The Ford Barn

TomballMottershaw · 04-19-2018, 01:09 PM

so how does one best find the Neutral gear ?
mine was there earlier in the day... it's gone now.
where did my Neutral gear go ?

I can shift into the other gears... just not Neutral.

any suggestions before I pull off the shift tower ?

the clutch works fine.

Will N · 04-19-2018, 02:10 PM

Bent or broke shift forks maybe? I thing the tower has to come off.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 04-19-2018, 05:12 PM

Neutral is NOT a GEAR, so there's NOTHING to go ANYWHERE or to get LOST???
I think we need a better explanation of what happened?????
Bill Waitingwithbaitedbreath

WHN · 04-19-2018, 05:34 PM

Never heard of this one. Agree with Bill.

Keith True · 04-19-2018, 06:05 PM

Yep,more info needed.Does it go into all the gears,and out again,with a positive click with every move of the lever?When you start the car,does it try to drive off no matter where the lever is?Start with those things,then we can ask you some more questions.

GRutter · 04-19-2018, 09:26 PM

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If you don't have neutral, I would not start the car or attempt to drive it without pulling the transmission tower and fixing the problem. If it is a shift fork issue, you could lock up the transmission or break the gear case and or gears.

KenCoupe · 04-19-2018, 11:28 PM

If you take off the shift tower, also check that the ball at the end of the shift lever is round and is not squared off. However, if you are shifting into all the gears, it is probably not that but is worth checking if the tower is off. Also, when you can't find neutral does it stay in gear? If so, is it always the same gear or different gears depending on where it was before you tried to shift to neutral?

CarlLaFong · 04-19-2018, 11:37 PM

How can you shift from one gear to another without having neutral in between???

TomballMottershaw · 04-20-2018, 07:39 AM

Additional info:

So I drove the the 30 Truck, and ran and was shifting fine.
I went up the street, stopped and turned around shut it off to check it out as I had just re-built the entire brake system.

I hopped back in the truck, the wiggle the gear shift thought I was in Netrual, and tried to turn over the engine to restart the truck, the truck moved,
I put the clutch in and the engine started, so I took off down the road back home ( 1000 feet ) I went to turn into the driveway ... put it what I thought was neutral.... and the truck moved... as I let the clutch out.
I wiggled the gear shift to find Neutral.. no Neutral there.

I Just thought some had had this happen and would have some easy fix.

like when the starter bendix gets stuck and the engine won't turn over.

Seems that if I shifted the lever into this problem... I could shift out of it.

Brentwood Bob · 04-20-2018, 08:54 AM

Pull the shift tower to inspect. Do not start or run the engine with the tower off. Oil will go everywhere.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 04-20-2018, 09:26 AM

The answer will be in there. Remember, when diagnosing it, stuff inside moves the OPPOSITE of the way the shifter moves.
Bill W.

jm29henry · 04-20-2018, 09:34 AM

I think the shift forks are not matting right

Benson · 04-20-2018, 09:37 AM

A few years ago there were some REPRO shift levers that were made in two pieces and screwed and threaded together.

Some of them came apart into two halves or loosened up so lever "flopped around" and lower 1/2 of lever did not move forks very far.

I do not remember whether they came unscrewed or if female end split and it came apart.

CarlLaFong · 04-20-2018, 11:08 AM

I must be missing something here. If you know how a transmission works, as it goes from one gear to the next, not having neutral, between the gears, is impossible. When going, let's say, from first to second, as first gear disengages, the trans is in neutral before second engages. Same with second to high or reverse to first. As stated, neutral isn't a gear, it is lack of gear engagement

TomballMottershaw · 04-20-2018, 11:55 AM

Hi CarlLaFong,
So yes, you can have a transmission that does not have a neutral with the gear shift lever.
and it's not impossible, maybe just impossible to drive and shift.
...many planetary based transmissions don't have a neutral.

I have rebuilt several Model A transmissions, I know their setup well.
You can slip it into 2 gear ranges at the same time and lock it too .... not fun.

I would guess that the shift fork is bent or such, I'll post some pictures when I Pull of the tower.

Y-Blockhead · 04-20-2018, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomballMottershaw

Hi CarlLaFong,
So yes, you can have a transmission that does not have a neutral with the gear shift lever.
and it's not impossible, maybe just impossible to drive and shift.
...many planetary based transmissions don't have a neutral.

I think Carl was referring to the Model A trans NOT " ...many planetary based transmissions".

And I agree with him. If it is NOT in gear it is in neutral. If you shift out of 1st, but have not engaged 2nd, where are you?

BILL WILLIAMSON · 04-20-2018, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

I think Carl was referring to the Model A trans NOT " ...many planetary based transmissions".

And I agree with him. If it is NOT in gear it is in neutral. If you shift out of 1st, but have not engaged 2nd, where are you?

He's out in the Garage, "PONDERING"!!
SA Bill W.

Tacoma Bob · 04-20-2018, 04:20 PM

MMM don't know if this applies but many years ago I had built a 30 ccpu with a chevy v-8 and a flat head rear end converted to open drive shaft. On the freeway it kick out of high gear ( third). I put it back in third and it popped back to neutral. I looked in the side view mirror and to my horror the cheater slick was coming off. I was lucky to gently get to the shoulder. I jacked up the car and the wheel feel off in my hands. In my case I had sheared the outboard end of the axle.

frank55a · 04-20-2018, 05:08 PM

Perhaps 20-25 years ago I had something similar happen. The repo Model A clutches made may be 35+ years ago had some springs spaced around the center. When they were made there were tabs that were suppose to hold the springs in place, however the tabs were not quite big enough and a spring could pop out under certain circumstances and wedge between the clutch and pressure plate there by not allowing the clutch to disengage and basically keeping the transmission in gear at all times. As I recall when I replaced that clutch, the new clutch had tabs that covered more of the spring to hold it in place. Back then we did not have the internet to share our problems but as I recall I had heard of others that had the same problem.

Synchro909 · 04-20-2018, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank55a

Perhaps 20-25 years ago I had something similar happen. The repo Model A clutches made may be 35+ years ago had some springs spaced around the center. When they were made there were tabs that were suppose to hold the springs in place, however the tabs were not quite big enough and a spring could pop out under certain circumstances and wedge between the clutch and pressure plate there by not allowing the clutch to disengage and basically keeping the transmission in gear at all times. As I recall when I replaced that clutch, the new clutch had tabs that covered more of the spring to hold it in place. Back then we did not have the internet to share our problems but as I recall I had heard of others that had the same problem.

I had been wondering about this possibility too but when the OP said that he can start the engine when the clutch is pressed and the car doesn't move like it did when the clutch was out, I dismissed it. I saw a guy a few years ago lose his clutch when a piece of the lining broke away from the plate and wedged between the clutch plate and the flywheel. The result would have been very similar to having one of those springs come out of place.
I find it difficult to imagine how neutral could disappear but I wonder how much experience Mr Tomball has with these gearboxes. Maybe he has reverse, just can't find it?!?!?!
I'm looking forward to learning what is going on here.

Simonpie · 04-20-2018, 07:33 PM

I know some here have had a bent shift fork that allowed the trans to be in 2 gears at once, thus locking solid. If the fork was just a bit bent, it could "close the gap" between 2 gears, leaving so little room that neutral would be difficult or impossible to find, but still not lock up. You'd have to be pretty lucky to get just that much bend on it.
Regardless, I think the answer is in the tower somewhere, which is lucky.

heneste · 04-20-2018, 09:30 PM

I've seen transmission towers put back on without the proper positioning of the shift forks so it more or less locked the transmission in a gear. Maybe one of the forks broke and it's staying in one gear? It will be interesting to see what the culprit is.....

CarlLaFong · 04-20-2018, 10:32 PM

Planetary transmissions do, indeed, have a neutral. Half pedal or half brake lever is neutral on a Model "T". Since neutral is not a gear but the lack of one, when neither the low gear band or the high gear clutches are engaged, you're in neutral, iffy as it can be. I have to repeat a previously asked question. When you shift out of first but have not yet engaged second, where are you???

Chuck Sea/Tac · 04-20-2018, 10:54 PM

Just last year a friend of mine had the tranny stick in 3rd gear. He drove 40 miles home some thru stop and go traffic on 405 in Bellevue Wash. I believe he told me he found nothing wrong with the top off, and when he put it back together it was fine. Scary

KenCoupe · 04-20-2018, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

Just last year a friend of mine had the tranny stick in 3rd gear. He drove 40 miles home some thru stop and go traffic on 405 in Bellevue Wash. I believe he told me he found nothing wrong with the top off, and when he put it back together it was fine. Scary

I had a similar situation a few years ago. Our club was on the way to the Peterson Museum for a tour of the vault. About a mile from the Museum on Wilshire Blvd (Los Angeles), I couldn't shift out of 2nd gear. I was able to drive to the Peterson in 2nd only and tour the vault. After the tour I had it towed home. I took of the shift tower and found nothing wrong - fairly new shift lever with the ball still nicely round, shift forks were fine, etc. I put it back together and have had no problems since (knock on wood

).

katy · 04-21-2018, 08:13 AM

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Quote:

so how does one best find the Neutral gear ?
mine was there earlier in the day... it's gone now.
where did my Neutral gear go ?

Perhaps the clutch release shaft arm has cracked and the clutch isn't releasing.
Bratton's part # 11270

hook00pad · 04-21-2018, 10:14 AM

I had a problem with my NAA Ford tractor, years ago, which would become stuck in one gear. I don't remember which gear. But the only way to get it to shift was to remove the top cover and shifter (which is similar to Model A) and use a pry bar to move the gears themselves to neutral. The shifter had become worn which allowed it to slip out of the gear slot without moving the gear. A new shifter fixed the problem.

A Hook

CarlLaFong · 04-21-2018, 11:06 AM

As is typical with any board, there is a lack of reading comprehension going on along with a tendency to grab the ball and run in any direction. In the original post, he said that he has all the gears, yet there is no neutral. It is not stuck in two gears or any of the other, supposed, problems described. My contention is, you cannot have 4 functioning gears and not have a neutral. It is impossible

Chuck Sea/Tac · 04-21-2018, 04:42 PM

So Tomball: are you saying you can actually move the car in all three gears like normal,each gear being progressive, but there is no place where you can let the clutch out without the car moving in a direction? Or does it stall the engine?

Synchro909 · 04-21-2018, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katy

Perhaps the clutch release shaft arm has cracked and the clutch isn't releasing.
Bratton's part # 11270

Katy, The op's post at #9 rules that out. He said that with the clutch pressed, he could start the engine but if he let it out, the car moved. Clearly the clutch is working.

katy · 04-22-2018, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Katy, The op's post at #9 rules that out. He said that with the clutch pressed, he could start the engine but if he let it out, the car moved. Clearly the clutch is working.

I guess I missed that part.

Simonpie · 04-22-2018, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlLaFong

As is typical with any board, there is a lack of reading comprehension going on along with a tendency to grab the ball and run in any direction. In the original post, he said that he has all the gears, yet there is no neutral. It is not stuck in two gears or any of the other, supposed, problems described. My contention is, you cannot have 4 functioning gears and not have a neutral. It is impossible

I'd just like to clarify that my post, #21, isn't really a comprehension problem, even though I mention being in 2 gears at once.
The idea is that the normal tranny is in a gear, then moves to a spot where no gears engage, then moves further to a spot where the next gear engages.
If a slightly bent fork closes up the width of the "no gear engaged" zone, then neutral will be hard (or impossible) to find.

100IH · 04-22-2018, 10:14 AM

One possibility, the caged needle bearing between the input shaft and the output shaft. The bearings are notoriously bad as we all know. If one comes apart in that tight space, it locks the two shafts together having the effect of being in 3rd gear. It might be that when in first, second or reverse, the lower gear ratio over powers the jammed up mess in between the 2 shafts and just makes pretty silver flakes. Drain out some oil and check.

04-19-2018, 01:09 PM	#1
TomballMottershaw Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Tomball Texas Posts: 74	Lost Neutral so how does one best find the Neutral gear ? mine was there earlier in the day... it's gone now. where did my Neutral gear go ? I can shift into the other gears... just not Neutral. any suggestions before I pull off the shift tower ? the clutch works fine.

04-19-2018, 05:12 PM	#3
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Lost Neutral Neutral is NOT a GEAR, so there's NOTHING to go ANYWHERE or to get LOST??? I think we need a better explanation of what happened????? Bill Waitingwithbaitedbreath __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

04-19-2018, 05:34 PM	#4
WHN Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Connecticut Shoreline Posts: 1,821	Re: Lost Neutral Never heard of this one. Agree with Bill.

04-19-2018, 06:05 PM	#5
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 2,986	Re: Lost Neutral Yep,more info needed.Does it go into all the gears,and out again,with a positive click with every move of the lever?When you start the car,does it try to drive off no matter where the lever is?Start with those things,then we can ask you some more questions.

04-19-2018, 09:26 PM	#6
GRutter Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Mint Hill, North Carolina Posts: 386	Re: Lost Neutral Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If you don't have neutral, I would not start the car or attempt to drive it without pulling the transmission tower and fixing the problem. If it is a shift fork issue, you could lock up the transmission or break the gear case and or gears.

04-19-2018, 02:10 PM	#2
Will N Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,101	Re: Lost Neutral Bent or broke shift forks maybe? I thing the tower has to come off.

04-19-2018, 11:28 PM	#7
KenCoupe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 239	Re: Lost Neutral If you take off the shift tower, also check that the ball at the end of the shift lever is round and is not squared off. However, if you are shifting into all the gears, it is probably not that but is worth checking if the tower is off. Also, when you can't find neutral does it stay in gear? If so, is it always the same gear or different gears depending on where it was before you tried to shift to neutral?

04-19-2018, 11:37 PM	#8
CarlLaFong Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Sunny SoCal and Valley Mills, TX Posts: 63	Re: Lost Neutral How can you shift from one gear to another without having neutral in between???

04-20-2018, 07:39 AM	#9
TomballMottershaw Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Tomball Texas Posts: 74	Re: Lost Neutral Additional info: So I drove the the 30 Truck, and ran and was shifting fine. I went up the street, stopped and turned around shut it off to check it out as I had just re-built the entire brake system. I hopped back in the truck, the wiggle the gear shift thought I was in Netrual, and tried to turn over the engine to restart the truck, the truck moved, I put the clutch in and the engine started, so I took off down the road back home ( 1000 feet ) I went to turn into the driveway ... put it what I thought was neutral.... and the truck moved... as I let the clutch out. I wiggled the gear shift to find Neutral.. no Neutral there. I Just thought some had had this happen and would have some easy fix. like when the starter bendix gets stuck and the engine won't turn over. Seems that if I shifted the lever into this problem... I could shift out of it.

04-20-2018, 08:54 AM	#10
Brentwood Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: brentwood, ca Posts: 4,235	Re: Lost Neutral Pull the shift tower to inspect. Do not start or run the engine with the tower off. Oil will go everywhere.

04-20-2018, 09:26 AM	#11
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Lost Neutral The answer will be in there. Remember, when diagnosing it, stuff inside moves the OPPOSITE of the way the shifter moves. Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

04-20-2018, 09:34 AM	#12
jm29henry Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: michigan Posts: 1,126	Re: Lost Neutral I think the shift forks are not matting right

04-20-2018, 09:37 AM	#13
Benson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,594	Re: Lost Neutral A few years ago there were some REPRO shift levers that were made in two pieces and screwed and threaded together. Some of them came apart into two halves or loosened up so lever "flopped around" and lower 1/2 of lever did not move forks very far. I do not remember whether they came unscrewed or if female end split and it came apart. Last edited by Benson; 04-20-2018 at 01:34 PM.

04-20-2018, 11:08 AM	#14
CarlLaFong Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Sunny SoCal and Valley Mills, TX Posts: 63	Re: Lost Neutral I must be missing something here. If you know how a transmission works, as it goes from one gear to the next, not having neutral, between the gears, is impossible. When going, let's say, from first to second, as first gear disengages, the trans is in neutral before second engages. Same with second to high or reverse to first. As stated, neutral isn't a gear, it is lack of gear engagement

04-20-2018, 11:55 AM	#15
TomballMottershaw Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Tomball Texas Posts: 74	Re: Lost Neutral Hi CarlLaFong, So yes, you can have a transmission that does not have a neutral with the gear shift lever. and it's not impossible, maybe just impossible to drive and shift. ...many planetary based transmissions don't have a neutral. I have rebuilt several Model A transmissions, I know their setup well. You can slip it into 2 gear ranges at the same time and lock it too .... not fun. I would guess that the shift fork is bent or such, I'll post some pictures when I Pull of the tower.

04-20-2018, 04:20 PM	#18
Tacoma Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 1,025	Re: Lost Neutral MMM don't know if this applies but many years ago I had built a 30 ccpu with a chevy v-8 and a flat head rear end converted to open drive shaft. On the freeway it kick out of high gear ( third). I put it back in third and it popped back to neutral. I looked in the side view mirror and to my horror the cheater slick was coming off. I was lucky to gently get to the shoulder. I jacked up the car and the wheel feel off in my hands. In my case I had sheared the outboard end of the axle.

04-20-2018, 05:08 PM	#19
frank55a Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 934	Re: Lost Neutral Perhaps 20-25 years ago I had something similar happen. The repo Model A clutches made may be 35+ years ago had some springs spaced around the center. When they were made there were tabs that were suppose to hold the springs in place, however the tabs were not quite big enough and a spring could pop out under certain circumstances and wedge between the clutch and pressure plate there by not allowing the clutch to disengage and basically keeping the transmission in gear at all times. As I recall when I replaced that clutch, the new clutch had tabs that covered more of the spring to hold it in place. Back then we did not have the internet to share our problems but as I recall I had heard of others that had the same problem.

04-20-2018, 07:33 PM	#21
Simonpie Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Portland Or Posts: 137	Re: Lost Neutral I know some here have had a bent shift fork that allowed the trans to be in 2 gears at once, thus locking solid. If the fork was just a bit bent, it could "close the gap" between 2 gears, leaving so little room that neutral would be difficult or impossible to find, but still not lock up. You'd have to be pretty lucky to get just that much bend on it. Regardless, I think the answer is in the tower somewhere, which is lucky.

04-20-2018, 09:30 PM	#22
heneste Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Ottawa,Ontario, Canada Posts: 271	Re: Lost Neutral I've seen transmission towers put back on without the proper positioning of the shift forks so it more or less locked the transmission in a gear. Maybe one of the forks broke and it's staying in one gear? It will be interesting to see what the culprit is.....

04-20-2018, 10:32 PM	#23
CarlLaFong Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Sunny SoCal and Valley Mills, TX Posts: 63	Re: Lost Neutral Planetary transmissions do, indeed, have a neutral. Half pedal or half brake lever is neutral on a Model "T". Since neutral is not a gear but the lack of one, when neither the low gear band or the high gear clutches are engaged, you're in neutral, iffy as it can be. I have to repeat a previously asked question. When you shift out of first but have not yet engaged second, where are you???

04-20-2018, 10:54 PM	#24
Chuck Sea/Tac Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma Posts: 2,354	Re: Lost Neutral Just last year a friend of mine had the tranny stick in 3rd gear. He drove 40 miles home some thru stop and go traffic on 405 in Bellevue Wash. I believe he told me he found nothing wrong with the top off, and when he put it back together it was fine. Scary

04-21-2018, 10:14 AM	#27
hook00pad Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 105	Re: Lost Neutral I had a problem with my NAA Ford tractor, years ago, which would become stuck in one gear. I don't remember which gear. But the only way to get it to shift was to remove the top cover and shifter (which is similar to Model A) and use a pry bar to move the gears themselves to neutral. The shifter had become worn which allowed it to slip out of the gear slot without moving the gear. A new shifter fixed the problem. A Hook

04-21-2018, 11:06 AM	#28
CarlLaFong Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Sunny SoCal and Valley Mills, TX Posts: 63	Re: Lost Neutral As is typical with any board, there is a lack of reading comprehension going on along with a tendency to grab the ball and run in any direction. In the original post, he said that he has all the gears, yet there is no neutral. It is not stuck in two gears or any of the other, supposed, problems described. My contention is, you cannot have 4 functioning gears and not have a neutral. It is impossible

04-21-2018, 04:42 PM	#29
Chuck Sea/Tac Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma Posts: 2,354	Re: Lost Neutral So Tomball: are you saying you can actually move the car in all three gears like normal,each gear being progressive, but there is no place where you can let the clutch out without the car moving in a direction? Or does it stall the engine?

04-22-2018, 10:14 AM	#33
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Lost Neutral One possibility, the caged needle bearing between the input shaft and the output shaft. The bearings are notoriously bad as we all know. If one comes apart in that tight space, it locks the two shafts together having the effect of being in 3rd gear. It might be that when in first, second or reverse, the lower gear ratio over powers the jammed up mess in between the 2 shafts and just makes pretty silver flakes. Drain out some oil and check.