TWO high flow ones.
It doesn't seem to matter if its a 429 cu. in. or a small truck pulling 6 ton. they manage on ONE standard flow thermostat. There are millions of them around the world including quite a few in hot parts of the planet.
Maybe it's more than just high flow thermostats that is the flaw in Henry's design?

[oldford2]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Very strange post, I didn't see Skips name mentioned. If you are tired of my posts just pass over them. There are new people on here all the time that have the same heating and fuel problems that has existed for years. I don't like retyping the same thing over
but if it helps just one person that's what this site is all about. G.M.

Excellent response George. There a few on the Barn that consider themselves experts. Most posts are critical, negative and offer no advice to the poster. This guy is at the top of the list. Look back at all the posts on this thread and see if he ever offered help.
John

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Moore

Yes, I have the opposite problem of most flathead owners, how to make it run hotter.
In running the early heads, do I have to have the type that slips down into the head?
Weren't the original ones made like a tube, instead of the more modern flat style?

I have the the same problem, I put cardboard in front of the radiator in the winter or when it is cold hear, I cover 2/3 of it that way it will warm up to 180. with out it the motor will only heat up to about 110

[tubman]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by oldford2

Excellent response George. There a few on the Barn that consider themselves experts. Most posts are critical, negative and offer no advice to the poster. This guy is at the top of the list. Look back at all the posts on this thread and see if he ever offered help.
John

I agree fully.

[WestCoast]

I don't always agree with GM, but he is a very smart guy, and the ford flat head has to have two thermostats because it has two water return hoses to the radiator, so why don't you figure out a way to use only one thermostat?, it does no good to control the water going back to the radiator on half the engine. modern cars use one thermostat because they only have one radiator hose to return the water to the radiator, fords flat head had heating problem because the hot exhaust gases were exited thru the block instead of the head like modern cars

[Old Henry]

For anyone interested, here are two controlled tests I performed regarding thermostats:

This one compares the NAPA thermostat referred to with no thermostats: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113979

This one compares what I think is the highest flow thermostat for the 59A engine (the same NAPA stat referred to) with another thermostat that claims to be high flow and has been heavily promoted as such: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143576

One more thing for Ralph Moore or anyone else trying thermostats in their 59A for the first time, the current replacement thermostats tend to get pushed up into the hose by the water pressure below, turn sideways, and quit working. One way to secure them is with a short piece of a single strand of a stranded wire thus:

[Old Henry]

Just in case anyone wants to get the Stant stat for their engine here is some information about that. It is a Stant 14157 available on line many places including Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000C822YC or at NAPA part number THM 111, or at O'Reilly that sells the same stat as a Murray 4157, O'Reilly part number 2962.

[Ralph Moore]

Henry, that's what I needed. looks like a way to make a modern T stat work. I was concerned about the things turning in the hoses and being useless.

[Bluebell]

West coast, You have missed my point. The point was that each thermostat is only dealing with 120 Cu.in. 4 cylinder!
Why do they need a "high flow" thermostat in each side, when so many bigger capacity, higher horsepower output engines only need one std flow stat in total?
Maybe it comes back to clean radiators, clean engine water jackets, with the core sand removed from them. Basically if an engine is taken back to its full specifications, I don't believe it needs "high flow" thermostats.
Here is a quote from an Impco service bulletin:
"The build up of rust scale or alkali deposits in the water jacket can severely affect the dissipation of heat. For example, the heat transferability of a 1" piece of cast iron with a 1/16" layer of mineral deposit, is equal to the heat transferability of a 4 1/4" piece of clean cast iron. Consequently even slight contamination can inhibit or prevent the transfer of heat from the combustion chamber to the coolant"
Have a look at Old Henry's photo and you can see the example. Ask your self, "was the introduction of "high flow" thermostats the answer here?

I DO agree that if short cuts are the option of choice and "good practice" is not fully dealt with, then, high flow water pumps and high flow thermostats may help.
All just my opinion. Cheers.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Bluebell

G.M. you are obviously a very knowledgeable and experienced guy, and you have strong views about the need for high flow stats in flathead v8s.
It seems to me that nearly every other engine out there runs ONE thermostat, Not TWO high flow ones.
It doesn't seem to matter if its a 429 cu. in. or a small truck pulling 6 ton. they manage on ONE standard flow thermostat. There are millions of them around the world including quite a few in hot parts of the planet.
Maybe it's more than just high flow thermostats that is the flaw in Henry's design?

The problem with the old Fords is the radiator. The amount of tubes, the length of the tubes and some surface dirt in the tubes makes a big restriction of the flow. With a pressure cap MORE coolant is FORCED thought the tubes, without a pressure cap coolant backs up in the top tank and out the over flow tube resulting in low coolant in the system.
More coolant in the system, more coolant flowing through it and more air moving through the radiator fins equal optimum cooling. Any improvement in anyone of these helps. G.M.

[WestCoast]

Bluebell, I guess I did miss your point, but this is a v/8 forum and he was discussing his v/8 motor, thus my remark about two thermostats

[donald1950]

preferably, he should have said "G. M.s way is the only way".....

[Dave D]

With a pressure cap MORE coolant is FORCED thought the tubes, without a pressure cap coolant backs up in the top tank and out the over flow tube resulting in low coolant in the system.

Ahh...no, with a pressure cap the temperature can go higher before it reaches it's boiling point, once water reaches it's boiling point the STEAM pressure overrides the cap.... or the radiator fails.

You have to ask yourself why does EVERY internal combustion engine manufacturer in the world put a thermostat in? Anyone who thinks an engine runs better without one is kidding themselves.

[Bluebell]

Hi Dave, I totally agree with your last point, however I'd like to point out the subtle but important point that it is not steam pressure, but expanded water that forces the pressure cap to lift.
The whole point of the pressure cap is to raise the boiling point of the water, to allow the engine to operate at a higher temperature.
A 1 pound increase in pressure raises the boiling point of the water in the system by 4 degrees F. (at sea level)
So for example; at sea level pure water boils at 212 degrees F.
Add a 4 lb cap and the boiling point goes up to 226 degrees F.
A 12 lb cap raises the B.P. to 260 degrees F.
An internal combustion engine is more efficient at higher temp, but the last thing you want is to have it boil. That's when the damage is done.

(Not sure that any flathead Fords ran anything higher than a 4 pound system)

[G.M.]

As the water gets hot it increases the pressure in the system. We are not interested in increasing the boiling point, it has nothing to do with these engines. They should NEVER run over 210 so increasing the boiling point has no purpose. Again at 210 there is less than 3 lb pressure in an old Ford with a pressure cap or 3 lb valve. The pressure cap or valve has 2 functions, keep the water from backing up in the top tank which forces the water through the radiator tubes and as a SAFETY VALVE to release the pressure if it gets above 3 or 4 lbs from temperatures above 210 or from a compression leak. It's very simple don't try to make it complicated. G.M.

[MGG]

Originally Posted by Dave D

Ahh...no, with a pressure cap the temperature can go higher before it reaches it's boiling point, once water reaches it's boiling point the STEAM pressure overrides the cap.... or the radiator fails.

You have to ask yourself why does EVERY internal combustion engine manufacturer in the world put a thermostat in? Anyone who thinks an engine runs better without one is kidding themselves.

I agree completely. From what I know about Henry Ford, he was not about to add to the cost of his vehicles by installing useless or unnecessary items.

[ct1932ford]

Always use them!

[4tcoupe]

Just curious, I do not currently have a running v-8 flathead , but has anyone ever tried a comparison test with two different style thermostats, one in each head, take temp. readings with infa red heat gun, before and after thermostats, out of radiator, various points on heads? Swap sides with thermostats and compare. Swapping sides would cancel other variables, internal heat transfer, water pump differences, ambient temps, air flow, etc. Might give interesting results.