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Old 07-02-2019, 11:15 PM   #1
Chris Haynes
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Default The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I got this E Mail from Terry this evening.

Hello to All,

2 July 2019

Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and Iíll do my best to resolve the issue.

New Engine

This project started in 2007 and updates were sent by Email from April 2010 until May 2015 when it stalled because of sky-rocketing cost and lack of quality control. Previous updates can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

I apologize to the many people that requested to be on the update list after May 2015. I did not respond because the project stalled. You are now on the list.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

Another way to describe the new engine is to say that the exterior looks like a Model A engine however the interior has 1970 engine technology. Changes include 5 main bearings, counterweights on both sides of connecting rods, 2 inch diameter insert main and connecting rod bearings that can be bought at any auto parts store, oil pressure to mains, rods, and camshaft, streamlined intake ports, hard exhaust seats, thicker (3/16") water jacket wall on the water inlet side, Model B water deflector, added material between exhaust ports and cylinder, replaceable cam bearings, rear main seal that is available at any bearing supply house, and many other things.

The good news is that the Model A engine project has been resurrected and is now alive and well.

Cylinder Block

In January 2019, I received a phone call regarding the availability of the new engine, and sadly replied with the news that the project was stalled. The caller just had a newly rebuilt Model A engine fail, and in our conversation, he mentioned that he knew someone that was having replacement cylinder blocks manufactured in China, and asked if I would be interested. I replied that I was interested and wanted to learn more.

I learned that the factory manufactures cylinder blocks, heads, and even short blocks for many applications. I have a copy of their brochure and their clients include Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, Land Rover, and many others.

This factory is utilizing "state of the art" processes and quality assurance that will ensure the new Model A engine will have an exterior appearance as the original and machining tolerances similar to modern manufactured engines.

Where this project started and stalled as a one-man project, I am now working with others that have the same enthusiasm as I.

As a means of getting started, both an original cylinder block and the one good casting of the new design from Lodi Iron Works were sent to the factory along with all of my SolidWorks models. The factory measured the original cylinder block to create a SolidWorks model of the exterior and used my SolidWorks models for the interior and machining, and replied with a favorable cost estimate.

Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft

These parts are much simpler than the cylinder block. SolidWorks models have been provided and quotes from the same factory that committed to manufacture the cylinder block have been requested.

One huge advantage of working with a single factory in China is that they are responsible for everything from raw materials to finished product, When this project was active here, many factories would have been involved, and I can imagine a lot of finger pointing.

Next Update

The next update will be after preliminary bids are received for the rest of the parts and a schedule can be worked out. The initial quote for the cylinder block took less than a month, and I am hopeful that the next quote will also be short.





At this time we are hopeful that we will have the first machined samples available by late fall and will send updates on a timely basis.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Interesting! Terry is known for his quality work.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Look forward to hearing more progress. Single sourcing block, crank and rods is a huge advantage.
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Old 07-03-2019, 06:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!
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Old 07-04-2019, 03:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

We shipped 69.1 million tons of iron ore in April.
You'd think someone could make a few blocks out of it.
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Old 07-04-2019, 07:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!

I have 3 foundries here very close to me that want to cast them. the problem I am having here right now is that foundries are all very busy. But after one foundry owner called me yesterday to discuss this, and other things, I believe we are a couple of weeks away from a block using my new process. I also have a foundry that does automatic molding that is interested but it would mean making metal tooling, which I wanted to avoid.


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Old 07-04-2019, 03:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Now that this concept seems to be nearing availability, how many of you are scheming to build a much higher horsepower version? What are you considering?
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I have 3 foundries here very close to me that want to cast them. the problem I am having here right now is that foundries are all very busy. But after one foundry owner called me yesterday to discuss this, and other things, I believe we are a couple of weeks away from a block using my new process. I also have a foundry that does automatic molding that is interested but it would mean making metal tooling, which I wanted to avoid.


Tod
Now THAT is GOOD NEWS!
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Now THAT is GOOD NEWS!

Yes. I will report back after my meeting next week.



I will probably cast a 3-main iron block, a 3-main aluminum, and a 5 main aluminum this month.



Don't look for it in this thread as I don't want to hi-jack the thread.



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Old 07-04-2019, 05:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I would like to be able to build a good higher HP reliable engine for serious touring.


If I have a choice, I would much rather BUY AMERICAN and support our own industries.


Our country has suffered a great loss of basic manufacturing industries and for a strong independent country, we need to have the ability to manufacturer ourselves and not have to depend on offshore sources.


This is my opinion and I am sure others may disagree.


Chris W.
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Old 07-05-2019, 09:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It should be easy for the Chinese to cast them. About 15 years ago, I was working with Tractors, specifically Ford 8N, The old Central Tractor, in Iowa, was selling brand new engines from China for under $3000. That's NEW! Not rebuilt! So, it is entirely possible. It is also possible that foundries in the US are not up to casting something like a block. NAFTA and other "Free Trade" deals have stripped us of our skills.
Terry




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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!
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Old 07-05-2019, 03:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

[QUOTE=Terry, NJ;1774447 ............brand new engines from China for under $3000. That's NEW! Not rebuilt! So, it is entirely possible. It is also possible that foundries in the US are not up to casting something like a block. NAFTA and other "Free Trade" deals have stripped us of our skills.
Terry[/QUOTE]

Terry you are spot -on that plus the EPA got a bit out of control. By design. Part of 'the Plan.' But that's another story.............
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Old 07-05-2019, 08:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Let's really go back in time! Remember Crosely? Powell Crosely came up with a method for stamping the engine blocks. Basically, like stacking a bunch of head gaskets till you had an engine block. This is doable! The trouble was when Croseley's started delaminating and rather than come up with a solution, they started casting their blocks. Here we are,80 years hence, new materials, new methods, new adhesives, etc. It can be done!
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWPASADENA View Post
I would like to be able to build a good higher HP reliable engine for serious touring.


If I have a choice, I would much rather BUY AMERICAN and support our own industries.


Our country has suffered a great loss of basic manufacturing industries and for a strong independent country, we need to have the ability to manufacturer ourselves and not have to depend on offshore sources.


This is my opinion and I am sure others may disagree.

Chris W.

I fully understand this but let's think about it. We have the same situation here in Australia - in fact since GM and Ford closed local production, I know people who will not buy either brand because of the way the closures affected our local manufacturing. If every country took the same attitude and their people only bought locally made stuff, what would be the end game for doing so? IMO, because of the smaller scale runs, manufactured good would be more expensive all over the world, the world economy would slow, then, well, we know where that leads.
Everybody thinks that their own country - the one where they grew up and where they feel most comfortable is the best. I think they are all correct and we ignor that to our peril.
Nothing is as simple as we first think.
I have diverged from Model As so I'll leave it at that!
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Old 07-06-2019, 04:50 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Why did this turn into a political discussion. The post is about a 5 main bearing engine block. It would be nice to keep it about the engine and what it can do and acheive.
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:15 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, I guess I never knew that about the Crosley engines.

Doesn't sound like a very good idea. I don't think I'd want to be involved with that technique.

Usually the old tried and true methods come back to prevail
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:36 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Morning...All the tried and true methods were once cutting edge and thought to be damn near impossible...just think of Henry figuring out the flat head block as a one piece casting! Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-06-2019, 11:56 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Good Morning...All the tried and true methods were once cutting edge and thought to be damn near impossible...just think of Henry figuring out the flat head block as a one piece casting! Ernie in Arizona
Yes and to think they did a lot of it under cover in the old Greenfield Village shops, that project was kept pretty secret away from prying eyes.

Ford turned the automotive world on it's ear and everybody was trying to play catch up and imitate what Ford had accomplished. The man was a genius.
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Yes and to think they did a lot of it under cover in the old Greenfield Village shops, that project was kept pretty secret away from prying eyes.

Ford turned the automotive world on it's ear and everybody was trying to play catch up and imitate what Ford had accomplished. The man was a genius.
If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Because He Could!



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If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:46 AM   #21
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Unfortunately, To ignore the politics of the situation is to ignore the 800 Lb gorilla in the room! I don't like it either, in fact I hate it, but I don't ignore it. Phoney exaggerated claims of "Pollution", and cries for relief , forced a relentless Govt to create a huge remedial agency. And the NIMBYS were a big part of forcing the "Free Trade" agreements through. Someone once described the situation as being like a glass of water. We poured out the glass (That is we cleaned up the worst of the old pollution from the 1930s, 40s and 50s) Now were going after the last few drops.

Terry

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Why did this turn into a political discussion. The post is about a 5 main bearing engine block. It would be nice to keep it about the engine and what it can do and acheive.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:42 AM   #22
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Unfortunately, To ignore the politics of the situation is to ignore the 800 Lb gorilla in the room! I don't like it either, in fact I hate it, but I don't ignore it. Phoney exaggerated claims of "Pollution", and cries for relief , forced a relentless Govt to create a huge remedial agency. And the NIMBYS were a big part of forcing the "Free Trade" agreements through. Someone once described the situation as being like a glass of water. We poured out the glass (That is we cleaned up the worst of the old pollution from the 1930s, 40s and 50s) Now were going after the last few drops.

Terry
Exactly..............Like it or not what Terry said is the truth.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
Maybe because 'Clara' sounded too 'slow'???

That Dahlinger lady that went after Henry was nothing but a gold digger. I regarded her as a low life from the histories that I read..
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:32 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Henry Ford was a smart man but he had a knack for finding other smart men to make his "minds eye" ideas work. Charlie Sorensen and an author put together a book from the daily diaries that he kept while working for Henry for the 40 years he was there. It has a lot of info from the development of the model T through the model A and eventually, the V8. Charlie didn't design the model A engine either but he knew how to pattern it and cast it so he and a lot of other men put it all together. One of Henry's employees of the Ford aircraft division figured out how to get the 40-horse power out of it when it was not doing so under the original design.

Henry Ford's true genius, if you want to call it that, was as an industrialist with an eye toward complete consumerism. If you make it good and make a lot of them, the price can come down to where it will still be profitable. The more you make, the lower the price. Pay your workers well and they will be driving your new products just as well. You can call it political discussion but what it boils down to is that it would be nearly impossible to replicate what Henry did in this day and age. Too many factors have changed such as labor unions and government regulations about how to build an automobile. Just these two factors alone stifle consumerism. It's not impossible to make a profit building cars these days but just look at the prices and you can see that "every man" may not be able to afford a new Ford.

A 5-main motor will open a new chapter in the history of the model A but we won't know how it works out until folks decide they want to go that route. The old Fords weren't designed to go much more than 60 to 65 mph in original configuration but it may bring in some unknown reliability factor that attracts customers to it. It certainly wouldn't hurt a thing. A lot of folks just make a hot rod out of the old A anyway if they want to go faster.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-08-2019 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Evening all...For me, Terry's new 5 main engine might just be what gets younger folks to play with Model 'A's. If they run well and are a bit longer lasting and able to have just a bit more power and not leak on the floor...and still sound like Model 'A's...we might have 'A's running for another 90 years...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-14-2019, 06:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?




sex sells.............!
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:33 AM   #27
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will this new technology address vibration
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

An inline four of this size would need a balance shaft to be totally smooth. You have to draw the line somewhere or you will end up with a totally different animal. I would be happy with a new B block and only three mains, but I definitely respect Mr. Burtz for stepping up to the plate and trying to make his vision of a better A engine a reality.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
I wish you all the best in this effort. This is a huge undertaking and with a few breaks you could provide a path forward for those of us who want to modernize the Model A without butchering it. Good stuff!
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:27 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good on you Terry, best of luck with the Chinese, they are turning out some pretty good products these days.

Good to hear about your latest progress.

And thanks for your latest update.

Dodge
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:56 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hello Terry, great to hear you are back on deck with this project. It must be 5 or 6 years since we visited you from New Zealand and you showed us your projects. I will be thrilled to buy one of your new blocks, and head too if you make that. Will the crankshaft go ahead too, or is it too early to say?
SAJ in NZ
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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The old Fords weren't designed to go much more than 60 to 65 mph in original configuration.
You have an ďoriginalĒ babbitted Model A that will do 65 mph?

Consider it a unicorn!
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

This is not an update.

Thanks to all for your comments, questions, and encouragement.

I will try to answer a few questions.

Great to hear that the project is back on. Have you considered copying the original engine block with all of the defects, for the Purists in the club?
Regards, Ron


Yes, a goal is to make the purists happy. The cylinder block copied was manufactured after April, 1929 and has the 3 1/4 inch serial number pad and the small bump to add wall thickness when the hole from valve chamber to rear camshaft bearing was added. There were no exterior changes after the bump was added. Purists needing a cylinder block before April 1929 will have to remove the bump possibly shorten the serial number pad, and possibly remove material where the Throttle Control Assembly (A-9725) mounts. By using a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) to create a SolidWorks model from the original cylinder block, all details that are not on the original Ford drawing (A-6015) such as draft, parting line locations, protrusions where water jacket support wires exited the cylinder block, and other details were captured. Steve Plucker has an extremely detailed Cylinder Block Guide that can be found at
http://www.plucks329s.org/pdf/engine...%20guide_1.pdf


Will this new technology address vibration?
Daren


Flathead answered your question by stating that a balance shaft is needed to fully eliminate vibration. A more detailed explanation can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com/13-crank...gn-a-6303.html
Second order vibration effects are another problem. Modern inline four cylinder engines incorporate two balance shafts with counterweights turning in opposite directions and at twice engine RPM. These balance shafts cancel a second order vibration caused because the two ascending pistons and two descending pistons do not always have identical opposing acceleration. Remember the connecting rod accelerations calculated earlier at TDC and BDC (+1936 gís and Ė1081 gís). Counterweights reduce crankshaft deflections and stress, but balance shafts do not. Balance shafts reduce loads on items external to the engine and increase passenger comfort. Since balance shafts do not reduce stresses in internal engine components and since there is no physical room for them in a Model A crankcase, they have not been considered in this engineering study.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Good on you Terry, best of luck with the Chinese, they are turning out some pretty good products these days.

Good to hear about your latest progress.

And thanks for your latest update.

Dodge
I thought of this thread a day or two ago when talking to one of our club members. He hasn't taken poart in many runs lately - he is a pattern maker and they are flat out at work making switching gear for some Chinese railroad. They freely admitted that they don't trust the stuff they have been getting from their own country.
I think that speaks volumes about the country. Todd, if you can keep your work out of China, all the better.
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Old 07-21-2019, 12:27 AM   #35
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My comment is in no way meant to be political, but to explain something from my point of view when so many of you are discussing reproduction and or replacement parts for our cars that are not produced here in the United States.

For the past 40+ years I have been rebuilding & restoring small electric motors for antique cars - mostly wiper motors & washer pumps for G.M. cars that were originally built for G.M. by Delco Manufacturing in the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s.

I am only going to give one small example, but I have dozens of them just as many of the people I work for do, and all of us are in the very same situation when it comes to cost / quality / availability / and U.S.A. vs over seas suppliers (and very cheap consumers too)

My example is this; the washer pumps use small plastic nozzles - squirters, and these are either straight or 90 degrees. The sets are comprised of a base plate, the nozzles, and 5 individual rubber pieces, and every G.M. washer pump uses this example. I can have the injection tooling produced here in the USA by more than one company, and just the 3 pieces of tooling comes to more than $40,000 by the least expensive companies quote. The minimum initial order needed for each item would have been 20,000 pieces (60k total)
and the average cost per piece was nearly $1.35 each. Amortize the cost of the tooling into the per piece and figuring my first order, I need to come up with $121,000. I located a manufacturer in India that produces, among other things, many of the plastic interior components for Lexus corp. and their quotes were the average of all that I received. MY tooling costs were nearly $2,000 each, my minimum run were at 2,000 pieces each, and my per piece cost was at $.42 each - plus shipping, import duties, VACS etc.

I can either have the parts made here in the USA or have them made over seas- my customers are NOT WILLING to pay the cost of the items if they are made here in the states, but are willing to pay less and look the other way
for these and other items that all of them need!

So lets assume that Terry Burtz is able to produce a short block engine here in the states for $8,000 to $10,000 and one in China for $3,000, which one are all of you patriots going to buy to continue our hobby?

Look at Todd and all of his personal efforts to produce something we all need, but few of us will ultimately buy; he's producing a great USA made block to our specifications, but he has to do EVERYTHING himself because either no one is capable of producing it or no one is willing to produce it. Where will he be with the cost of his block, what about the crank, rods & pistons, cam shaft
& lifters, valve train and other components?

Soooo, in conclusion, to all of you complaining about foreign made parts but are not willing to pay the cost of American made parts, STOP YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING - step up to the plate and produce something here in the USA , risk some of your hard earned retirement and solve all of our problems by offering something we need for far less than you have invested in it because people will not pay you what you ask, just to break even!
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Old 07-21-2019, 01:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve, Well said!
But the same applies here and I'm sure all over the world so don't feel special
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:18 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Bernie will give out free blocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve hackel View Post
My comment is in no way meant to be political, but to explain something from my point of view when so many of you are discussing reproduction and or replacement parts for our cars that are not produced here in the United States.

For the past 40+ years I have been rebuilding & restoring small electric motors for antique cars - mostly wiper motors & washer pumps for G.M. cars that were originally built for G.M. by Delco Manufacturing in the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s.

I am only going to give one small example, but I have dozens of them just as many of the people I work for do, and all of us are in the very same situation when it comes to cost / quality / availability / and U.S.A. vs over seas suppliers (and very cheap consumers too)

My example is this; the washer pumps use small plastic nozzles - squirters, and these are either straight or 90 degrees. The sets are comprised of a base plate, the nozzles, and 5 individual rubber pieces, and every G.M. washer pump uses this example. I can have the injection tooling produced here in the USA by more than one company, and just the 3 pieces of tooling comes to more than $40,000 by the least expensive companies quote. The minimum initial order needed for each item would have been 20,000 pieces (60k total)
and the average cost per piece was nearly $1.35 each. Amortize the cost of the tooling into the per piece and figuring my first order, I need to come up with $121,000. I located a manufacturer in India that produces, among other things, many of the plastic interior components for Lexus corp. and their quotes were the average of all that I received. MY tooling costs were nearly $2,000 each, my minimum run were at 2,000 pieces each, and my per piece cost was at $.42 each - plus shipping, import duties, VACS etc.

I can either have the parts made here in the USA or have them made over seas- my customers are NOT WILLING to pay the cost of the items if they are made here in the states, but are willing to pay less and look the other way
for these and other items that all of them need!

So lets assume that Terry Burtz is able to produce a short block engine here in the states for $8,000 to $10,000 and one in China for $3,000, which one are all of you patriots going to buy to continue our hobby?

Look at Todd and all of his personal efforts to produce something we all need, but few of us will ultimately buy; he's producing a great USA made block to our specifications, but he has to do EVERYTHING himself because either no one is capable of producing it or no one is willing to produce it. Where will he be with the cost of his block, what about the crank, rods & pistons, cam shaft
& lifters, valve train and other components?

Soooo, in conclusion, to all of you complaining about foreign made parts but are not willing to pay the cost of American made parts, STOP YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING - step up to the plate and produce something here in the USA , risk some of your hard earned retirement and solve all of our problems by offering something we need for far less than you have invested in it because people will not pay you what you ask, just to break even!
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:21 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve Hackle, thank you for your post.

Your experiences mirror mine exactly with trying to have something made in the USA.

When I started this project more than 10 years ago and wanted to keep it in the USA, my quote for foundry tooling was more than $150,000.

The current quote for tooling in China is in the $40,000 range.

My USA foundry experiences have led me to believe that the bigger problem is the lack of knowledgable engineers, lack of knowledgable workers, and lack of quality control in the foundries that I attempted to use. Foundries that I am familiar with do not use procedures to assemble cores, make molds, or pour iron.

In today's market and my experiences, USA foundries would rather cast manhole covers which are much easier to cast than cylinder blocks because there is little need to follow a procedure or have quality control when casting manhole covers.

The factory in China that we are working with specializes in making cylinder blocks, heads, connecting rods, and crankshafts. They do not make manhole covers.

Terry Burtz
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:43 AM   #39
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Terry,
Did you see that in Good old Berkeley California you can't call them manhole covers
anymore, their now maintenance hold covers......true story

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Old 07-21-2019, 06:27 AM   #40
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Steve Hackle, thank you for your post.



My USA foundry experiences have led me to believe that the bigger problem is the lack of knowledgable engineers, lack of knowledgable workers, and lack of quality control in the foundries that I attempted to use. Foundries that I am familiar with do not use procedures to assemble cores, make molds, or pour iron.

In today's market and my experiences, USA foundries would rather cast manhole covers which are much easier to cast than cylinder blocks because there is little need to follow a procedure or have quality control when casting manhole covers.

The factory in China that we are working with specializes in making cylinder blocks, heads, connecting rods, and crankshafts. They do not make manhole covers.

Terry Burtz
I'm sure things are just the same over there as here. Decisions on what a company will do are made not by those who know the business but by accountants who know nothing but counting beans!
In my book, accountants have a lot to account for, if you get my drift!
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:45 AM   #41
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

First let me comment that I have the utmost respect for Terry and Tod for taking on this task.

So now the real discussion has started. The available market to sell these engines and/or components. The limited markets I see are three, Restored show cars, Touring cars and the Hot Rod/Racing market.

I cannot comment on the viable Restoration market, so someone else can help out here.

Touring is the largest market I see, some engineering improvements and improved materials can make a more reliable engine, both Terry and Tod have been working on these requirements. The motor has inherent design considerations that will never make it comparable to a modern engine though.

I have read about people thinking the HotRod and Racing market is viable. To some degree yes, but the Racing market is restricted by the rules of the organizations and the rule as it stands is the blocks must be original manufacture units. There are other restrictions but this is a tough one to overcome. The HotRod market is not restricted with the exception of investment. The Donovan "E" motor is a beast, aluminium (lots of it) 5 mains, larger than "B" motor, proper oiling system, ect. Depending on who you talk to, 50 units sold over how many years?

So the bottom line question;
How many units do we think can be moved along?
Honestly, if the demand was for 1000 units and the commitment was there I am sure Terry or Tod would have units available now.

BTW, Tod has one block done and running,(at least shown in a video) I know someone who has been waiting for his block going on 18-ish months.

Best, John
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:28 AM   #42
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Morning all...Many Model 'A's are running with fragile patched up engine blocks that don't have a great deal of life left in them. A question to the engine builders on the barn...How many of you would order blocks from Terry for your customers and at what price do you think you could successfully offer them to your customers? I know that I would order one...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

from just this last week, Tod posted this on the HAMB
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OHV and block 1.jpg (42.2 KB, 184 views)
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:03 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

That picture of Todd's new block & OHV head is so darn nice.....
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:25 PM   #45
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That picture of Todd's new block & OHV head is so darn nice.....
Agreed, but how many in the hobby will 'put their money where their mouth is"? A lot of 'I like it', but how many "I WILL buy it"s out there??
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:42 PM   #46
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Although somewhat long winded, that was my point exactly! No matter what most people say or where they are coming from, they tend to shop " dollars " rather than availability or quality , so their decision is usually related to liking the better product but liking the cheaper price even more. Retail products are not individual swap meet items for sale on a vendors table. If you can find the exact same item for less $ elseware, go right ahead and buy from that person - if you find a similar item for less, then buy that item instead - but don't complain that it's not the same quality of the more expensive one you passed on to buy the one you are holding in your hand.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve,

the silence is deafening

a short recent Chinese story;
a manufacturer of autoclaves recently won the contract to build a large unit for an aircraft mfg in china. in the notes for construction, "due to quality control issues, no critical components of the pressure vessel may be made from steel produced in china"
that is a statement right there.

John
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:59 PM   #48
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So sad but true.... I am both at the mercy of a USA buyer and a foreign manufacturer, and neither of them are ever happy meeting in the middle
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:40 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Most A owners are 70+ and bitch about a qt of synthetic oil costs 6 bucks!
You think they will pay thousands for a block?
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:36 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

To do a proper rebuild on an original engine is a lot of money. If a person is willing to fork over that much, the additional money to have a new, high quality block seems pretty much a no brainer. There will always be some who stand by and second guess every bit of progress made, but give it a few years, we'll see. I happen to think the new block will sell well. I dont think a new block, even an aluminum one, will face the same discrimination as say fiberglass fenders do.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:38 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I just had my engine rebuilt at a cost of $5,500.00. Inserted, Pressure oiling, "B" counterbalanced crank. All these are features are in Terry's parts and much better than what I have.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:15 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris,

can you elaborate on the build some?
1. repairs to make block sound, stitching, seats, sleeves etc.
2. "A" or "B" block
3. original cost of block, crank, rods, pistons etc.
4. what else, flywheel lightening? clutch change? cam, change or regrind?

Also, if "B" block, which main bearings were installed?

Thanks, John
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:06 AM   #53
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

we have 4 on order from Tod
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Old 07-23-2019, 03:03 AM   #54
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To do a proper rebuild on an original engine is a lot of money. If a person is willing to fork over that much, the additional money to have a new, high quality block seems pretty much a no brainer. There will always be some who stand by and second guess every bit of progress made, but give it a few years, we'll see. I happen to think the new block will sell well. I dont think a new block, even an aluminum one, will face the same discrimination as say fiberglass fenders do.
Eagle, I agree 100% on your comment.
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:11 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I think Terry's engine is great, it might spark new interest in younger people, you might see more model A's on the road. Everything new needs to have the bugs worked out of it, how will these engines be tested, on an engine stand running constantly for days on end or in a vehicle?
thanks
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:09 AM   #56
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I have not seen a price for one of these?
That is where the rubber meets the road folks.

5-6 K might work
Much more and out of the park.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:25 PM   #57
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Chris,

can you elaborate on the build some?
1. repairs to make block sound, stitching, seats, sleeves etc. No block repairs.

2. "A" or "B" block. Diamond "A" Block.

3. original cost of block, crank, rods, pistons etc. The Block was in my car along with the rods. The "B" Crank and pistons are included in the rebuild costs.

4. what else, flywheel lightening? clutch change? cam, change or regrind? A Birely cam. V8 clutch.

Also, if "B" block, which main bearings were installed? Not a :B: Block.

Thanks, John
It is an inserted engine with pressure oil, Adjustable lifters, "B" crank, Lightened flywheel & V8 clutch, Vibration dampener, Mallory distributor, Webber carburetor, topped off with a Yapp Riley Two Port Head. I have been gathering parts for years for this build.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Chris,

Will it be ready for the San Fernando Valley Model A Swap Meet? It would be nice to see it and hear it run.

At least you should make a YouTube video like Charlie Yapp did for the Cyclone head.

David Serrano
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:37 PM   #59
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I have not seen a price for one of these?
That is where the rubber meets the road folks.

5-6 K might work
Much more and out of the park.
Dave,

I think that is one of the main reasons why a lot of people hesitate to buy a new block. It's not necessarily the cost but buyers want to know what they are getting for the price, e.g., will it require a lot of extra machining, can my engine builder work with the new block, etc.

Making small batches of blocks makes it difficult to set a consistent price because the fabricator is trying to recover his costs on each unit or make a small profit. Also, a small foundry may not be able guarantee a volume of engines for a set price.

What about a guarantee? Do I have any recourse if the block is defective?

It's fine if you are a trained machinest and have the equipment to play with a new block. Unfortunately, I'm don't have those skills or machinery. I would have to find a machine shop to do the work and the cost would be an unknown factor.

David Serrano
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:57 PM   #60
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris,


sounds like it will be a good running motor.

the head was not included in the cost mentioned? right?

curious on the "B" crank mod to fit in "A" block, also is it cross drilled to feed the rods?

thanks, John
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:24 PM   #61
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Hey Chris,

Will it be ready for the San Fernando Valley Model A Swap Meet? It would be nice to see it and hear it run.

At least you should make a YouTube video like Charlie Yapp did for the Cyclone head.

David Serrano
Probably not as it is too damn hot to work on it.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:28 PM   #62
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Chris,


sounds like it will be a good running motor.

the head was not included in the cost mentioned? right?

curious on the "B" crank mod to fit in "A" block, also is it cross drilled to feed the rods?

thanks, John
I bought the head well over a decade ago. They are now obsolete as Charlie has stopped producing them. I also had he flywheel, harmonic balancer on hand. I know that Joe Sivils built the engine for pressure oiling. I'll have to ask him about the crank.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:10 AM   #63
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks
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Old 07-24-2019, 12:26 PM   #64
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When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks
He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods.


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Old 07-24-2019, 12:53 PM   #65
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods."

Who's engine are you referring to? This thread has turned away from the original title.

The Terry Burtz engine will have a machined block with a machined crankshaft with machined rods to fit the block.
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:09 PM   #66
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Again, this is not an update, but I will try to answer some questions.

Many questions ask about price. I cannot answer because I am not involved in negotiations with the factory. All I can say is that the new engine price will be competitive with a rebuilt engine that has inserts, crankshaft counterweights, connecting rods with inserts, and is balanced.




Hi Terry
Glad to see your project is moving again. Do you know Tod Buttermore? He is also just about to start production on his new model a engine. I'm not sure there is enough market to handle 2 new model a engine blocks. You might want to contact him and see if you can work together and build on fantastic new block.
Thanks, Eric


After the project stalled in California due to lack of quality control, inability to follow a procedure, and spiraling cost, I contacted Tod in Jan. 2015 in an attempt to work with him. Although we are competitors, we have no animosity. Pasted below is our Emails.

Tod Buttermore <revc351@yahoo.com>
Fri 1/16/2015 9:57 AM

Terry,

I took a quick look at the pattern pictures and I would have to say that none of the foundries around me could use that tooling as it is. Given the work load I have, I don't think I would have time in the foreseeable future to be of any help to you. I would think there has to be a foundry closer to your home that can do that casting. The only reason my foundry can do anything for me is because I am involved. Sorry for the let down.

Tod

Tod Buttermore <revc351@yahoo.com>
Tue 1/13/2015 4:09 AM
Terry,
Email received. I will look at the pictures and give you my assessment.
Tod

On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 12:20 AM, Terry <terryandgus@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tod,
It was good talking with you about the New Model A Engine Project.
I have been working with Lodi Iron Works. When their only technical person in the office retired, this project shifted to the back burner.
Engineering is based on the original Ford drawings of the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rod.
SolidWorks and rapid-prototyping were used to create "masters". These masters were then used to create the foundry tooling.
The machined castings are documented with SolidWorks.
The tooling has produced several good castings if you don't count foundry screw-ups like failure to dry the water based mold wash, failure to fully engage core prints, interrupting the pour which caused a cold shut, etc. Only one good cylinder block without screw-ups has been cast, and that cannot be repeated because the personnel working on the floor that made the good casting are no longer employed at Lodi Iron Works.
The tooling pictures are located in my skydrive. You can access them from the link below:
http://1drv.ms/1dOxxFe
or
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...=folder%2c.JPG
At Lodi Iron Works, all core boxes were filled with PepSet with the exception of the water jacket core boxes.The water jacket core boxes were blown using IsoCure.
The last picture shows the pattern for the crankshaft and the next to last picture shows the aluminum match-plates for connecting rods and main caps that fit Lodi's automated molding line.
Over the next few days, I will send the core assembly procedure, pictures of assembled cores, pictures of castings, and pictures taken in the foundry.
I hope that we can work together to provide this new product to the Model A hobby.
Please reply so that I know that Email works and that you were able to view the skydrive pictures.
Terry Burtz



Hello Terry
I figured the engine project had stalled, and I'm glad to see you're back at it!
Will the block be cast iron?
Best regards, Carl


Yes, the cylinder block will be a cast iron. On drawing A-6015 Ford specified "A" iron. To keep costs at a minimum, instead of us specifying an antique alloy like "A" iron, the alloy chosen will be one that the factory uses for modern engine cylinder blocks.. The main bearing caps, connecting rods, and crankshaft will be a modern malleable iron, and again, it will be an alloy that the factory uses for modern engines. I have asked for properties of these alloys and will be happy to share them with anyone interested.



Good Morning Terry:
When you can quote either parts or and assembled short block please advise.
I have a ďBĒ engine sitting on my Garage Floor but if this new engine were ready to go I think it would be the ďreal dealĒ.
Question
How would you handle Engine Block Numbers?
Thank you, Al


We are working with the factory to get quotes on parts, not a short block. The reason for not providing a short block is that most people want to choose the valve train that they want, choose pistons that they want, choose cam and timing gears that they want, along with other variables. Many people also have a collection of parts on the shelf that is waiting for the next rebuild. Regarding engine block numbers, for quality control purposes, after a cylinder block passes final inspection, a unique sequential serial number will be stamped on the machined surface where the A-6017 "Cylinder timing gear cover side" is mounted. On an assembled engine, this number is hidden, but easily accessible by removing a few bolts. The pad above the water inlet on the side of the cylinder block will be blank unless you request that we stamp it. We have the correct stamps with the different numbers (depending on serial number), and we can stamp it for you.



How about creating a go Fund Me page or a Kickstarter page to fund this?
Anne


Thank you for your suggestion. Money is not the problem. Many people have offered to make a deposit, The problem is to find a competent manufacturing facility that can produce a quality product for an affordable price. The project stalled several years ago due to spiraling costs and lack of quality control.



________________________________________
Hello Terry, great to hear you are back on deck with this project. It must be 5 or 6 years since we visited you from New Zealand and you showed us your projects. I will be thrilled to buy one of your new blocks, and head too if you make that. Will the crankshaft go ahead too, or is it too early to say?
SAJ in NZ


For this project, the crankshaft and connecting rods are included. Any head can be used because all interfaces for attaching parts are exactly as original.





When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks


Nothing needs to be dismantled. The "new engine" consists of a fully machined cylinder block, connecting rods and a crankshaft. The Ford drawing for machining the cylinder block calls for the cylinders to be reamed to 3.873 to 3.874 inch diameter, and then rolled to 3.875 to 3.876 inch diameter. Rolling does not produce a very good surface for the rings, so the plan is to have a diameter between 3.875 and 3.876 inch diameter with a honed 45 degree cross-hatched surface finish. See the following for surface finish. https://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceT...efinishing.htm
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:14 PM   #67
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denniskliesen View Post
"He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods."

Who's engine are you referring to? This thread has turned away from the original title.

The Terry Burtz engine will have a machined block with a machined crankshaft with machined rods to fit the block.
The pictures I posted are of Terry's test castings.
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:05 PM   #68
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Thanks for the detailed answers to the questions that have been posed. The clear and concise answers give a non-technical person like me a lot of confidence in your project and the product you will deliver.

David Serrano
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Old 08-19-2019, 01:25 PM   #69
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I received the following progress update from Terry Burtz today:

-----------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

19 August 2019


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

Also see: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782 for additional information.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others to have the "new engine" manufactured in China at a factory that manufactures OEM parts for several customers.

The others that I will be working with include John, Bill, and Leonard. John has a company in Hong Kong and Virginia and has over 30 years of experience in having things manufactured in China and imported into the USA. One of John's products is a vintage cast iron 4-cylinder 3-main L-head cylinder block similar to a Model A cylinder block. John will be responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance. Bill will be responsible for accounting and disbursements. Leonard will be responsible for receiving orders and shipping the "new engines" to customers, and maintaining a list that ties customer names to the hidden serial number (part of quality assurance). I am the 4th member of the team and I will be responsible for everything related to engineering.

The 4 of us met at Leonard's home in Santa Ana, CA on the morning of Friday, August 16 to get to know each other and discuss our working relationships, and responsibilities. Leonard and his wife Kay were preparing for an annual meeting where the members of the Orange County Model A club, Southern California Oldsmobile Club and Antique Engine Club get together for a fun and educational meeting on Saturday, August 17.

After meeting with Leonard on Friday, John, Bill, and I retreated to the hotel where we were staying to have a 5-hour technical discussion regarding the new engine project. Many things were discussed including surface finishes, dimensional tolerances to 4 digits in certain areas, casting wall thickness, press and slip fits for dowel pins, hard exhaust valve seats, replaceable camshaft bearings, balancing, different alloys of iron (cast and ductile) that will be used for different parts, small parts that will be included like the dowel pins that locate the flywheel housing to the cylinder block, main bearing studs, and nuts, dowel pins in the crankshaft where the flywheel is attached, woodruff key for crankshaft timing gear, connecting rod wrist pin bushing, connecting rod bolts, and much more. Also discussed is the need for verification of design by third parties before the factory is turned on for production.

We talked about asking for a small quantity (6 sets of parts at most) for evaluation before production. One set of parts will be used for display and shown with pan rail up so people can see the 5 main bearings, crankshaft counterweights on both sides of each connecting rod, bosses for oil passages, rear main seal design, and many other features. The other sets of parts will be built by others for testing and evaluation.

John is a hands-on, grease under the fingernails type of guy who has a passion for detail and we can talk for hours about everything from Chinese culture and their way of doing things to the smallest technical detail.

On Saturday at Leonard's, I gave about an hour-long presentation to the attendees regarding the "new engine" which included features of the new design, history of problems with working with foundries in California, how the project stalled in 2015 because of the lack of quality control and spiraling cost increases, and how the project was resurrected when Leonard put me in contact with John. After I spoke, there was a question and answer discussion where the audience asked technical questions and I was happy to answer them.

The picture attached was taken while I was talking. I am wearing the straw hat by the "no speed limit" sign and John is wearing the white shirt and standing in front of the black toolbox.

John will be traveling to China in early September for technical discussions with the factory. If any questions arise, I am a phone call or email away.

Even with the added tariff on auto parts from China, our goal is to provide a quality product at an affordable price that is competitive with the cost of a rebuilt engine.

A deposit to cover 1/2 of the tooling cost has been made, and tooling is now being designed.


Cylinder Block

As mentioned in the 2 July 2019 update, 2 cylinder blocks were sent to China. One was original and the other was the one good casting made by Lodi Iron Works. In addition, SolidWorks files of the internal cores and machining were sent.

Although existing tooling has made cylinder blocks in 2 different foundries in California, all new tooling will be made in China. The reason for this is because the factory in China needs to assume full responsibility. The factory in China has been told that my SolidWorks files of the interior are for reference and can be modified as needed, however, the SolidWorks file for machining cannot be modified. If the factory in China were to use my tooling and/or interior SolidWorks files as is and had a problem, it could be argued that we gave them direction and that I was responsible for the problem.


Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft

These parts are much simpler than the cylinder block and they will be made of malleable iron. The 1932 Ford V-8 crankshaft was cast malleable iron, and most modern engines use malleable iron crankshafts.

SolidWorks models have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China is to follow the SolidWorks models.

Dimensional and balancing tolerances are being specified to be equal or exceed the tolerances on the Ford drawings.


Next Update

We are hopeful that we will have the first machined samples available by late fall and will send updates including pictures as the project matures.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

.
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File Type: jpg Seminar Picture at Leonards.jpg (128.4 KB, 190 views)

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Old 08-21-2019, 12:19 AM   #70
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,


Thank you for the very informative update.


It sounds like you have really done your homework.


The Model A hobby is looking forward to having a source for good quality new upgraded engine components.


Chris W.
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Old 08-23-2019, 01:59 PM   #71
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I want to thank everyone for Emailing encouraging comments and asking questions. Sometimes 2 or more people ask the same question. When this happens, I just pick one question to answer. Questions are unedited with the exception that I remove last names. It takes 2 days to send the updates by Email to contacts on my Email list because my free Hotmail account will only allow me send 500 BCC Emails in a 24 hour period, and I can only send 50 at a time.


Terry,
I see your back on the new engine. I have a few questions, first is what size are the main bearings @ inch like the B?, will it be oil pressurized? will the cam bores be larger than stock, are you going to use the Model B exhaust port design which flows better?
Thanks
Bill


All 9 bearing journals (rods and mains) on the crankshaft are specified to be between 2.0000 and 1.9990 inch diameter with .125 inch fillet radii. The insert chosen is used in GM engines built from 1955 to 2003. Front, center and rear mains use a pair of inserts. Intermediate mains (2 and 4) and connecting rods use a single insert. The insert is Sealed Power #2020CP. Do a Google search and you will find many sources.

Oil pressure will be supplied to all 9 crankshaft bearings. There are 5 camshaft bushings that are replaceable. The front, center, and rear camshaft bushings will have oil pressure supplied to them. The #2 and #4 camshaft bushings will block off the drilled oil passages. The engine builder will leave these passages blocked if using a 3 bearing camshaft. If using a 5 bearing camshaft, the bushings should be drilled to provide oil pressure.

Inside diameter of camshaft bushings is specified to be between 1.5615 and 1.5625 inch diameter which is stock Model A. If you wanted larger camshaft bores in the cylinder block for a higher lift camshaft, just remove the camshaft bushings and let the larger camshaft journals ride on the cast iron cylinder block like a stock Model A.

Exhaust ports are stock except that they have replaceable hard seats (MAHLE 218-7535). Intake ports have a streamlined flow path however they are stock size. Engine builders are usually concerned about intake port flow, not exhaust port flow. Intakes do not have hard seats so they can be enlarged by engine builders for larger valves.

More can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com



Hi Terry,
Great news. I think itís really going to happen this time it sounds like you connected with the right people.
I attended one of your seminars at your house after one of the castings came back
and saw first hand what your doing.
My comment is that maybe you should also consider a flywheel as the counter weights add some mass that could be taken out of the flywheel and it would also be nice to have it made to take the modern diaphragm clutch people are using.
The flywheel cost would probably be in line with what it costs to lighten and modify
A stock one.
Thanks for getting going again,
Dodge



My fingers are crossed in anticipation that the design will become reality. I believe that we have the right team to pull this off. A much lighter weight flywheel will be our next project. John, our team member that is responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance has flywheels manufactured in China for another application. For some unknown reason to me, Ford cast Model A flywheels in a vertical position instead of horizontal. If you were to lighten a stock flywheel, porosity (on the side that was up while casting) is always opposite to the balance hole. We will cast flywheels horizontally with the ring gear side up so any porosity will be on the ring gear side. Our new flywheel will also have the ring gear support shoulder on the other side of the ring gear so that engagement of the Bendix will not apply forces that want to remove the gear instead of pushing it harder against the shoulder.



Hi Terry, nice to see that you are making progress on the motor. My local foundry have just completed a totally new design for twelve cylinder Ferrari cylinder heads, also new inlet
manifold for six webber ( special short Ferrari type) outstanding job. They are also casting V8 85 twin spark cylinder heads from original patterns.
If you have any further trouble give them a call. Mr Robin Hyhof, Giltec Catings Dunedin.
They have done some complex castings for me in both alloy and bronze.
Cheers,
Ken



That sounds like a very capable foundry in New Zealand. Thank you for the contact information. Unfortunately, Model A people are cheap and cannot afford the same things that Ferrari people throw money at.




Hello Terry

Congratulations on getting your engine project going again. Will the new blocks accommodate five-bearing camshafts like the early 1928 Model As? That would provide better cam support for running overheads.

In the past you mentioned using roll pins to index the bearing caps to the engine block. Are they sufficiently stable compared to dowel pins?

Best regards,--Carl



See the answer to Bill at the beginning where I talked about 5 cam bushings, replaceable cam bushings, oil pressure, removing cam bushings for a higher lift camshaft, etc.

Instead of roll pins, I specified 1/8 inch diameter x 3/8 inch long dowel pins (McMaster Carr 98381A470). The cylinder block will have a press fit and the main cap will have a slip fit.

Roll pins are nice because hole diameters do not need to be as precise.



Terry,
Thank you for the update. I. Appreciate being kept in the loop. Perhaps thus would make a great mate fir our Cyclone A-B Cylinder Head.
Thx
Kevin



All stock interfaces for attached parts have been documented from Ford drawings so any after-market parts will work if they fit a stock Model A engine.



I wouldn't be surprised if someone builds one of these up with a supercharger and electronic fuel injection. A cast steel crank option would be good for that. Gregg


Iron foundries usually pour cast iron and malleable iron alloys. Steel parts are usually poured in a different foundry. It could be done but at a higher cost.





Terry
Will assembly be in China? Or US?
Joe.



The "New Engine" consists of a cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods.
These will be loose parts and the engine builder will have his choice of pistons, rings, camshaft, valve train, timing gears, insert bearings, etc.

The only assembly that will be done in China is wrist pin bushings in the connecting rods, dowel pins at the connecting rod cap interface, camshaft bushings in the cylinder block. 10 dowel pins in the cylinder block for main cap indexing, 2 dowel pins in cylinder block to align flywheel housing, 4 hard seats in the cylinder exhaust ports, 2 dowel pins in the crankshaft for flywheel alignment, and the Woodruff key in the crankshaft.



Is there a real need for camshaft bearings? Will the crank be hardened so it won't wear in the bearing areas? Will the main and rod bearings be available "off the shelf", i.e. small block Chevy or similar, or special made for your engine? Jim



Modern engines have replaceable cam bearings, and that is why we chose to use them. For a stock engine with light valve spring pressure, cam bearings are not needed. If someone wanted to make a new camshaft with higher lift lobes, the camshaft bearings could be removed and the larger camshaft journals on the new camshaft would ride on the cast iron cylinder block.

The crankshaft will have the same material and heat treat as similar crankshafts being made.

Front, center and rear mains use a pair of inserts. Intermediate mains (2 and 4) and connecting rods use a single insert. The insert is Sealed Power #2020CP which is used in many 4,6, and 8 cylinder engines and they were used from 1955 until 2003. The inserts are very common and they were used in small block Chevy's and many other engines. They are available at most any auto parts store and even from Amazon and Ebay.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:48 PM   #72
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Dear Terry,
I have extremely limited experience of Chinese made parts but I understand that they can be less than rigorous when it comes to materials to the point where you may get a part that machines like cheese, or glass. I’m very impressed with your persistence and progress so far and as a Model A parts seller and restorer I’m very interested in your blocks.
Best Wishes, Rob


Parts made in China without good quality control can have the problems that you describe. The factory that has been selected specializes in the manufacture of cylinder blocks and other engine components, and they have excellent quality control. John (our team member responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance) will not accept anything unless it meets our requirements.




HI Terry,
Thanks for the update.
I have a question re the new engine, are you intending for it to have a fully pressurized oiling system?
Regards Peter


Yes, all 9 crankshaft bearings and all camshaft bearings will be supplied with oil under pressure. The crankshaft is also drilled to provide oil to the connecting rod bearings.

There are many other changes, and I encourage you to check out
http://www.modelaengine.com





My name is Stephen ,I. Own and drive a 1928 Model A Ford .
Just finishing a long drive Toronto to Nova Scotia about 3000 km .
Wish some how this engine could be made in the USA . I am a aircraft mechanic and
tolerances in my field are close. A lot of the after market parts are made in China
under Fords blessings .Much of it I buy from the. Mac. Snyder’s Burt’s these parts are
terrible /fit / longevity ,now you want them to build an engine I find that a Bit?
Got to be a way to keep the price and Jobs in AMERICA. and not to drive this engine off shore.
After three engine overhauls finally found one In Stokie ‘s that giving me the milage.
But I would like to buy an engine that a do not need to bring a tool chest with me..




I would be happy to have this engine produced in the USA, and tried to work with manufacturers in the USA for several years. When costs started spiraling upwards (from $800 to $2400) for just a raw cylinder block casting and there was no quality assurance to guarantee that the casting would not be full of porosity or have core shift, I put the project on hold in May 2015 because it became unaffordable (unless you want to spend $8000 or more). The project was revived as told in the previous (June) update when the team of John, Bill, Leonard, and myself agreed to revive it and make it affordable. John will be responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance. He has over 30 years of experience manufacturing parts (including iron cylinder blocks and other automobile parts) and is familiar with 4-place dimensional tolerances and quality control requirements.

The industry of casting and forging iron and steel has moved to third world countries, and that is where we had to go.

Ford does not bless and has no control over the terrible fitting aftermarket parts that you mention. For a fee, you can use the trademarked Ford oval and name on your product and packaging. Ford does not approve any design documentation for the part and has no control regarding quality control.





Hi Terry,
Receiving this latest update is very encouraging and exciting as a Model A guy.
Please add me to your email list, I get the emails through a Model A friend.
Have been following your project for several years and tried to find casting guys on the East coast to no avail.

Sounds like the team you've been fortunate to assemble is finally on the trail you had hoped for in you vision of an A engine upgrade.

I'm an electrical Eng by training and a mechanical engineer through my auto passion that has led me to be a manufacturing engineer in my present career.
As such, If at all possible I would love the opportunity to be one of your early Alpha customers to provide feedback on everything from fit/function/ integrity and overall performance.

Sad as it is, It does seem as if china and India are the only places that can do iron castings these days from what I can find out talking to casting source contacts I've made.

Best regards, best of luck in this new and exciting chapter of a modern A engine

Please feel free to ask if there is someway I can help you

Paul



Thanks for the encouraging words. Your observations regarding trying to find foundries on the East coast is the same on the West coast. During WW2 there were many shipyards around San Francisco Bay that were producing Liberty ships and others at a rate that was greater than the Axis powers could sink them. All of these ships required tons of iron castings that were poured and machined locally. Today, all of the shipyards, foundries and large machine shops are all gone.



Good day Terry,
Terry, if there is anything I can do to help, please feel free to ping me. I have been following your project for years.
I am interested in the project, I would love to contribute, I am willing to pre-order and pay for components, build and field test engines and provide field feed-back, I am not looking for anything but to help, I have a love for the hobby and have been running Model A’s for over 40 years. I am an avid car collector/builder and have built cars for museums and individuals, ranging from early Corvettes, vintage Chryslers, Chevys and of course Model A’s, as-well as hot-rods and vintage aircraft, I am a licensed Airframe/Engine tech and Pilot.

I am interested in field testing (I have several Model A’s that I can swap engines into), it’s common for me to tour for hundreds of miles on a single tour with the club that I am charter member of (the Worcester County Model A Club). Therefore it would not take long to begin to see field testing results. I have Model A’s with Mitchel Over-Drives, I could feedback results of performance with and without over-drives. I typically run Model B engines with the 40% bob-weight c-balance crank and 6.5:1 compression and all the Model B accessories. I would build engines at the horsepower you deem necessary for testing, whether it be mild or not, I would think most interested parties would be looking for something around 55/65hp, with an engine that can run at as much as 5000rpm, the Model A would comfortable when cruising at 2000 to 2500rpm, its perfect.

If there is anything I can do to help, please do not hesitate, I manage an ISO 17025 accredited dimensioned measuring laboratory, we hold temperature to 680F +/- 10F, therefore we know a little bit about measuring artifacts to exceedingly tight tolerances, including all sorts of hard dimensional gages, right down to good-old Gageblocks, our measuring capabilities are virtually unlimited, attributes such as; heights, parallel, squareness, bore size, lengths, pin diameter, Etc., Etc., is not a problem, and typically to six decimal places, or more. We also work with force, pressure and electronics, oven surveys, as-well-as others, for the sake of conversation.

Have a good day, and thanks for taking the time to see this project through, and thanks for taking the time to read this note. Ralph



Thank you for commenting. We are looking for independent third-party verification of the design. You have the skill-set that we are looking for.




Thanks Terry,
I hope this goes well for you.
My Son Tony is purchasing the machine shop from me but I am still doing R&D on new performance products. I have something I would like to ask and that would be an off the shelf tappet or lifter seems it’s getting harder to get adjustable lifters the problem is they should have a minimum foot of 1-1/8 or better yet the B lifter size of 1-3/16 that allows for better cam profile designs. I believe on the larger cam bore that will give me more room for profile design also.

Second question is oil pumps, are you bringing the oil out through a filter first with you insert bearing?
Thanks
Bill



All stock interfaces including the lifter bores are the same as an original Model A Ford cylinder block.

We are planning to make other parts in the future and will look at making an adjustable tappet with a larger diameter foot. Right now, we have our hands full with the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods.

Regarding oil circulation, a new "Oil Pump Drive Bearing" A-6560 will be provided. The new A-6560 is secured with a setscrew and will block off oil.

In the valve chamber, there is a horizontal passage (Full-length oil galley) between lifter bosses and cylinders that feeds oil to all crankshaft and camshaft bearings.

Oil can take one of two paths. For a stock unfiltered engine, there is a horizontal passage behind the 1/8 inch pipe plug on the side of the cylinder block which leads to a vertical passage which connects to the full-length oil galley. For a filtered engine, the horizontal passage behind the 1/8 inch pipe plug is plugged with a setscrew and all oil exits through the 1/8 inch plug. From there, oil goes through a filter and returns to the engine through the lower bolt of the "Cylinder Timing Gear Cover Side" (A-6017) which connects to the full-length oil galley.

Last edited by Terry Burtz, Calif; 08-25-2019 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 04:49 PM   #73
wrpercival
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

For those that may not have yet seen it, I received the following email update today from Terry Burtz regarding the development progress of the new engine.

-------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

24 Sep 2019


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and Iíll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

Also see: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782 for additional information including many questions and answers.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.


A lot has happened since the last update on 19 August 2019.

John, who is responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance, has been in China for the past few weeks. In preparation for his trip, 30% 3D scale models of all cylinder block cores, main bearing caps, connecting rod, and the crankshaft were rapid prototyped (3D printed) in plastic.

The purpose of providing the 3D printed models was to help the engineers in China understand what we want them to produce. The factory in China has SolidWorks models of the cylinder block cores, main bearing caps, machined cylinder block, crankshaft, connecting rod along with an original cylinder block and the one good casting from Lodi Iron Works for reference.


Cylinder Block

John spent days presenting the new design to the engineers in China, and John and I were in Email contact daily where questions and suggestions were presented and resolved.

The engineers in China are familiar with current design (2019) engines, and this engine seems a bit strange to them. It's hard for them to imagine why anyone would want to build an engine from the 1920's and use 1970's (50-year-old) technology.

My SolidWorks machining model has oil passages that will allow the oil to flow in two different directions. One direction is designed as original to not use an oil filter, and the other uses an oil filter. This two direction design where the engine builder can choose which to use requires oil passages to be drilled at compound angles instead of vertical, horizontal, or a simple angle.

The engineers in China didn't initially quite understand the reason for the oil passage design. However, from the questions they asked and the suggestions they made, my feeling is that they are are very competent and detail-oriented.

There are many places where a design error could have occurred. My SolidWorks models have not been checked against the original Ford cylinder block drawing. Additionally, the engineers in China convert everything to metric. The end goal of John's meetings was to assist and ensure that the engineers in China understand the SolidWorks machining model which will enable them to get their CNC file correct.

For example, I did not complete the SolidWorks machining model to include threads for setscrews to plug the ends of oil passages and other minor details because I was unable to get good castings. These minor details generated many of the questions.

In the end, the only change that was made to the SolidWorks machining model was to change the oil feed to camshaft bearing #5, and this change was needed to make room for the main oil gallery plug at the rear of the cylinder block.

I have suggested that when the engineers in China get their CNC machining file complete, that they then machine the one good cylinder block from Lodi Iron Works.

Machining the "good" cylinder block can verify that their CNC file is correct. The interfaces of attached parts (head, oil pan, valve chamber cover, timing gear covers, valve train, oil pump, etc) can be compared between the original cylinder block and the machined cylinder block from Lodi Iron Works to verify agreement.

After CNC machining, the "good" casting, it should be cut apart to verify wall thickness for every machined feature.

This wall thickness verification can then be used to make changes if needed to the SolidWorks models of the cylinder block cores.


Clear as mud? There are many details to check and verify. Relaying these things in our updates can sometimes make it seem that way.



Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft


These parts are much simpler than the cylinder block and they will be made of malleable iron. The 1932 Ford V-8 crankshaft was cast malleable iron, and most modern engines use malleable iron crankshafts.

SolidWorks models have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China is to follow the SolidWorks models. These are simpler parts (compared to the cylinder block) and will be worked on when the cylinder block engineering is complete.

Dimensional and balancing tolerances are being specified to be equal or exceed the tolerances on the Ford drawings.


Next Update

We are hopeful that we will have the first machined samples available by late fall and will send updates including pictures as the project matures.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.


The 7 attached pictures were taken during the most recent meetings in China.
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:18 PM   #74
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Terry,
Thanks for excellent detail, pictures/diagrams and report !
There is an aluminum engine (Donovan D) that used to be available from Mrs Donovan in very small quanity, i.e....only 30 ever produced...via Mrs. Donovan. This D engine was VERY expensive, compared to what you envision your creation costs !
The exciting part of interest , to me at least, is that YOUR engine oiling scheme mirrors the oil system of the D !! Very sophisticated oiling , compared to the original A and B blks ! This oil system of yours should enable your engine to last forever....given proper maintenance.
Thanks for not giving up on your/our dream of making such engine !
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:30 AM   #75
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

FYI - Terry Burtz recently posted the following update on the Model A engine block development:

---------------------------------------------------


Hello to All,



26 November 2019




Updates



In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com



If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and Iíll do my best to resolve the issue.





New Engine



This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at: www.modelaengine.com



I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.



In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.



A lot has happened since the last update on 24 Sept 2019.



John, who is responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance, has been to China twice since the last update. Between flights on his last trip, I picked him up at SFO, and we spent several hours going over the design, physically seeing parts, and how the parts are assembled. John also took samples of the 3 studs used for new engine main bearing cap retention, and a A-6551, A-6550, and A-6561 distributor/oil pump gear and bushing assembly for the engineers in China to better understand the design and how parts fit together.



The cylinder block and main caps will be manufactured in one factory and the crankshaft and connecting rods will be manufactured in another factory. Both factories will be working together so that there are no conflicts.



Cylinder Block and Main Caps


The exterior of the cylinder block will be based on computer 3-dimensional models derived from CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) and Laser scanning of the original cylinder block that was sent to China.


The need for CMM and Laser scanning is because the Ford drawing of the cylinder block did not specify parting lines, draft, and many other details that were left to the discretion of the pattern makers.

For machining of the cylinder block, the engineers in China have made drawings that are based on my SolidWorks models that were derived from the Ford drawing.

Both the engineers in China and I have asked for minor changes to be made to the original SolidWorks design. We have worked through these changes, and are in agreement, so the design is "frozen" unless something unforeseen comes up.

The drawings that were created in China are dimensioned from an origin where 3 perpendicular planes intersect, and almost all machined dimensions are from these 3 planes. This dimensioning system is much easier to understand than the stacked dimensioning system used on the Ford drawing (A-6015).

My job, which I have just finished, was to verify that the drawings from China are correctly dimensioned. China works to the metric system, so all dimensions have been converted from inches to millimeters. We are on the 5th drawing revision, and I think that the drawings are good to proceed.

The first castings are scheduled to be completed by the middle of January 2020. John asked if it would be good to display the castings at the Turlock swap meet which is the last weekend of January 2020. My reply was no because the one good cylinder block casting from Lodi Iron Works was previously displayed by John LaVoy, the editor of Model A Times at Turlock for several years, and the new cylinder block from China should be identical.

Although the studs and nuts will have inch threads, they will be manufactured to metric Class 10.9 which is similar to SAE Grade 8 (150 KSI). The threads on the studs that fasten the main caps will be rolled which is stronger than cut threads.

The first two pictures attached show a SolidWorks assembly of the machined cylinder block along with main caps and crankshaft. The 3rd and 4th pictures are photos of the drawings from China that have been checked.


Crankshaft and Connecting Rods



John met with the crankshaft and connecting rod manufacturer to go over the design. John and I communicate almost daily when he is in China.

The factory in China typically rolls crankshaft journal fillets which is great because the material in the fillets is compacted by rolling which is a deterrent to fatigue cracks. They asked if we wanted rolled fillets and my reply was yes.

The factory also asked about balancing and I replied that we wanted the crankshaft dynamically balanced to 2 oz-in (1.41 Newton-cm) or less. The Ford Model A crankshafts were dynamically balanced to 3 oz-in according to Ford drawing A-6303.V-8 engines built during the muscle car era were typically balanced to 2 oz-in. New engines with higher RPM's are balanced even closer.

Another question asked was about hardening of journals and the rear main seal rubbing surface. My reply was that it would be good to have the hardness still intact if the journals were ground .030 inch undersize.

Several people have asked what bearing insert is being used. The answer is that all (main and rod) journals are 2-inch diameter and any of the following inserts can be used: Clevite CB-745 series, Federal Mogul 2020 series, King Bearing CR803 series, Sealed power 8-7065 series, and others. When I say series, several letters and numbers are used in the suffix depending on the material, radii, and undersize. We will be using a Clevite CB745P which is tri-metal and standard size.

Questions regarding what the rear seal have also been asked. The rear seal will be a radial lip seal with a steel housing. The new cylinder block and rear main cap will have a bore of 5-inch diameter, and the crankshaft will have the flywheel mounting flange (4-inch diameter) that is extended forward to provide a seal rubbing surface. The rear seal will be a SKF 39933, Timken 415035, or others with a 5 inch OD that seals on a 4-inch shaft.

SolidWorks models of the crankshaft and connecting rods have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China are to follow the SolidWorks models. 





Next Update

The latest schedule (subject to change) looks like we will have castings around the middle of January 2020, and machined parts in the middle of March 2020. The machined parts will need to be evaluated and tested before production begins.

There have been no changes that will have an effect on pricing. The pricing goal is to provide these parts a price that is competitive with the cost of machine work for a rebuild.

The next update will be after castings have been made which should occur in January 2020. These first castings will need to be cut apart or sonically tested to verify wall thickness before they are machined.

Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg assy, jpeg 1 for nov 2019.jpg (44.9 KB, 130 views)
File Type: jpg assy, jpeg 2 for nov 2019.jpg (35.1 KB, 114 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0161.jpg (57.1 KB, 114 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0162.jpg (53.1 KB, 96 views)
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:51 PM   #76
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Even though I don’t understand most of everything of what is written, it is very exciting to see this coming together. I know I will need at least one motor. Can’t wait. Thanks Terry.
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:19 PM   #77
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good luck on your engine project, I hope it works out.As a retired Tool and die maker can appreciate the amount of 3 d modeling and research that had to be done just for the project.Gary
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Old 12-10-2019, 09:14 PM   #78
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The U.S. has engaged in world trade since it's inception. We do not have to make everything in the U.S. for it's consumption. The leaders and businessmen need to provide something that the other countries need in order to have equal trade. Economic is complex and frequently involves several countries buying and selling to each other. If this is done with minimal greed and corruption, it will work. The U.S. was moving in that direction until the farmers got screwed with the agricultural trade with China.
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Old 12-11-2019, 02:18 PM   #79
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I see interesting things with 3D printed metal.
Laser melted powder method versus bound particles.

Might be possible to print them with the latest larger printers soon.

Right now, laser melted aluminium powder costs $800 per pound of finished product though.
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Old 01-02-2020, 09:48 PM   #80
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks to everyone interested in this project which should result in a new Model A Ford engine that looks totally stock on the exterior, but has 1970's technology on the interior. Interest in this project has generated lots of questions that I have answered by Email. What follows is a few of the more interesting questions followed by my answers. The questions and comments are in italics and unedited with the exception that I removed names.



Thanks Terry for the update. The new block sounds good and I am looking forward to getting it. I can handle the rest.

My ďAĒ was built in June of 29. Even though the engine is original to the car as I knew both the original owner and the owner who sold me the car so I know it was not changed. The engine was made in October of 28. I would have to look at the stamp again to know it build location as I have forgotten. These blocks had a casting problem that deflected the water flow just a tiny bit. This was corrected in the later 29 blocks. Both the 28 and 29 castings had a high nickel content to rectify some of the heating problems and the shorter radiator. One of the solutions is to grind down the casting at the water inlet and this has helped about 50% of those I know of. Ford changed the water jacket casting in the middle to late 29 and increased the radiator height and installed a standard 3 row in the cars and 4 row in the trucks. The great race is generally run with the late 29 engine because the higher nickel content provides higher cooling and the block holds up better in general. I have a Brass Works 11 fins per inch and am pressurized. Not a perfect solution but getting me by until I change engines or try to trim the molding to recommended specs.

As you block is built to the later drawings, it will work great and I donít expect any heating problems. I was going to build up another block but decided to wait for yours as it fixes everything and more. Thank you for doing this. For those of us that truly love the Model A, it is a real God Send.



Ford's design for cooling water is not very good. Cool water should enter the cylinder block between cylinders 3 and 4 instead of 2 and 3. The water pump should be located low so that it pushes cool water into the cylinder block instead of sucking hot water out at the end of the head. The water jacket should extend lower to the bottom of the cylinders. An even better cooling path would be to supply cool water near cylinders 1 and 4 and have hot water flow from the head between cylinders 2 and 3.

Since any of the above changes would alter the external appearance, they are not part of the "new engine" design.

During Model A production, Ford changed the deflector just inside the cool water entrance on the side of the cylinder block, and the "new engine" has the latest design deflector.



Wow, you just blow me away with your tenacity and perfection for design. Thank you.

I need a new engine for my 29 Tudor which I have tolerated the slow overheating problems inherent from when the car was new I am sure. It is a great and reliable engine with some TLC I have driven it for 40 K miles. I am waiting for your engine as I was convinced when I talked to you in San Diego a few years ago this was the right way to go. I am so excited about your work.

Everything is what I could hope for and more. Let us know when you need an order Ė I am ready. Can this be a short or full block? Donít have to answer; just something to think about as a full block replacement would be good for me as at my age, I can change engines, but no longer have space or tools to do much rebuilding. I am ready either way. I have a ďBĒ head, but has been resurfaced more than once I am sure. If the pistons are flat with the top it will work. The head has developed a crack, but does not interfere with anything or performance at this time. This is the reason I asked about the head. Will you have a recommended head or build one as well? I know this will be answered as well after the engine is tested and you can see what works best. So many great possibilities. Canít wait to go touring with this engine. A drive is 100 to 200 miles. A tour for me is generally 400 to 800 miles. My engine is also inserted and I can drive 60 mph or slightly higher for a very short distance to handle traffic entering a freeway. I normally drive between 50 and 53 as that is my sweet spot. Even so, in warm weather it slowly heats so I have to drop to 40 or 45 to allow it to cool. My engine water baffling is the problem. I had it scoped and it is clear of any debris and the walls are clean. My car is original, so I still have an original front end and it is not designed for high speeds. More than you want to know. Your engine will solve all my problems. Thanks again.



The "new engine" consists of a cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods. All small hardware (dowel pins, studs, nuts, thrust washers, connecting rod bolts, and woodruff key) is included. Cam bushings will be installed in the cylinder block, and the small end of the connecting rods will have bushings installed.

To make a short block, you will need to supply a camshaft, lifters, valves, valve guides, timing gears, oil pump and oil pump/distributor drive gear, pistons, rings, and bearing inserts. Since there are several varieties of the above-mentioned parts, you or your engine builder can build exactly what you want. All interfaces where parts attach are identical to stock so everything will fit.

The "new engine" cylinder block will be machined to the Ford drawing (A-6015) that has the pistons protruding .032 inches above the top of the cylinder block. If your head has been surfaced numerous times, the recess in the head may need to be machined deeper.



I have been following the progress of the new motor for a few years now and Iím very excited, great work! I canít seem to find a previous discussion about the weight of the new motor with the new crankshaft and other parts. You expect it to be a heavier motor than the original, correct? By how much roughly?


Thanks for your question and interest in this project.

The new engine parts will be heavier than the weight of the original Model A engine parts.

Regarding the cylinder block, I thickened the left side water jacket wall by 1/32 inch to make it more resistant to freeze cracking, added material between the exhaust ports and cylinders to make that area less prone to cracking, added 2 intermediate webs to support the 5 main crankshaft, added bosses for the main oil galley and all feeds to main and camshaft bearings, added material to the rear main area to accommodate the larger 2-inch diameter bearing, and made all 5 main bearing caps larger because the bearings are larger and to make them stronger. I will guess that the new cylinder block and main bearing caps will be close to weigh around 20 pounds heavier than an original cylinder block with main caps. All of these changes will not be visible from the exterior.

The new engine 5 main crankshaft with 8 counterweights, larger bearings, and extended flywheel mounting flange for the rear main seal will weigh just over 60 pounds. This weight is close to the weight of 4 cylinder racing engine crankshafts with similar displacement engines that raced in the 30's, 40's, and 50's.

The connecting rods are also heavier for strength and to accommodate the 2-inch diameter big end bearing, and they will weigh about 1.7 pounds each.



Thanks for the update.
Two questions is the new engine going to have a full pressurized oil system and is proposed to have larger intake valves?



Yes, pressurized oil is supplied to an oil galley that runs the full length of the cylinder block.

From this galley, oil is fed to the main and camshaft bearings.

The crankshaft is drilled, and oil will be fed from the main bearings to the connecting rod bearings.

Intake valve ports are stock and can be enlarged by the engine builder if desired. Intake ports are streamlined for better flow.



I'm liking it Terry! Make sure the block has enough material for the main brg. studs won't pull out, I've seen that happen on Model B racing engines when std. length studs were substituted for the stock bolts. The result is disaster!


All studs and nuts will be the equivalent of Grade 8 hardware.

Stud threads will be rolled (cold-formed) instead of cut for better finish and grain direction.

Main bearings 2 and 4 will use 7/16 dia. studs that are UNC and UNF. The UNC end will engage the cylinder block by just over 2 diameters (7/8 inch).

Main bearing 5 (rear main) will be retained with 1/2 inch dia studs, and again engagement into the cylinder block is just over 2 diameters (1 inch).

Main bearings 1 and 3 (front and center) will have studs that are 1/2 UNF at the top (like original for castellated nut) and reduced to 7/16 inch dia. before the cylinder block/main bearing cap interface.

To summarize, 8, 7/16 - 20 UNF 12 pt nuts (McMaster Carr 90759A450) and 2, 1/2 - 20 UNF 12 pt nuts (McMaster Carr 90759A550) are used to retain the main bearing caps. All threads are Class 3.



Hi Terry, Having played with A engines and their head gaskets. ( I used to make commercial annealed copper head gaskets in various thicknesses) Have you thought about having the block 'figure of eight' machined for round copper wire inserts into the block. No more gasket problems! Looks like the project is proceeding smoothly.


Yes, I have given it thought. In fact, I have a HAL DOHC engine that is 5 main and based on a Model A cylinder block. With DOHC, it has a circular groove for wire around the cylinders. No head gasket is used because the water passages are sealed with Permatex #2.

I consider a wire groove something that a performance engine builder would add because the groove configuration would be different for an L head, F head, or DOHC.

The "new" engine will have all stock interfaces with no groove.

Thanks for the question.



Hello Terry

Iím pleased to see that the engine project is still underway.

Early 1928 Model A camshafts had 5 bearings, while later Model A camshafts had 3. Will your 5-main engine use 3 or 5 bearing camshafts?



The new cylinder block will have 5 camshaft bearings with bushings.

The #1, #3, and #5 camshaft bushings will have holes in them for pressure lube from the main oil galley.

A 3 or 5 bearing camshaft can be used.

Camshaft bushings #2 and #4 will not have oil holes and the bushings will block off the oil passages.

If a 5 bearing camshaft is used, the engine builder will drill holes in camshaft bushings #2 and #4 to open the passages for oil pressure.



Hi Terry
It is encouraging to hear about the great progress you are making on the new engine. You did a little seminar for me at our CCRG Jamboree here in Visalia several years ago but a lot of things have happened since then.
I know it is kinda far in the future to plan anything ... especially for us older folks ... but Visalia is going to have the central California Jamboree again in April 9 - 10 in 2021 and would love to have you do a show and tell about your new engine. You might even be in production of he engines by then and have engines running and taking orders. I sure hope so since several people in our chapter who are very interested in your progress and are even looking for a good engine. I have re-built several engines with inserts etc. but they don't have the advanced technology and dependability you are incorporating in your new engines.
Let me know if this is something you would be interested in putting on your calendar and we can also plan for our agenda. As before we will be happy to provide you with a room and meals for the event.



Thank you for the invitation.
I would love to do a presentation at the next Jamboree, however, I am hesitant to commit at this time because I don't know if I'll have parts to display.
We expect to have castings towards the end of January 2020, and machined parts in the middle of March 2020.
If the schedule holds, yes, I will be there.
We need to talk again at the end of Jan 2020 when I will have a better idea of the hardware schedule.



Hi Terry,
Great work and thank you for what you are doing.
Will one be able to use sae size bolts ( I. e. Oil pan ) on the new block?



Although all hole locations are dimensioned in millimeters, the threads will be UNC or UNF depending on location.

Some threads like the oil pan attachment bolts will be Class 2 (looser fit), and some like the flywheel attachment bolts will be Class 3 (tighter fit).

To make a long story short, no metric threads are used and any fastener used in an original Model A engine will work with the new engine.
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:59 AM   #81
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

to those questioning Chinas ability............


complete BMW motorcycles have been made there for some time for the Germans


I am sure they have no interest in throwing their high quality business model away.


the chinese can make poor quality or great quality- all depends what you want to pay.
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Old 01-05-2020, 11:29 AM   #82
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

When Henry Ford and investors started to produce cars back in 1903/04 with the first model A, They were at the mercy of foundries to produce their castings. When the moved to the Piquette Avenue plant, they set up a small foundry to do the little parts (mostly the brass stuff). They got into hock with the Dodge Brothers to fabricate a lot of their parts that ended up in making them shareholders in Ford Motor Co. They had a lot of quality control problems with the Dodge Brothers and others. When Ford had the new Highland Park plant built, they finally had their own foundry to cast stuff for themselves. They still didn't make everything but they were getting closer as time went by.

The point is that casting projects that turn into a manufacturing businesses generally always have to end up with their own foundry in order to control things the way they want them to be.

I hope that folks that enter complex projects like this are successful. It's a monumental task to get to an end product that will be reliable in function and longevity and pay off for the folks involved. May the new year bring good fortunes to all that make this and similar efforts. We have to keep the old Fords on the road somehow.
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:13 PM   #83
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Amen
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Old 01-06-2020, 02:35 AM   #84
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Yes, gong xi fa cai, May it be a good one.
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Old 01-06-2020, 05:54 PM   #85
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
Yes, gong xi fa cai, May it be a good one.


Gong Show??? The Unknown Comic??

I don't know what this is.
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Old 01-07-2020, 12:44 PM   #86
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It’s “Happy New Year” in Chinese.
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Old 01-26-2020, 10:56 AM   #87
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry Burtz recently posted a progress update on the Model A block project. Following is a copy of his post:

----------------------------------------------------

To All,

Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and Iíll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at www.modelaengine.com

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 26 Nov 2019.

As mentioned before, the cylinder block and main caps will be manufactured in one factory and the crankshaft and connecting rods will be manufactured in another factory. Both factories will be working together so that there are no conflicts.


Cylinder Block and Main Caps

SolidWorks models of all internal cores, main bearing caps, machined surfaces, an original cylinder block, and the one good cylinder block from Lodi Iron Works were provided to the factory in China and the instructions were to follow the machined model exactly, revise the internal cores if needed and to use a laser scan of the original cylinder block for the exterior.

The machined surfaces drawing made from my SolidWorks file is close to being acceptable. One more iteration is needed because their fore and aft tooling holes need to be moved inward.

During December, I asked to review and markup the 3-D model of the exterior cylinder block created by the engineers in the factory we are using. Unfortunately, many small details did not look right, and it became obvious that the factory was attempting to model the cylinder block exterior using 3-D drawing instead of laser scanning. The previous update (26 Nov 2019) addressed the need for laser scanning to capture every minute detail.

To confirm this, John had a friend overlay the raw laser-scanned cylinder block on the drawn 3-D cylinder block from the factory. It was clear that more refinement was needed to match the exterior surfaces of the new cylinder block to the original casting.

Fortunately, John understands these differences and the problem. He is currently working on another project that requires having a complex sheet metal assembly laser scanned in preparation for manufacture in China.

To get the exterior of the new cylinder block correct, John has contracted with CAM Logic Inc located in Oxford, MI to clean up the laser-scanned file of the original cylinder block. This cleaned up file will then be used to create the exterior pattern for the new block. The first 2 figures show the laser-scanned cylinder block. The next 2 figures are of a model from CAM Logic that will be used to create the pattern.

CAM Logic will also combine the core assembly with the laser-scanned model to verify exterior wall thickness.

It is Chinese New Year right now so factories throughout the country are shut down until mid-February. After the holiday, John will meet with the factory and work with them to have the models from CAM Logic integrated into the design.

Unfortunately, the timing of these design changes along with the Chinese New Year is going to delay us at least 2 months. John will have a better idea of schedule after his return from China in late February.


Crankshaft and Connecting Rods

SolidWorks models of the crankshaft and connecting rods have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China are to follow the SolidWorks models.

The machined crankshaft drawing with dimensions and tolerances is shown in the fifth figure. The drawing looks good.

Rolled fillets, balancing, hardening, bearing inserts, and the rear main seal was discussed in the previous update (26 Nov 2019).

The crankshaft factory asked and was granted permission to have the connecting rods forged from steel instead of cast from malleable iron. We agreed as long as there would not be any increase in price. Preliminary drawings of the connecting rod have been marked up and returned to China.


Next Update and Other Comments

There have been no changes that will have an effect on pricing. The pricing goal is to provide these parts at a price that is competitive with the cost of machine work for the rebuild of a stock Model A engine.

Regarding the schedule delay, please be patient and understand that hiccups can happen in any project. We have high standards and insist on quality even if it means a schedule delay.

Our goal is to provide the parts that will allow an engine builder to provide a much better product that looks identical to stock on the exterior.

The next update will be in about 2 months.

Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Laser Scan 1.jpg (103.3 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg Laser Scan 2.jpg (108.5 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg File for Pattern 1.jpg (19.9 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg File for Pattern 2.jpg (22.7 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0180-Edit.jpg (466.0 KB, 67 views)
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Old 01-26-2020, 11:13 AM   #88
Ernie Vitucci
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Very encouraging work Terry. Many of us are pulling for you!
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:50 PM   #89
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I see the forged rods as a major plus. Congratulations on all the effort put into this product.
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Old 01-26-2020, 02:09 PM   #90
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

How did China become an economic powerhouse when they shut down factory production for a month for New Year's Day? Oh wait, could it be currency manipulation and other unfair business practices? Terry, what kind of tariffs are you going to have to pay to import the blocks from China?
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:23 AM   #91
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What's the latest update? Any prototype blocks being machined yet ?
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Old 03-11-2020, 07:50 AM   #92
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

How is the Corona virus going to effect your production.
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Old 03-11-2020, 02:45 PM   #93
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

In Terry’s update in January, he wrote:

“It is Chinese New Year right now so factories throughout the country are shut down until mid-February. After the holiday, John will meet with the factory and work with them to have the models from CAM Logic integrated into the design.”

If John went to China in January as planned, I hope he is back and ok.

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Old 03-15-2020, 09:19 PM   #94
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I want to thank everyone that is interested in the new engine parts (Cylinder Block with Caps, Connecting Rods, and Crankshaft). The next update (progress report) will be sent in early April 2020 or shortly thereafter. I want to include photographs of actual hardware in the next update. Below are some of the more interesting questions and comments with replies since the last update in January 2020.


Mr. Burtz

Reference:

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-02.jpg

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-06.jpg

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-08.jpg

I'm building a nearly exact replica of this 1930s aircraft. I
plan on using your engine block assembly as a basis for my
engine. Every component chosen for long term reliability. I
watch your project's progress with great interest. Very exciting.

I'm modeling the entire aircraft in 3D CAD. I have cylinder head,
oil pan, carburetor, etc to model, but no engine block. It would be
a great help if I had an EXTERNAL CAD model of the engine block as
you will be producing it. I don't need any internal details, just the
external casting with all the external machining processes, so I can
mount the oil pan and cylinder head models. Also the exposed end of
the crankshaft so I can mount the propeller hub model and propeller
model.

I will not share this information with anyone. It is only for my own
design/research purposes.

I can use STP files.

Would you share an external CAD model of your engine block?

Thanks and best regards,
Craig


Craig,

Thanks for your interest in the new engine project.

I don't have a model of the exterior.

I modeled the internal cores and machining from Ford drawing A-6015 using SolidWorks 2004, 13 years ago. For the exterior, drawing A-6015 specifies "All walls & fillets to be 5/32 unless otherwise specified"

The exterior of the original cylinder block was sculpted by the pattern makers at Ford and was dimensionally undocumented.

I cut an original cylinder block into 20 pieces and enlarged those 20 pieces 3-dimensionally to create a pattern. This pattern was used for all efforts at Lodi Iron Works until the project stalled in 2015, and the resulting cylinder blocks looked identical to the original.

For the current effort in China, an original cylinder block was laser scanned to create the exterior model using software that is far beyond SolidWorks 2004. I don't have a model of the exterior, and even if I did, I would not be able to open it.

For what you are doing, I would simply measure an original cylinder block and create a model from that. Our efforts are to create an exact model, whereas your efforts are just to get something close.

Are you planning to attach the propeller to the flywheel mounting flange of the crankshaft? If so, this is a very bad idea because it will continuously overload the forward thrust bearing, and it puts bending and radial loads into the rear main bearing that will cause a fatigue failure.

A much better design would be to support the propeller similar to how the pinion is supported in a Model A differential only larger. That is to have the propeller shaft supported with a pair of back to back tapered roller bearings of at least 5-inch diameter, and have the propeller shaft connected to the flywheel mounting flange with a universal joint and splined shaft coupling. Thrust, bending, and radial loads will be supported by the pair of 5-inch diameter tapered roller bearings instead of the 2-inch crankshaft bearing. Clear as mud?

Terry Burtz



Hi Terry,

I am in the Model A hobby (MARC & MAFCA) and someone recently sent me the description of your project to modernize the Model A engine. Iím probably more biased toward originality, but I am impressed by the level of detail you have gone into with your project.

Iíve been an engineer for about 23 years, including about 11 years at an engine OEM which is a subsidiary of CAT. I did a lot of work with their foundry in Mapleton, IL and sometimes had small run prototype castings made from tooling that was 3D printed on an ExOne sand printer. It could print molds and cores up to the size of an office desk and the quality was very impressive. A couple of years ago, I was thinking of starting a side business reproducing rare antique car parts. I found a few casting houses that will make low production and prototype castings with no hard tooling using this type of 3D sand printer. I seem to remember a couple of houses in Wisconsin. I thought you might be interested in this information.

Russell


Russell,

Thanks for your comments and information. I added your Email address to the update list, so you should receive future updates by Email.

Regarding originality, our goal is to provide a product that looks original on the outside but has more modern technology on the inside.

When I was looking for a foundry in 2008 at the beginning of this project, I found a research foundry at the repurposed McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento, CA that was using one of the mold printing machines.

The machine could print the cope, drag, all cores, sprues, gates, risers, and everything all at once. There was no need for core boxes or patterns, and complex castings with reverse draft were possible. Core shift was impossible. There were 2 problems, 1) Cost would be $2300 per casting, and 2) I did not have a digital model of the exterior of the cylinder block.

Terry Burtz



Dear Terry,

I wrote you earlier concerning the Model A engine project.

As i wrote you before we rebuilding al lot of Ford model A , B And G28T engines and i am very interesting in Offering your new redesigned engines in Europe.

Hopefully we can discuss the opportunities to set up the distribution line direct from China to Europe.

In case of maching the block we have programmed the Ford Model A engine block on our Haas CNC machine.

We are going to several meetings and Markets in Germany,Scandinavie, Holland,Belgium and the UK

On this moment we supply customers with rebuilded engines across Europe.

Hans




Hans,

Thank you for your interest in this project.

We would be happy to work with you and have you be the distributor in Europe.

We need to have a proven product before we release it for sale.

I am replying BCC to Leonard who is a team member that will be responsible for distribution.

Terry Burtz




Hi Terry

I'm Dave, Visalia CA. we talked late last year about your progress on the engine and the possibility of you doing a program at our Central Calif. Regional Workshop in April 10 2020. You wanted me to contact you again after January to give you some time to evaluate your progress on the engine. I can only hope that the Coronavirus in China has not caused your project any serious problems.

Could you let me know as soon as you can since we are beginning to put together the agenda and make arrangements for our Model A Jamboree.


Dave,

Thanks for asking me to make a presentation at the 2020 Regional Workshop at the Jamboree in Visalia.

When I made the previous presentation in Visalia, I used a PowerPoint presentation and was able to display the new cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods from Lodi Iron Works.

The basic design of the new engine has not changed, so there is nothing new regarding design details.

The cylinder block from Lodi Iron Works that I displayed is now in China.

We've had 2 setbacks that have affected the schedule. One is where the engineers in China did not make a lot of progress when they attempted to model the exterior of the cylinder block, and the other is the general slowdown due to the coronavirus.

Modeling of the cylinder block exterior based on laser scanning was completed by CamLogic and given to the engineers in China, and the coronavirus has not completely shut down progress in China.

Our team member, John Lampl has not been able to physically travel to China, however, he sends and receives Emails regularly from China.

I feel honored with your invitation, but need to decline because we won't have new hardware to display.

Terry Burtz



How did China become an economic powerhouse when they shut down factory production for a month for New Year's Day? Oh wait, could it be currency manipulation and other unfair business practices? Terry, what kind of tariffs are you going to have to pay to import the blocks from China?

Unlike America, New Years Day is a huge celebration in China that is long. Look at https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays...pring-festival, and you will see that it is a 23-day event. Tariffs, production cost, tooling cost, transportation cost, storage cost, and other factors have been accounted for. The goal of providing the new engine parts (Cylinder Block with Caps, Connecting Rods, and Crankshaft) at the price of a rebuild (around $3500) has not changed.





What's the latest update? Any prototype blocks being machined yet ?

The latest update will be sent when I have some photographs to show. I expect to have photographs in early April 2020. We don't expect to have hardware for a couple of months. The current effort is tooling production.





How is the Corona virus going to effect your production.

I spoke with John about this, and he feels that it will have a minimal effect compared to manufacturing industries in China that are labor-intensive.





In Terryís update in January, he wrote:

ďIt is Chinese New Year right now so factories throughout the country are shut down until mid-February. After the holiday, John will meet with the factory and work with them to have the models from CAM Logic integrated into the design.Ē

If John went to China in January as planned, I hope he is back and ok.



David

John did not go to China because of the Coronavirus. The model from CAM Logic was sent and the pattern makers are using it. Earlier this week, I received a connecting rod print that I have to dimensionally check. John is in Email contact with the factories in China on a regular basis.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:31 PM   #95
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Everyone - the following update was posted by Terry Burtz yesterday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

26 March 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com, and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing costs and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at www.modelaengine.com

FordBarn, (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782) is an internet social group for Model A Ford hobbyists, and there are a lot of interesting questions and comments regarding this project.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 25 January 2020.


Cylinder Block and Main Caps

CAM Logic Inc completed its work to digitally model the exterior of the cylinder block based on the laser scan.

John had planned to travel to China to present the CAM Logic Inc exterior model in mid-February but was unable to due to the Coronavirus outbreak. However, in the interim, John has been working with the factory in China remotely to move the project forward.

The data file from CAM Logic Inc was sent to China and is being used to make the exterior pattern.

We also asked CAM Logic to confirm that all wall thicknesses were 5/32 inch or greater per Ford drawing A-6015, and they found that when the SolidWorks core models were combined with their exterior model, the wall at the front of the valve chamber was found to be thin.

This was corrected by making the valve chamber core slightly smaller to add wall thickness, and this file was also sent to China.

The machined surfaces drawing made from my SolidWorks file is close to being acceptable. One more iteration is needed because their fore and aft tooling holes on the bottom of the cylinder block need to be moved inward.

Cylinder block foundry tooling is nearing completion. The factory in China has provided a schedule projecting completion on 18 April 2020.

All tooling (core boxes, and the cope and drag patterns) is being CNC machined to the SolidWorks core and exterior models that have been provided by us. Everything that is external to the cylinder block casting including sprues, core-prints, gates, runners, and vents were designed by the factory in China.

The factory in China is in the business of making cylinder blocks in volume, so the tooling has been designed for use on their automated tooling line that can mass-produce cores and molds that are precise and consistent.

The 15 attached figures show what some of the tooling will look like. The first two figures show cope and drag patterns that are ready for automated molding, and the other figures show various stages of tooling completion. All tooling will be machined from aluminum.

It is my belief that the only "hands-on" operations will be core setting, mold closure, and pouring.

Once a good casting is poured, it needs to be verified through a series of comparisons, measurements, and tests including:
  • Compare the casting exterior against an original cylinder block. Superimposing laser scans of the new and original cylinder blocks would be ideal.
  • Compare roughness and texture of surfaces.
  • Pressurize the water jacket with air while the cylinder block is submerged in water to check for porosity.
  • Cut a casting apart into many pieces to verify all wall thickness and that there is no porosity.

We cannot dictate the process for verification; however, we can ask questions like: "How are you going to verify that the exterior is identical to original? How are you going to verify that there is no porosity?, and How are you going to verify wall thickness?"

John is in contact with the factories in China about two times every week, and I talk with or Email John every few days. Unfortunately, because of the Coronavirus, John will not be able to travel to China and witness the verification process.

The Coronavirus, along with the engineers not initially using the laser scan, has slightly slowed progress in China. If foundry tooling is complete by 18 April 2020 and they produce a good casting on the first try, it is possible that a machined casting may be available in May 2020, assuming that there are no CNC errors.


Crankshaft and Connecting Rods

SolidWorks models of the crankshaft and connecting rods have been provided, and the instructions to the factory in China are to follow the SolidWorks models.

The machined crankshaft drawing with dimensions and tolerances looks good.

Rolled fillets, balancing, hardening, bearing inserts, and the rear main seal was discussed in a previous update (26 November 2019).

The crankshaft factory asked and was granted permission to have the connecting rods forged from steel instead of being cast from malleable iron. We agreed as long as there would not be any increase in price. Preliminary drawings of the connecting rod have been marked up and returned to China.


Next Update and Other Comments

There have been no changes that will affect pricing. The pricing goal is to provide these parts at a price that is competitive with the cost of machine work for the rebuild of a stock Model A engine.

Before authorizing production, we have asked for three sets of hardware that we can inspect and evaluate by building running engines. Although John cannot fly to China to meet with his contacts at the factory, freight is still actively moving.

In preparation for the next update (end of April 2020?), we have asked for photographs that show the finished foundry tooling and the first casting.

Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg March 1.JPG (44.3 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg March 2.JPG (43.6 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg March 3.JPG (84.1 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg March 4.jpg (52.0 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg March 5.jpg (51.2 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg March 6.jpg (66.4 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg March 7.jpg (47.2 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg March 8.jpg (37.6 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg March 9.jpg (46.2 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg March 10.jpg (44.5 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg March 11.jpg (56.3 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg March 12.jpg (26.5 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg March 13.jpg (32.2 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg March 14.jpg (36.7 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg March 15.jpg (29.9 KB, 56 views)

Last edited by wrpercival; 03-28-2020 at 08:25 AM. Reason: upload additional images
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Old 05-25-2020, 06:26 PM   #96
wrpercival
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Posts: 8
Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I recently received the following email update on the engine project from Terry Burtz.

There are several videos that were included in his email that cannot be uploaded to this site. As an alternative, I have posted Dropbox links to the referenced videos at the end of the update.
---------------------------------

Hello to All,

21 May 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com. If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and Iíll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at www.modelaengine.com

FordBarn, (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782) is an internet social group for Model A Ford hobbyists and there are a lot of interesting questions and comments regarding this project.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 26 March 2020.



Cylinder Block and Main Caps


Due to Covid19, John was unable to travel to China and present the exterior model of the cylinder block that was completed by CAM logic from a laser scan. This was resolved by sending the data over the internet.

The foundry tooling (patterns and core boxes) have been delivered to the casting and machining factory.

3 cylinder blocks have been cast. The first had a miss-run problem but was useful to confirm feature location and wall thickness. The second and third cylinder block castings appear good and are shown in the following figures.

For quality control purposes, every cylinder block that passes final inspection will have a unique hidden serial number in the location shown in the attachments.

John is in contact with the factories in China about 2 times every week, and I talk with or Email John every few days.


Crankshaft

Crankshafts for engineering evaluation have been cast, rough-machined, and they are having their journals hardened in preparation for grinding.

The video attachments show the rough machining prior to heat treat.

Rolled fillets, balancing, hardening, bearing inserts, and the rear main seal was discussed in a previous update (26 Nov 2019).


Connecting Rods

In the attachments, there is a picture of big end forgings and a short video that shows the partially machined cap. The video is short, so don't blink while watching.


Design Verification

We have been in contact with an engine rebuilder and parts supplier that has agreed to help verify the design by assembling a short block with parts that we supply, and then assemble a complete engine with mostly used parts that he supplies.

We are planning to have the new engine parts air-shipped from China to an airport near his business and we are excited to see what arrives. This will be our first opportunity to visually see the new engine parts.

The new engine parts will be cosmetically compared to original parts, and dimensionally measured to confirm that all interfaces are a match to Ford drawings for attaching parts. Any discrepancies found will be documented so they can be corrected before the production run.

After assembly of the new engine, it will be run on a test stand at a high RPM for a length of time, and then installed in a car that will be driven in hill climbs at WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Next, the engine will be plumbed to utilize an oil filter and again run on the test stand. After all testing, the engine will be disassembled and all moving parts will be inspected for wear. If we agree that the design is valid, we will authorize production.


Next Update and Other Comments

There have been no changes that will have an effect on pricing. The pricing goal is to provide these parts at a price that is competitive with the cost of machine work for the rebuild of a stock Model A engine.

We expect to have engineering evaluation parts delivered by July 5, 2020.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.


Dropbox links to the video files:

Connecting Rod Machining.mp4

MACHINING OF CRANKSHAFT 1.mp4

MACHINING OF CRANKSHAFT 2.mp4
Attached Images
File Type: jpg May 1.jpg (41.8 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg May 2.jpg (60.4 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg Con Rod Forging.jpg (14.0 KB, 91 views)
File Type: jpg thumbnail_Serial No Location.jpg (64.2 KB, 59 views)
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:59 PM   #97
40 Deluxe
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
I want to thank everyone that is interested in the new engine parts (Cylinder Block with Caps, Connecting Rods, and Crankshaft). The next update (progress report) will be sent in early April 2020 or shortly thereafter. I want to include photographs of actual hardware in the next update. Below are some of the more interesting questions and comments with replies since the last update in January 2020.


Mr. Burtz

Reference:

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-02.jpg

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-06.jpg

http://www.aircraftrecreator.com/fil.../N13691-08.jpg

I'm building a nearly exact replica of this 1930s aircraft. I
plan on using your engine block assembly as a basis for my
engine. Every component chosen for long term reliability. I
watch your project's progress with great interest. Very exciting.

I'm modeling the entire aircraft in 3D CAD. I have cylinder head,
oil pan, carburetor, etc to model, but no engine block. It would be
a great help if I had an EXTERNAL CAD model of the engine block as
you will be producing it. I don't need any internal details, just the
external casting with all the external machining processes, so I can
mount the oil pan and cylinder head models. Also the exposed end of
the crankshaft so I can mount the propeller hub model and propeller
model.

I will not share this information with anyone. It is only for my own
design/research purposes.

I can use STP files.

Would you share an external CAD model of your engine block?

Thanks and best regards,
Craig


Craig,

Thanks for your interest in the new engine project.

I don't have a model of the exterior.

I modeled the internal cores and machining from Ford drawing A-6015 using SolidWorks 2004, 13 years ago. For the exterior, drawing A-6015 specifies "All walls & fillets to be 5/32 unless otherwise specified"

The exterior of the original cylinder block was sculpted by the pattern makers at Ford and was dimensionally undocumented.

I cut an original cylinder block into 20 pieces and enlarged those 20 pieces 3-dimensionally to create a pattern. This pattern was used for all efforts at Lodi Iron Works until the project stalled in 2015, and the resulting cylinder blocks looked identical to the original.

For the current effort in China, an original cylinder block was laser scanned to create the exterior model using software that is far beyond SolidWorks 2004. I don't have a model of the exterior, and even if I did, I would not be able to open it.

For what you are doing, I would simply measure an original cylinder block and create a model from that. Our efforts are to create an exact model, whereas your efforts are just to get something close.

Are you planning to attach the propeller to the flywheel mounting flange of the crankshaft? If so, this is a very bad idea because it will continuously overload the forward thrust bearing, and it puts bending and radial loads into the rear main bearing that will cause a fatigue failure.

A much better design would be to support the propeller similar to how the pinion is supported in a Model A differential only larger. That is to have the propeller shaft supported with a pair of back to back tapered roller bearings of at least 5-inch diameter, and have the propeller shaft connected to the flywheel mounting flange with a universal joint and splined shaft coupling. Thrust, bending, and radial loads will be supported by the pair of 5-inch diameter tapered roller bearings instead of the 2-inch crankshaft bearing. Clear as mud?

Terry Burtz

Terry,
Interesting comments on attaching the prop directly to the crankshaft! Some years ago I ran across an article from the 1930's that quoted Mr. Pietenpol as saying it was fine to mount the prop directly to the crank as the stock Model A thrust was strong enough to handle the load! And, since this was in the depression years he suggested getting an engine from a junkyard. (Maybe he wanted to keep the price down so he could sell more plans?) In addition, somebody posted drawings (from a different source, same era) here on Fordbarn of a special bellhousing with tapered roller thrust bearings and a short shaft with square cut keys connecting to the crankshaft hub. Also included was a drawing for drilling the crankshaft for pressure oiling to the rods.

I wonder what the expected crankshaft life was in either case!
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:07 PM   #98
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

40 Delux

Pietenpol's were all homebuilt and likely used a 2 blade homemade propeller. What is scary is that one blade likely grabbed more air than the other blade which resulted in high bending loads on the 1.625-inch diameter main bearing.

Early Funk airplanes used a dry-sump inverted Model B Ford engine and these airplanes were factory-built and benefited from the larger 2-inch main bearing. The propellers on Funks likely had less miss-match between the 2 blades.
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:40 PM   #99
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40 Delux

Pietenpol's were all homebuilt and likely used a 2 blade homemade propeller. What is scary is that one blade likely grabbed more air than the other blade which resulted in high bending loads on the 1.625-inch diameter main bearing.

Early Funk airplanes used a dry-sump inverted Model B Ford engine and these airplanes were factory-built and benefited from the larger 2-inch main bearing. The propellers on Funks likely had less miss-match between the 2 blades.

Thanks, Terry. The question remains, however: How long did the original thrust surface last, what with having to pull the airplane through the sky?
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:42 PM   #100
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to those questioning Chinas ability............


complete BMW motorcycles have been made there for some time for the Germans


I am sure they have no interest in throwing their high quality business model away.


the chinese can make poor quality or great quality- all depends what you want to pay.
I just read recently where Scat crankshafts are made in China then shipped to Redondo Beach, Calif. for machining and sales. Scat cranks are pretty top of the line, good units.
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Old 05-30-2020, 01:52 AM   #101
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If I recall correctly, when I spoke with Tom, the owner of Scat some years ago, the forgings were made in India and shipped to California for machining. The forging is generic and can be machined to become a Chevy crankshaft, Model A crankshaft, or Model B crankshaft. There is not enough material on the forging to accommodate the Model B connecting rod diameter, so Model B crankshafts have Model A (1.50-inch diameter) connecting rod journals.
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:49 AM   #102
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a dry-sump inverted Model B Ford engine
I can see where a designed inverted engine like for the Bf-109 would handle the oil in the crankcase, but what they did to convert the B engine would be very interesting.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:04 PM   #103
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Many people respond to my Email account with comments, questions, and concerns. Posted below are some of those Emails that have been sanitized to remove Email addresses and last names.

Hello Terry
Very interested in your project and great to hear it is back on track in light of the covid situation. Being that I have a oilfield manufacturing plant in China I have a little experience with the current situation. I would certainly be interested in purchasing the block, crank, main caps and rods once you are in production. It certainly appears that you have done your due diligence in sourcing a suitable company for producing the castings, forgings and machining in china. As I am sure you have seen there are companies there that claim to follow certain quality control procedures and other that actually do perform them. Having lived there for a few years when I set up my plant I gained, what I feel is some good insight on how the production and engineering people think and work.
I will follow your project online and look forward to seeing your updates on this project, and hopefully of seeing it being commercially ready in the near distance future.
Bob

Bob, The factories that we are using in China are state of the art and produce engines for American, European, Japanese, along with their own automobiles. The improved Model A engine was something new to them because "L" head engines haven't been made in the last 60 years. The factories in China are ISO certified and when the dimensions on the Ford drawings were converted to metric on their drawings, all metric dimensions have a smaller tolerance range. Modern engines run at a higher RPM and balancing needs to be more precise than a lower RPM engine like a Model A. The factories will balance to modern standards which is a bonus.





I don't think I could put a motor partly built in china in my Model A. I enjoy reading your article's. Charles

Charles, Thanks for your comment. The world has changed and is now a global economy. I live in Silicon Valley which is just south of San Francisco. In WW2, we had many shipyards, foundries, huge machine shops and everything else to support the war effort. Today that is all gone. We import steel from China for projects like the new bridge between San Francisco and Oakland, skyscrapers, the new transit center in San Francisco, and almost every big project. I don't think that you can rebuild a Model A engine using parts from suppliers that don't come from China.





Terry:
Thanks so much for this exciting update! I have been following this project since its early days and really look forward to seein one of these on a dyno.
Be and do well
Dana

For dyno runs with various combinations of speed equipment, see Piranios https://www.modelaparts.net/
Dyno tests are short in duration. Our target market is for people that want an engine that will run for a length of time at high RPM. Our plan for testing includes running at high RPM on a test stand for a length of time and then installing the engine in a car to do hill climbs. With 5 main bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and 2 inch diameter rod and main bearings, I would guess that the new Model A engine would perform similar to any of Piranios results with a much longer life.

Dear Terry:
Agreed, the Dyno is a short test. However it is used to learn about horsepower. Longevity is certainly what most people will be looking for in this engine. However horsepower is still an interesting metric to have in your pocket, just for comparison sake.
When I was in the AF, I had a 31 Coupe that was in such bad shape I had to get down to 1st gear coming home to Vandenberg AFB from Santa Maria (I donít know the hill statistics, but the last one was a pretty good grade). I finally did the engine and was shocked at my ability to zip up that hill in third gear with ease. I realize that doesnít compare to this situation but it does illustrate the value of a few extra ponies. I Believe the OEM horsepower on that engine was something like about 50Hp. That was such a fun car for a young GI.
You mention hill climbs. Clearly you are well studied in this area, how ever for those who have only a passing acquaintance with the is little machine, the Model A break system is mechanical, even in top shape this is not a car to go zipping up or down hills without some awareness of its limitations. This is, by the way, why (again for those following who arenít aware) one sees so many Model As rolling around on Model B rims. At some point someone has upgraded to ďjuiceĒ brakes and they wouldnít fit behind the Model A drums.
All that said, this is a tremendously fun little machine to own.
Once again, best of luck. This is an exciting little project to watch.

Dana, Thanks again for your comments. We want an engine built like the majority of rebuilt engines. The engine builder that we will be working with has a used high compression head that looks stock that we will be using. He also has a coupe that is capable of hill climbing. As an independent evaluator, we will have him do the testing including hill climbing as we take pictures and videos. With 5 main bearings, larger diameter main and rod bearings, and zero fatigue cycles on all parts, the bottom end should not fly apart at high RPM. First and second gear will be used for braking in decents.





Fabulous! I have the funds set aside for an engine........Andy

Andy, thanks for your comment. Our goal is to provide the new engine parts at a cost that is comparable with the cost of a rebuilt stock engine.





very interested in your project. If you have a list of potential customers that would purchase a complete motor for installation and testing put me on the list!. I have an original 29 roadster that is destined for racing events. John

John, We have no list yet and are not supplying a complete engine. We are only supplying a new 5 main cylinder block, a 5 main crankshaft, and connecting rods. You get to choose pistons, valve train, camshaft, and timing gears.






I am about to build a Model A engine using a Skat counterbalanced crankshaft and all insert bearings. After seeing this proposed "new" engine I think maybe the cost of the "new" engine might be comparable and the new engine would be much better. I will be interested in watching progress and cost. Ronald

Ronald, The proposed "new" engine is almost reality. If the schedule doesn't change, parts, assembly, and testing will be completed in July 2020. We are well aware that cost is an important factor.






Thanks for doing this it is much needed and appreciated by fellow Model A enthusiasts. I hope it keeps moving forward. Sam

Sam, Thanks






Hi
Very interested in one of these blocks, cranks and rods. I was about to have to have my original block machined and fit a new crank and rods so replacing the lot would be an exellent way to go. Good luck with this and please keep me updated.
Thanks Rod


Rod, Thanks for considering the new engine.






Thank you for taking on this massive project. As the availability of rebuildable blocks becomes scarce, it is comforting to know that your efforts will allow this hobby and the preservation of history to go on for many years to come.
Keep up the "steam" and continue to forge ahead with this project. Paul

Paul, Thanks




Hi Terry, I am very interested in this project! I am a 45 year member of MAFCA in Beamsville Ontario Canada. I operated a Babbitt in hand and engine rebuild business for 32 years on a part time basis, while full time teaching millwright at Mohawk College. My son Theo now runs the engine business full time, ď Around the block enginesĒ
Please keep me posted on your progress.
Thanks, Ted

Ted, The next update will include the results of assembly and testing and any problems.








TERRY...
Looks like you have 13 years out of your life on this project. As they say, "Keep the Faith, Baby!" I read your progress reports with great interest and admiration for the professionalism and certainly hope the effort will be repaid with many orders for your new Model A engines. I'd like to buy one, and I don't even need it. Rich

Rich, Since you don't need it, you could use it as a display piece in your man-cave, and if you need to get rid of it, someone would be happy to buy.







Hi Terry,
Just wondering, will the block take adjustable lifters as it comes or do we machine that when we get it?
Sounds pretty good. I figured we would lose several months because of the virus. Thanks, Kerry

Kerry,
The new cylinder block will be machined to Ford drawing A-6015 so that all interfaces are identical to Model A. There is no measuring of an old cylinder block to reverse engineer dimensions. In other words, if a part fits an original cylinder block, then it will fit the new cylinder block.
Some people like to use the adjustable lifters with a locknut and they sometimes machine the top of the lifter bodies shorter for better wrench access. The lifter bodies will be the stock height on the new cylinder block.





Excellent progress ,The patterns and coreboxes are looking good, just like my days at Chrysler Australia. Well Done you two!!! Warwick

Thanks for the compliment. We are using factories that are automated and specialize in the manufacture of engines. I assume that you worked at the factory in Lonsdale that closed in 1980.

Thanks Terry, You are spot on .Yes I worked at Lonsdale, 1st as metal patternmaker in the grey iron foundry, then in the alloy foundry as a quality analyst.By this time Chrysler had sold the plant to Mitsubishi. I retired in 2000 just before it closed. With 20years around casting I know how much work is involved in all the aspects of the process. I am following your progress because I am a Model A enthusiast and look forward to fitting one of your engines.
Good Luck with your progress,All The Best ..Warwick






Thanks for the update Terry!!
With everything going on in the world I thought thing would be set things back until the end of the year. This is great news!! Looking forward to the next update. Hope all is well with you and your family.
Stay well and thanks for all your hard work. The turtle always end up winning the race. Slow but steady.
Take care. Steve

Steve, When Covid19 hit, my thoughts were the same. I'm amazed and happy that Covid19 had little impact on this project. The team (John, Leonard, Bill, and I) along with our families are all well.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:51 AM   #104
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Terry, like many others, my mouth is watering with anticipation of getting my hands on one of your "A" assemblies. I can sense an anticipation of the opportunity to purchase one, but fear the demand be so high that availability could be significantly long. We all want to beat each other to the punch so to speak. Do you have a plan formed for how priority takes place? Will volume meet demand any time soon?
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:46 PM   #105
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Terry's new engine configuration will fill the 'gap' by the loss of guys like Herm Kohnke who's talents sadly are getting quite difficult to replicate.

Properly rebuilding a '90 year old engine' from a Model A Ford isn't w/o a lot of cost and even then you may be part way thru the build and discover you have a bad block and have to start all over. And finally when you are done, you have a freshened up, 90 year old.............. block/engine.

Thank you from all Model A Ford enthusiasts on this venture that you have been working so hard at This is THE best thread on FB
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:35 AM   #106
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Russ/40
If appearance, dimensional checks, assembly, and testing go well, we will authorize production and get on their production schedule.
We will publish the results of the evaluation along with many pictures so that readers can study the results and make an informed decision before placing an order.
Once production starts, it will go fast.
The factories that we are using make OEM parts, so they understand production.
Once production begins, we will publish pricing and ordering instructions here on FordBarn, the Email list, and to local clubs belonging to MARC and MAFCA.
Leonard, one of our team members will be handling distribution.


Jeff/Illinois
Thanks for the compliment.
Engine rebuilding machinery index on previously machined surfaces.
One of the big challenges with rebuilding a 90-year-old block is that the machined surfaces used to index from may have been mss-machined in the past.
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:02 PM   #107
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Terry, this awesome work you are doing. Thanks for not giving up! Looking forward to getting one. Ted
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:00 PM   #108
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Pasted below are a few additional comments received.



I appreciate your dedication to this project, Terry, under rather extreme circumstances. Iím in Southern Ontario, Canada, and am patiently awaiting the end of this Covid 19 threat. Cheers! Al

Al, Thanks for the complement. I'm glad that Covid19 had a minimal impact on progress.





Terry
this has been fascinating following the progress and setbacks throughout the entire process. Thank you for sticking with it. You are a very determined man. I look forward to the day when I can run one of these.
Pat

Pat, It's been a long journey and I look forward to the end.







Dear Terry ,
Thank you very much for your update.
A view questions.

1. Will the machining off the engine Block be done in China or the US ??
2. We have a full programm ready for a Haas CNC machine to machine the engine Blocks .Only line boring willl be done by conventional machining.
3. It looks like the botthem of the engine (connection tot he oilpan is to thin for machining)
4. How many material is added for machining
5. We have experience with 3d engineeering , casting and machining of engine blocks let me know if it is possible to send us an casted block for inspection.
6. Is it possible to do the same here with assembling and testing we have the experience

Will send you videoo of engines we have done .
Prepared to help to improve the project with experience and quality machining.
Friendly regards,
Hans


Hans,
1) Machining will be done in China.
2) China will provide a cylinder block that is line bored and ready for assembly. They will also supply the fully machined crankshaft and connecting rods.
3) The bottom of the raw casting has .10 inch of material that needs to be removed during machining.
4) All machined surfaces have an extra .10 inch that is removed during machining.
5) We have not requested un-machined castings. Machining a raw casting would require several unique fixtures.
6) For a second evaluation of the design, we would be happy for you to do the assembly and testing of an engine.


Dear Terry,
Thank you for answering me .
The fixtures are available no problem.
We would love to get started with the new castings and testing and distribute the engines Europe wide.
I Think the best way would be shipping the engines directly to Europe to avoid extra shipping costs and custom charges.
I am open to for support and suggestions from your side.
Friendly regards,
Hans


Hans,
I am the engineer on this project.
Before production, we need to evaluate the new engine parts. The May 2020 update addressed what we are planning to do for "Design Verification" before we authorize production.
Un-machined castings and forgings will not be available.
All parts will be machined in China in factories that specialize in making cylinder blocks, crankshafts, and connecting rods. Part of the final inspection process for the cylinder block will be to pressurize the water jacket to make sure that it has no porosity after machining.
The only machining that may be needed to the parts that we are supplying is to ensure that the piston to wall clearance is adequate. Original pistons were split skirt and clearance could be .002 inch. If you are using solid skirt pistons, the clearance should be .004 inch.
John Lampl, another team member, is responsible for manufacturing, quality control, and transportation.
John and I talked about you becoming our distributor in Europe and how the parts would be shipped directly to you to avoid paying customs and other fees twice.
I have cc'd John in this Email.


Dear Terry,
Thank you very much fort his clear info!!
We will wait patiently.
Friendly regards, Hans








I am interested in the progress and testing of the engine with the possibility of purchasing one in the future depending on test results, compatibility with vintage Ford external components, and cost. This is an exciting idea and I hope it succeeds. I am skeptical given the quality and fit of many reproduction parts which that we encounter these days. Given the attention to detail and length of time that is detailed on the website, I hope this is a success. Jeff

Jeff,
Thanks for your comments. I am a manufacturer of Model A parts that pass judging at MARC and MAFCA events. Don't be skeptical. If the parts from China don't meet our requirements, they will not be offered for sale.







Hey Terry,
Wow, exciting indeed , after all these years!!
How do I go about getting on your list to purchase one or more of your engines ?
Thanks for your perseverance in your/our dream.
Rick

Rick,
The last time that we spoke was at the MARC convention in San Diego in 2011.
Before we sell any parts, they need to pass a visual inspection, a mechanical inspection to ensure that all interfaces meet the tolerances on Ford drawings, run-in testing at high RPM, and hill climbing. We are planning to offer a discount to parts dealers, machine shops, and others who purchase 5 or more at a time. Once testing is complete and authorization for the production run is given, I will post the Email address where people can order parts.





Hi
I have wrote this before. In the Great USA there must be a foundry that could use the business ,and not send it to China ! I am a Canadian and I want the money to go to Americaís
Stephen


Stephen, I spent 8 years (2007 to 2015) and several thousands of dollars attempting to have these engine parts manufactured in California. I also contacted numerous foundries in the mid-west and none were interested in a casting with multiple cores. None of the foundries that I worked with and contacted had the machine shop capabilities to provide a ready to assemble cylinder block. The factory in China making the cylinder block has pattern makers, a foundry, machine shop, and will deliver a cylinder block that is ready for assembly. The factory in China only makes cylinder blocks. They don't make brake rotors, exhaust manifolds, fire hydrants, frying pans, or manhole covers.





Thanks for your continuous updates! Congratulations for a very professional and useful quest. It will be much appreciated and widely heralded in the Model A Community., Rich

Rich, Thanks for your comments.






The New model a engine, will it be babbit or press in bearings. Lloyd

The new engine will have pressed in bushings for the camshaft, and inserts for the main and connecting rod bearings.
The inserts are part number CB745P and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors.
Check out Ebayhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Rod-Bearing-Set-Fits-87-03-Buick-Chevrolet-Beretta-Cavalier-2-0L-L4-OHV-8v/281494310467 and click on "See Compatible Vehicles" to view a partial list of cars and trucks that used this insert.





Hi Terry,
Just wondering, will the block take adjustable lifters as it comes or do we machine that when we get it?
Sounds pretty good. I figured we would lose several months because of the virus.
Thanks, Kerry


Kerry,
The new cylinder block will be machined to Ford drawing A-6015 so that all interfaces are identical to Model A. There is no measuring of an old cylinder block to reverse engineer dimensions. In other words, if a part fits an original cylinder block, then it will fit the new cylinder block.
Some people like to use the adjustable lifters with a locknut and they sometimes machine the top of the lifter bodies shorter for better wrench access. The lifter bodies will be the stock height on the new cylinder block.







Terry:
Thanks for the update and the tooling photos. This has been a long journey for you, but a vacation of hope for the rest of us.
Thanks again, Kem


Kem,
It is good to hear from you.
I miss the days when you and I traveled to see Carl.







Terry,
Is the boss for the engine's serial number located correctly? Not sure by looking at the pictures. JM

Jim,
The serial number boss is in the correct position.
In the pictures, everything above the boss is sand cores that will support cores and provide venting.
The casting will have no iron above the serial number boss.
Compare the size and location of the serial number boss to the water inlet and things will look better.







I am sure Louie would really enjoy receiving your updates but he passed away 2 years ago on March 24, 2018. He always looked forward to your emails.

JoAnn,
Thanks for your Email.
I'm so sorry to hear about the passing of Louie in 2018 when this project was stalled.
Hopefully, he can look down and see it has been revived.
Our chapter (SCVC) of MAFCA has several members (both men and women) that have lost spouses, however, they remain active members and enjoy the camaraderie. I hope that you are in a similar situation.






Terry
Why the need for model A engines ? they are dime a dozen !
Carl

Carl,
Thank you for your comment.
You are on my Hotmail contact list because of your request.
You are very fortunate that you can buy Model A engines for less than a penny each.
You could make money by selling them to rebuilders that are looking for re-buildable cylinder blocks.
Please reply if you would like me to remove you from my Hotmail contacts list.
My free Hotmail account only allows me to send 300 updates to contacts in a 24 hour period, and I would like to thin the contact list.
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Old 06-07-2020, 08:32 PM   #109
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Carl, in my opinion and it doesn't account for much Model A blocks being a 'dime-a-dozen', well maybe and maybe not if you want a good one. As time goes by the good ones will get harder to find.

As a comparison, one thing for sure in the Ford Flathead world, good Flathead blocks are even harder to locate. As my dad told me in my youth (and he was a Ford man who owned many Flathead Fords new and used) 'There are two kinds of Flatheads. Those that have a cracked block and those that are GOING to have a cracked block.'

Model A's engines are easier to deal with than Flatheads and Terry's new block will continue this hobby for generations to come. They will make it a better hobby than what it is already, and for you guys that like to push a Model A to the limit you blow an engine huh so what let's build another one
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Old 06-07-2020, 09:50 PM   #110
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Carl, in my opinion and it doesn't account for much

Model A's engines are easier to deal with than Flatheads and Terry's new block will continue this hobby for generations to come. They will make it a better hobby than what it is already, and for you guys that like to push a Model A to the limit you blow an engine huh so what let's build another one
It may not be just that easy, at this point Vintage racing requires an authentic block. This block is not going to pass tech shed.

On issue that Donovan ran into was this, that is a hell for stout motor but cannot be used in competition.

I guess you could make application for a production status after a few thousand are made and sold maybe.

I hope this project is successful, John
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:34 AM   #111
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I note that Terry has gotten several questions along the lines of "Why give this business to China?" I think this quote from Apple CEO Tim Cook in 2017 shows exactly why:
Quote:
The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I'm not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low labor cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location, and the type of skill it is. The products we do require really advanced tooling...and the tooling skill is very deep [in China]. In the U.S. you could have a meeting of tooling engineers, and I'm not sure we could fill the room. In China you could fill multiple football fields.
You can read more about the difficulty of re-creating the US's manufacturing capacity here.
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Old 06-10-2020, 08:41 AM   #112
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Anyone have a guesstimate as to what the cost would be to the average Joe to purchase one of these blocks ready to assemble?
Also, what would the horsepower increase be?
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Old 06-10-2020, 09:27 AM   #113
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Quote:
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Russ/40
If appearance, dimensional checks, assembly, and testing go well, we will authorize production and get on their production schedule.
We will publish the results of the evaluation along with many pictures so that readers can study the results and make an informed decision before placing an order.
Once production starts, it will go fast.
The factories that we are using make OEM parts, so they understand production.
Once production begins, we will publish pricing and ordering instructions here on FordBarn, the Email list, and to local clubs belonging to MARC and MAFCA.
Leonard, one of our team members will be handling distribution.


Jeff/Illinois
Thanks for the compliment.
Engine rebuilding machinery index on previously machined surfaces.
One of the big challenges with rebuilding a 90-year-old block is that the machined surfaces used to index from may have been mss-machined in the past.
I would like to voltmeter to be a Beta tester on these new blocks/engines once production begins.
As I use my Model A as a "daily driver", logging 3-5K or more miles per year, and I am "not" an engineer I could provide a "real World" "average Joe" evaluation of performance, maintenance. and pros and cons of this new block to your main target consumer...the "average Joe"
This is a very thought provoking tread.

Grandpa always said..."You'll never know unless you ask"
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Old 06-11-2020, 01:17 AM   #114
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It may not be just that easy, at this point Vintage racing requires an authentic block. This block is not going to pass tech shed.
On issue that Donovan ran into was this, that is a hell for stout motor but cannot be used in competition.
I guess you could make application for a production status after a few thousand are made and sold maybe.
I hope this project is successful, John

John,
Thanks for your comments and words of encouragement.
The new engine is not intended for vintage racing, and nobody should cheat!!
The exterior of the new engine is identical to stock, so some disassembly is needed to confirm that the new engine isn't old. The easiest way to determine that it is not original would be to remove the oil filler tube and see if there is a web for a main bearing. If someone wants to cheat and new iron is needed to replace an original cylinder block, intermediate main bearing #2 could be removed from the new cylinder block. If 5 mains are wanted, a girdle could be fabricated to replace the missing main bearing. This would allow the new 5 main crankshaft with 8 counterweights and large bearings along with new connecting rods to be used. The next easiest way to determine that the new cylinder block is not original would be to remove the A-6017 Timing Gear Cover to see if there is a serial number and an oil passage plug that is not original.
What is the definition of an "authentic" block? Do the German G28T engines that were built as late as 1958 with full oil pressure and insert bearings qualify for vintage competition?
Regarding Donovan engines, I agree that they were stout, but they didn't look like a Model A engine when you got close, and many interfaces for attaching parts were different than stock Model A.



I note that Terry has gotten several questions along the lines of "Why give this business to China?" I think this quote from Apple CEO Tim Cook in 2017 shows exactly why:
Quote:
The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I'm not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low labor cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location, and the type of skill it is. The products we do require really advanced tooling...and the tooling skill is very deep [in China]. In the U.S. you could have a meeting of tooling engineers, and I'm not sure we could fill the room. In China you could fill multiple football fields.
You can read more about the difficulty of re-creating the US's manufacturing capacity here. alexiskia


Alexiskia,
Thanks for the quote from Tom Cook. He is absolutely correct. I tried to have the "new engine" manufactured in the USA for several years. All of the foundries that I worked with have no quality assurance when it comes to making and assembling cores, and they refuse to follow a procedure.


Anyone have a guesstimate as to what the cost would be to the average Joe to purchase one of these blocks ready to assemble?
Also, what would the horsepower increase be? Keith

Keith,
Even with the uncertainties regarding transportation, customs, and tariffs, the retail price will be close to the cost of a quality rebuild assuming that you have good parts for the rebuild which means that no valve seats, cylinder sleeves, Helicoils, or crack repair is needed. If you have $3 to $4 K to spend, you are fine.
The "new engine" is designed for reliability with a stiffer crankshaft having 8 counterweights and is supported with five 2 inch diameter main bearings, connecting rod journals that are 2 inch diameter instead of 1 1/2 inch, and many more improvements.
Horsepower depends on what add-on parts you choose to use. If you use all stock parts, HP will be 40. At the other extreme, if you choose to use a DOHC HAL head with dual Winfield D carburetors, or something similar, HP will be closer to 200.




I would like to voltmeter to be a Beta tester on these new blocks/engines once production begins.
As I use my Model A as a "daily driver", logging 3-5K or more miles per year, and I am "not" an engineer I could provide a "real World" "average Joe" evaluation of performance, maintenance. and pros and cons of this new block to your main target consumer...the "average Joe"
This is a very thought provoking tread. Keith

Keith, Thanks for your offer to voltmeter to be a Beta tester. This is either a new test to me, or something is wrong with spell check. If you have big fingers like me, I understand the problem.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:17 AM   #115
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"Voltmeter"? What the heck?
Since given the option of the problem, I would like to choose cause A, spell check (final answer)
Because it can't be my fat fingers or the fact that I'm getting old...could it?

Thank you for the response, the cost is well within most budgets but expected a HP increase using stock parts. but the 200 HP possibility blows my mind.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:36 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burner31 View Post
"Voltmeter"? What the heck?
Since given the option of the problem, I would like to choose cause A, spell check (final answer)
Because it can't be my fat fingers or the fact that I'm getting old...could it?

Thank you for the response, the cost is well within most budgets but expected a HP increase using stock parts. but the 200 HP possibility blows my mind.
Burner31,

yes, spelczek is your friend.............sometimes.

You should see what it takes to get to 300hp!!
This about 270 when dyno broke.

John
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:40 PM   #117
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More comments, questions, and concerns.


Burner31,
yes, spelczek is your friend.............sometimes.
You should see what it takes to get to 300hp!!
This about 270 when dyno broke. John


John, Thanks for your reply. From your attached picture, I'm impressed that you were able to obtain 270 HP using a stock cylinder block in tension. If you were to cut a cylinder block in half horizontally through the valve chamber and cylinders, there is not very much area to accommodate tension loading. With that much HP, have you considered using exterior stay rods on both sides of the cylinder block that would be in tension and externally connect the head to the girdle to put the cylinder block in compression? Ask Google "Is cast iron stronger in compression or tension?"






Will complete engines be available? Leonard

Leonard, No, we are not in the engine building business. The only parts that we will provide are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods that are ready for assembly. You or your engine assembler can choose new or used stock or higher performance parts like pistons, camshaft, valve train, timing gears, head, oil pump, and everything else needed to make a complete engine that will perform and stay within your budget.






Hi Terry,
I know you folks are working hard to bring the dream into reality. As we get closer to production and a customer a build, I need to start ordering parts to assemble the new engine. I will not use any used parts except for the oil pan. If you made an engine parts list to complete your test engine, would you mind sharing?
One additional thought. I normally use gas that has no alcohol when possible. On extended trips mostly a 10% mixture is found. I put in hardened valve seats and modern valves so I can use either. Will I need to do this on the new block as well?
Thanks, Kerry

Kerry, Thanks for having faith in what we are doing.
I don't have a list of parts, but we are only making the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Everything else can be stock Ford or aftermarket if it has stock interfaces.
The new cylinder block has hard seats in the 4 exhaust ports. They are MAHLE part number 218-7535, and available in 2 over-sizes if ever needed.

Thanks Terry for specifying harden seats. New valves and we are good to go. No one could have done this except you. Thank you and your team for your dedication and tenacity. Kerry




Thanks for your efforts to get a ďnew EngineĒ for the Model A. If you still have an update list I would like to be added to it.
Thanks Frank

Frank, your Email address had been added to the update list.





HELLO,I OWN A 30 FORD BOATAILED SPEEDSTER SPECIAL, LOOKING FOR A MORE PERIOD CORRECT ENGINE. WHAT PRICE RANGE FOR THE PACKAGE,ETA,HOW DO YOU FEEL PERFORMANCE WILL COMPARE TO (DONAVNE D) RICHARD

Richard, Regarding "period correct". we have strived to provide a product that has an external appearance that is identical to an original Model A engine and will have all interfaces for bolt on parts identical to original.

The price range will be between $3K and $4K for the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Exact pricing is dependent on tariffs, customs, transportation, and several other factors. We have firm prices from the factories that are manufacturing the first run of parts, however, those prices are subject to change with future orders.

Many people have been following this project since 2007 with encouraging comments, and we need to offer a discount to them so they will be able to buy 1 set of parts at close to the dealer price for a limited time.

From my observations of Donovan engines, they look good from about 30 feet away, but as you get closer, differences from stock become obvious, and a lot of interfaces for attaching parts are not stock.

Regarding performance, check out what Piaranios has done with stock cylinder blocks. https://automotiveamerican.com/2019/...d-engine-dyno/

Our new engine has an exterior appearance identical to stock, but with 5 main and 4 connecting rod bearings that are larger in diameter and 8 crankshaft counterweights, the new engine will have similar performance to what Piaranios tested, but have longer life due to larger bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and less crankshaft flexing.







Hi Terry, Iíve been reading about all your good work from the UK, Iím keeping my fingers crossed the verification process goes to plan. Is there a possibility of shipping to the UK? Thank you, Anton

Anton, yes, we will ship to the UK or anywhere in the world. Do you have a dealer with the resources to buy 5 at a time? If so, we would like to ship from China directly to the UK to avoid you having to pay customs twice.







I am very interested in your project. Would be interested in the finished product. I am building a number of different heads. Cook, Roof, Rutherford, and Winfield. Always having difficulty locating good blocks.
Stay in touch and keep me up dated. Thank you...Kevin


Kevin, You and I have the same passion for speed equipment to enhance the performance of the Model A Ford engine, and I think that you will be happy with the parts that we will provide.
Good stock cylinder blocks and crankshafts are getting harder to find, and they are not the best design compared to newer engines.



Please add my name if you have a list, Gerald 256-310-6XXX

Gerald, You are on the Email list for updates. We don't have another list because we don't have a product to sell that has passed verification. If and when the "new engine" meets our approval, everyone on the Email list and MARC and MAFCA chapters will be notified. Leonard, one of our team members will be responsible to create a list and fulfill orders as they are received. Leonard's contact information will be published after the new engine passes verification and the factories in China are given the go-ahead for production.





As an engineer myself (electrical) I am very excited about this new design. If it reaches production then I would like to obtain one or more assemblies for trial use in my personal Model A's and for installation in customer vehicles. David

David, Thanks for your comments.




I am very interested in having a more reliable, Model A engine with more power. I want to be able to cruise on the hi-way with traffic at 70 mph and destroy my engine. If this engine gets completed, I would be interested in a long block, and knowing what to cost would be.
Thank you, and good luck in your adventure. Mike


Mike, I think that you meant to say "not destroy" instead of destroy. We plan to test the new engine at a high RPM on a test stand for a length of time to prove reliability, and then go hill climbing. An original Model A crankshaft has 3 main bearings that are 1 5/8 inch diameter, and connecting rod bearings that are 1 1/2 inch diameter and no counterweights. The new engine has 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and all bearing journals are 2-inch diameter, so it should be more reliable. For liability reasons, I cannot support your idea of keeping up with traffic at 70 MPH, just like I couldn't support the use of the new engine to power an airplane in an earlier post. We are supplying a new cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. You and/or your engine builder will choose all attaching parts (new or used) to build an engine. We are not short or long block engine builders.




The distance between main bearing bolts is 2 inches. how can you use a 2 inch main bearing without rubbing the bolts? Ralph

Ralph, Thanks for your question. To maintain the original external appearance for front and center main bearings, the new engine uses studs that are in the same location as the original main bolts. The upper portion of the studs are 1/2-20 UNF and use castellated nuts and cotter pins as original. These studs are reduced to 7/16 inch diameter where they pass through the cylinder block/main cap interface, and the main caps are retained with 7/16-20 UNF nuts. The nominal clearance between the 2-inch crankshaft journal and the 7/16 studs is .03125 inch.




Hi, I read your crankshaft section, but what do you mean with 100%. Is 100% with rod and pistons weight in calculated in the crankshaft counterweights?
I am from Norway not very good is technical english.
Regards, Bjornar

Bjornar, Your technical English is good. When I say 100%, the counterweights are sized to exert a downward force equal to the upward force of stopping the piston at TDC. In other words, there are no bending forces in the crankshaft from stopping the piston. Note in the article that the counterweights are almost 1/2 of a circle and the crankshaft weighs 90 pounds. I have since changed the design so that the counterweights are smaller and not 100%. Everything in engineering is a compromise and I made the change to lessen the mass of the crankshaft for faster acceleration. The crankshaft counterweights could be drilled opposite of the connecting rod journals and have tungsten added to get back to 100% if desired. In the equation, SE is the small end weight of the connecting rod including the weight of the piston, wrist pin, and rings.
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Old 06-17-2020, 05:03 PM   #118
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry this may be a stupid question, but will the new engine HAVE to run a filter?

I know it is better for the engine but I never liked the looks of a filter on a Model A. I don't mind just draining the oil every 500 miles not a big deal.

Thanks
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:20 PM   #119
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi everyone,

Following are some recent progress photos of the blocks, crankshaft, and connecting rods.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg thumbnail_image 11.jpg (48.0 KB, 90 views)
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:21 PM   #120
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I don't recall hearing anything about the cam. Will we be on our own shopping for a cam, or will a stock A cam work with the 5 webs in the block?
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Old 06-19-2020, 09:54 PM   #121
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

You are correct in the observation of the block needing more support. Sorry, I cannot show the other side of this motor and any internals, you understand.

The parts look great, keep up the work, John
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:40 PM   #122
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will the new block have main studs instead of bolts and nuts?
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Old 06-21-2020, 02:15 PM   #123
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry this may be a stupid question, but will the new engine HAVE to run a filter?

I know it is better for the engine but I never liked the looks of a filter on a Model A. I don't mind just draining the oil every 500 miles not a big deal.

Thanks, Jeff



Jeff,

Thanks for your question. There are no stupid questions.

The answer is NO, a filter is not required and this will keep the exterior looking like the original. This no filter configuration is what we are planning to use for longevity and hill climb testing.

After the above testing is complete, we plan to reconfigure the engine to use an external oil filter and do additional testing on the run-in stand.

When using an external oil filter, a threaded dowel pin (McMaster Carr pull-out dowel pin #97355A401) needs to be installed in one of the internal oil passages. Oil will now exit the cylinder block where the 1/8 NPT plug is on the side of the cylinder block. The oil will flow to an external filter, and from the filter to the lower bolt of the timing gear inspection cover which needs to be drilled and tapped 1/8 NPT.
From the drilled bolt, internal passages connect to the main oil galley that runs full length of the cylinder block.

Whether you choose to use an oil filter or not, a higher volume oil pump is recommended. For testing, we will be using modified Model A oil pumps where the intake window is enlarged, the shaft has a reduced diameter between bushings and the exit holes are enlarged. In addition, an oil pump modified for an external oil filter needs the 2 upper slots filled to force all of the oil out at the 1/8 NPT plug fitting.







I know that production is close but any thoughts about drilling the back of the crank for two more flywheel mounting bolts? Or would it be possible to drill them later. Thanks, Richard
P.S. I can hardly wait to get one or two of you new engines!


Richard,
The new engine parts will have all original interfaces including the 2 dowel pins in the crankshaft flange.
Once received by buyers, the buyer is free to make modifications.
In mechanical design, dowel pins are used for precise location and to take shear loads.
I question the reason for wanting bolts instead of dowel pins. Dowel pins are stronger than bolts in shear and their precise diameter won't allow radial movement. Think about letting the 4 bolts do retention and let the 2 dowel pins take care of location and shear.





I don't recall hearing anything about the cam. Will we be on our own shopping for a cam, or will a stock A cam work with the 5 webs in the block? Russ


Russ,
You will get to choose the camshaft along with all the other parts. A 3 bearing camshaft will work. All 5 camshaft bushings in the new cylinder block have passages connected to the main oil galley. Bushings 1, 3, and 5 have holes that expose the oil passages. Camshaft bushings 2 and 4 have bushings that block the oil passages. If a 5 bearing camshaft is used, holes must be drilled in bushings 2 and 4 to connect with the oil passages.





Terry,
You are correct in the observation of the block needing more support. Sorry, I cannot show the other side of this motor and any internals, you understand.
The parts look great, keep up the work, John

John,
Thanks for the reply. I understand and could say with almost certainly what you are doing to get that horsepower and keeping a stock cylinder block intact. I won't comment.





Will the new block have main studs instead of bolts and nuts? DB

DB,
All 5 main bearing caps will be retained with studs and nuts.
Connecting rods will utilize bolts for retention.
All main and connecting rod caps will have 2 dowel pins each for location.
All hardware is UNF and UNC and 170KSI yield which is stronger than Grade 8.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:27 PM   #124
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Schedule slip.

The machinery that was being used to manufacture the new engine cylinder block is temporarily being utilized to make locomotive cylinder heads. We were expecting delivery of the sample parts just after the 4th of July and now the schedule has slipped by 2 to 3 weeks. This schedule slip does not affect the crankshaft or connecting rods.

As part of the verification process in China, we have sent many parts (wristpin bushing, wristpin, bearing inserts, ratchet nut, front pulley, Woodruff key, crankshaft timing gear, valve guide, tappet, and several other parts) so they can be assembled and fit checked before shipment.
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Old 07-04-2020, 01:31 PM   #125
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The delay due to machining locomotive cylinder heads is over and the new engine cylinder blocks are back to being machined. The connecting rods and crankshaft are complete and have been fit checked against one another. After the cylinder blocks are complete, there will be a fit check with the crankshaft, and then all parts will be air shipped and deliver to the 3rd party that will build, test, and evaluate the new engine. The engineering evaluation parts should arrive before the end of July 2020. John and I will be there and we are getting excited about seeing the parts for the first time. We will also document the build, assist where we can, and document the testing.

If all goes well and there are no changes, we should have parts in stock and for sale sometime in September. A firm introductory price has been set and it will be $3500 for a limited time. Dealers who buy 5 or more at a time will receive a further discount.

Pasted below are more comments and questions that were sent to the Email list at "model.a.engine@hotmail.com"







Like everyone else Iím curious about the price. Do you know when you will be accepting deposits? Thanks, Bill

Bill, we won't have a product to sell until it passes our engineering evaluation that includes appearance and performance testing. I'm the design engineer on this project, not the bean counter. We will accept orders and deposits after engineering evaluation, and where and how to place an order will be published to those on the Email list, FordBarn, MARC, MAFCA, and other places. We are not in the retail business, however, we will offer a discounted price of $3500 that is close to wholesale for a limited time to those that have followed this project since its beginning in 2007.






I would be interested in one of these casting sets (i.e. block, crankshaft, con rods, etc)
I would like to know a price estimate when you get that far.
Thanks very much!
Bill

Bill, The price will be $3500 for a limited time. Dealers who by 5 sets of parts at a time will receive a further discount.





I had a model A engine redone for around $2500.00. Will this new engine be priced around that amount? Moe

Moe, For a limited time after production begins, pricing will be $3500 for the new 5 main cylinder block, 5 main crankshaft with 8 counterweights, and 4 connecting rods. All of these parts will be made in China using factories that make many OEM parts for European, American, and Japanese automobile manufacturers.
I am curious regarding what you received with your $2500 rebuild. When I search the internet, rebuild costs for Model A engines are somewhat more than $2500 and even higher when extra work is needed to add crankshaft counterweights, balance the crankshaft and connecting rods, fix cracks, drill out broken studs to insert Helicoils, add valve seats, and install cylinder sleeves.
The factory in China that we are working with has multiple machining lines. Our order is small and will be utilizing the smallest machining line and that is why the price will be $3500.
If we were to place an order for 10,000 sets of parts, the order would be filled by using a machining line that is fully automated and the price for a set of parts would likely be close to half the cost of a $2500 rebuild.






Thank you for your continued interest in developing a replacement block and head for our Model A Vehicles.
Currently doing Frame Up on 1930 Closed Cab PU. Engine is tired and parts car (1928 Closed Cab) hasn't been torn down yet but I expect the same condition.
I would much rather start off with a new block and head before beginning the engine rebuild
Any communication will be sincerely appreciated. Don

Don, We are only making the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. New heads are available from other sources. After 90 years and multiple repairs and questionable rebuilds, it's a good idea to start over with fresh surfaces that are within drawing tolerances. Regarding communication, I've added you to the Email list. All Emails sent from the list are sent Bcc so there is no chance that someone else will see your Email address.







Re-engineering the Model A engine I find to be one of the most fascinating projects I've read about in years. I like my original stock engine, but I'm always concerned about it's health and have interest in internal modifications, but I don't particularly like to modify good usable antique parts. A new re-engineered engine I find completely appropriate for us that like to get out every chance we get to go cruising.in an "A" no matter how hot it gets in Texas. Very interested! Terry

Terry, I added your contact information to the Email list. Thanks for the kind words. The new Model A engine will appear completely stock on the exterior because the exterior of an original cylinder block was laser scanned to create a SolidWorks model that was used to make the foundry patterns. Internally, the new Model A engine will be technically close to the last "L" head engines produced around 1970. Metallurgy, heat treating, rolling all crankshaft fillets, and balancing will be similar to current production engines. The new engine parts include the cylinder block with caps, thrust bearings, dowel pins, and hardware to attach the main bearing caps, a crankshaft with dowel pins and Woodruff key, and 4 connecting rods with wrist pin bushings and bolts to fasten the caps. Everything else is stock Model A Ford and does not need modification. We do recommend a higher volume oil pump that can be aftermarket or a modified Model A Ford oil pump.






I am interested in building a new engine for my Tudor and would like to use your products when they are ready. I am not in any hurry as my engine is low mileage and runs great now. I like your concept and engineering and the options for different levels of performance and reliability. Don


Don, Thanks for your comments. If all goes well, we should have parts for sale sometime in September 2020.
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Old 07-04-2020, 06:19 PM   #126
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What will the approx HP be?
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:08 AM   #127
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What ever you want to make.
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Old 07-05-2020, 07:12 AM   #128
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Dodge you are 100% correct. After I asked the question I said well, that was a very stupid question.
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Old 07-05-2020, 09:30 AM   #129
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Old31
Spell check bit you
You were asking how much hp could this be built to produce?

J
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:53 PM   #130
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Wow Terry, amazing stuff

Good for you!!!
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Old 07-05-2020, 05:13 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
Old31
Spell check bit you
You were asking how much hp could this be built to produce?

J
Nope, sorry, I was not that smart to ask the question that way.
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:53 AM   #132
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Maybe the question should be how much power can it handle. The weak link is usually the crank and this one looks pretty stout.
It would be fun to put a good overhead on it and see how it will RPM.
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:21 PM   #133
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Thank you for your very thorough description of the production process and what to expect in the final product.

From what I’ve read, all the machining will be done so the block will be ready For the engine builder to assemble the engine. I assume the buyer will have the option to use insert or Babbitt bearings. Is that correct?

David Serrano
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Old 07-07-2020, 04:35 PM   #134
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

From everything Terry has explained, if you want babbit bearings, your going to have to get that done as a custom project, as he has planed for all insert bearings. ( not included )

Cam bushings will be installed.
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:07 PM   #135
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks Russ. It’s hard for this old brain to retain all that information.

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Old 07-08-2020, 12:33 PM   #136
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.

I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one.

Thank you
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Old 07-08-2020, 01:24 PM   #137
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
Terry,
Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.

I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one.

Thank you
It has been stated that the bearing inserts are Small Block Chevy. Probably one of the most popular engines ever made. Bearings available at any auto parts store.
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Old 07-08-2020, 04:28 PM   #138
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
It has been stated that the bearing inserts are Small Block Chevy. Probably one of the most popular engines ever made. Bearings available at any auto parts store.
Thanks Chris, I missed that. Dave
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:42 PM   #139
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, I used to get your email updates on the new engine, but don't any more. I have been following your updates with great interest and desire to purchase. In preparation for my order which just awaits your go ahead, please include my email address on your followers list so I will get the go ahead to order early. Thank you for your commitment to the project and the excitement you are bringing to our hobby. Russ/40


Russ, Thanks for letting me know that you are no longer receiving the updates by Email. I'm always trying to shorten the Email list. When I get a message that an Email was undeliverable for some reason, I delete that Email address from the list.
I see that you have 2 Email addresses and have added both to the list.





I also would be interested in the new blocks and would . can you keep me in the loop when they will be ready for sale. Thanks Lawrie


Lawrie, When we have parts for sale, we will notify people on the Email list, MARC chapters, MAFCA chapters, and forums. I see that you are not on the Email list, so you will likely hear about it on FordBarn.






Maybe the question should be how much power can it handle. The weak link is usually the crank and this one looks pretty stout.
It would be fun to put a good overhead on it and see how it will RPM. Dodge


Dodge, I had the connecting rods finite element analyzed for 150 HP at 5000 RPM (158 lb-ft at 5000 RPM) and the stresses were very low. More can be found here http://www.modelaengine.com/12-conne...gn-a-6200.html
The crankshaft is stout and well supported compared to a Model A or B crankshaft, but has not been analyzed.






Terry, Thank you for your very thorough description of the production process and what to expect in the final product.
From what Iíve read, all the machining will be done so the block will be ready For the engine builder to assemble the engine. I assume the buyer will have the option to use insert or Babbitt bearings. Is that correct? David


David, Yes, the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods will be ready for assembly using bearing inserts that GM used from 1955 until 2003. If you want Babbitt, your engine builder can provide, but it will be an added expense to pour and line bore.






Hi Terry, I have followed your efforts for years, good to see it coming together.
I will need a block late this fall to assemble and test. I will pair it with a Roof overhead valve head I have in storage. I am also developing a set of hydraulic lifters that are contained in the profile of a standard Model A tappet. I had this head on a "B" block that cracked and at the time was having a problem keeping the valve lash within tolerance...thus the hydraulic lifters.
This setup put out about 118 hp on the dyno at 3500 rpm. I think your block assembly will work well with this project.
Upon successful completion of the test assembly, I am interested in becoming one of your wholesale purchasers of the block assemblies.
I look forward to the engine being available. Dave


Dave, Thanks for the kind words
The main oil gallery is just above the valve chamber floor and runs the full length of the cylinder block. The gallery is located between the cylinders and tappet bosses. From the centerline of the main bearings, the centerline of the gallery is 2.35 inches in the horizontal direction and 4.46 inches in the vertical direction. The diameter of the main oil gallery is .393 inches in diameter. Every one of the tappet bosses could be drilled from the valve cover side through to the gallery and the starting hole could be plugged with a setscrew.
We would be happy for you to become a dealer with a wholesale account.







Terry, Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.
I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one. Thank you, Dave



The inserts are MAHLE part number CB745P (trimetal) and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors. The first usage was in the 1955 265 cubic inch V-8, and the last usage was in the 2.0 liter 4 cylinder OHV that was made in 2003. Both the main and connecting rod journals are the same at 2 inch diameter. The price for a pair of inserts including postage can be less than $3 for a pair. 12 pairs of inserts are required for the new engine. Check out Ebay #281494310467. Other manufacturers also make this insert.

The new cylinder block and rear main cap will have a bore of 5-inch diameter, and the crankshaft will have the flywheel mounting flange (4-inch diameter) that is extended forward to provide a seal rubbing surface. The rear main seal will be a SKF 39933, Timken 415035, or others with a 5 inch OD that seals on a 4-inch shaft. The seals mentioned above have garter springs. Garter springs are usually not used on high speed shafts, so we will likely remove the garter spring for our engineering evaluation engine.
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:38 PM   #140
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

.
FYI - Terry Burtz posted the following progress update today on the development of the Model A block:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

15 July 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com This website also has previous updates, pictures and videos.

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, suggestion, or wants to get on the Email list for updates, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue and add your Email address to the update list.

FordBarn,(https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782) is an internet social group for Model A Ford hobbyists and there are a lot of interesting questions and comments regarding this project. There are too many people on the Email list to keep everyone informed as things progress, so please check the FordBarn website for the latest developments. The FordBarn thread also tells the complete story from July 2019 when this stalled project was resurrected.


New Engine

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and they have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 19 June 2020.


Cylinder Block and Main Caps

We were expecting to have the engineering evaluation hardware (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods delivered just after the July 4th holiday. This didn't happen because the machinery being utilized to machine the cylinder blocks was reassigned to machine locomotive cylinder heads. This resulted in a schedule slip and the new Model A cylinder blocks are now expected before the end of July 2020.


Crankshaft

The engineering evaluation crankshafts are complete and are awaiting completion of the cylinder blocks for fit-check verification. For ease of manufacture, the factory asked and we agreed to change the drilling method from a single hole to cross-drilling. Although this is not our crankshaft, the video shows how crankshafts are cross-drilled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZDCpWoZJV4 If you stop the video at 3:49, you will see the paths of the oil passages. The dead-ended passages will be plugged with setscrews so they can be removed to clean the passages.


Connecting Rods

The engineering evaluation connecting rods are complete and have been fit-checked to the crankshaft and wrist pin using the insert bearing and wrist pin that we provided.


Design Verification

We have been in contact with an engine rebuilder and parts supplier that has agreed to be a 3rd party evaluator to verify the design by assembling a short block with parts that we supply, and then assemble a complete engine with some new and mostly used parts that he supplies.

We are planning to have the new engine parts air-shipped from China and delivered to the 3rd party evaluator's business location and we are excited to see what arrives. This will be our first opportunity to visually see the new engine parts.

The new engine parts will be cosmetically compared to original parts, and dimensionally measured to confirm that all interfaces are a match to Ford drawings for attaching parts. Any discrepancies found will be documented so they can be corrected before the production run.

We have asked the 3rd party evaluator to build a "touring engine" that utilizes mostly stock parts but uses a high compression head and lightened flywheel. Along with the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods, we will supply a Stipe 5 bearing camshaft, a modified Model A oil pump, and a Stipe oil pump.

Our findings and assessment during the evaluation will be published as posts to FordBarn which is so much easier than sending hundreds of Emails. The FordBarn thread regarding the new engine and where we will post our findings is here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782

After assembly of the new engine, it will be run on a test stand at a high RPM for a length of time, and then installed in a car that will be driven in hill climbs at WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Next, the engine will be plumbed to utilize an oil filter and again run on the test stand. After all testing, the engine will be disassembled and all moving parts will be inspected for wear. If we agree that the design is valid, we will authorize production.



Next Update and Other Comments


If all goes well and there are no major changes resulting from engineering evaluation, we will authorize production and should have parts in stock and for sale sometime in September 2020.

We have set a discounted introductory price of $3500 for 60 days that will include a cylinder block with main caps, thrust washers, camshaft bearings and all dowel pins installed, main cap studs and nuts, connecting rods with wrist pin bushings and dowel pins installed along with fasteners, and a crankshaft with dowel pins and Woodruff key installed. Dealer pricing for quantities of 5 will be less. After the 60-day introductory price, we are planning to sell exclusively through dealers (parts retailers and machine shops) that order 5 or more at a time. The start date for the 60 days introductory price has not been set.

I'm the engineer on this project. The other team members are John Lampl who is responsible for manufacturing, quality assurance, transportation, customs, and pricing, William Percival who is our bean counter and computer guru, and Leonard Nettles who is responsible for receiving orders and shipping parts.

After the engineering evaluation parts pass our appearance and testing requirements, the production order will be placed and information regarding how to contact John, William, and Leonard will be published to the people on the Email list, Ford Barn, all MARC and MAFCA chapters, and parts retailers and machine shops.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

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Last edited by wrpercival; 07-16-2020 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:40 PM   #141
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Whenever I post an update to this project, my mailbox fills up with questions, comments, and interesting stories. Here are a few, and there are more to come.

I have been following your project, but think I am not on a list to be informed as soon as ordering is possible. I am old enough to want to get your block crank and rods as soon as possible. Who knows what tomorrow may bring. I would like to buy directly, but would be okay going through a dealer if that would get me the product and a complete block faster. I was following Todís efforts to cast a new block, but you seem to be far ahead, and as a SF Bay Area guy I would prefer to have the motor done locally. Machinists are hard to find who specialize in Model Aís, but as your design is internally more modern, I may be able to use a local Burlingame automotive machinist who seems to do quality work.
Please put me on the mailing list to get ordering information as soon as you are ready to start taking orders and deposits.
Thanks, Russ

Russ, there is no list at this time. We have nothing to sell until the new engine engineering evaluation parts successfully pass our evaluation. The introductory price for a limited time will be $3500 per set of parts (cylinder block, crankshaft and connecting rods including all fasteners, dowel pins, and bushings).
Dealers who order 5 sets or more at a time will receive a further discount.
Once we have something to sell, people on the Email list, all MAFCA and MARC chapters, and internet forums will be notified.





Why reinvent the wheel? Skat can make the crankshaft and rods and they are already drilled for pressure oil. It seems to me to be a much cheaper way to go. I have worked with and used Skat products for quite a while and their quality is top notch and their suppliers are reliable and cost effective. After reading from start of this project to this email, it seems to me your vendors have been suspect in a number of areas to say the least. I will tell you that many Chinese vendors will tell you one thing and deliver totally different spec. For example, a company I am very familure spec'td a hi end bike carrier for expensive off road mountain bikes. After delivering a number of these expensive racks, customers began filing claims as their bikes were falling off of car. Even though the spec was totally clear and the Chinese factory and manager signed off, he decided to use grade 2 bolts instead of the grade 8 that was called for. The bouncing of the car and bikes broke the grade 2 bolts and the vertical bike support fell into the road and the car following ran over and smashed the bikes. When the company contacted the factory seems no one took responsibility, and tried to blame it on the bolt supplier. It put the company out of business due to the claims with no one in China stepping up to take responsibility. The moral is don't believe a word they say period. Incidentally the Chinese shipped about 25 racks for inspection and guess what they had the spec'td grade 8 bolts. Good luck with your project I can see lots of down stream issues with their steel quality and fasteners, so I opt out and pass, just give me a henry block and a quality Skat crank and rods. Just by sheer number of cranks that Skat buys in China they ain't gonna screw with them. Skat has 30 crank grinders going all day long and they supply a lot of major manufacturers. In your case maybe 50 cranks and blocks if you are lucky. . Howard



Howard, Thanks for your comments and the "hi end" bike rack story.

I like SCAT products.

SCAT makes crankshafts for Model T, Model A, Model B, and 4 cylinder Chevrolet engines. I have met in person with Tom Leib, owner of SCAT and we had a long conversation about crankshafts.

The crankshafts for the above engines are all made from a "Fits-All" forging from India that is machined in California. The "Fits-All" forging is a compromise for any of the engines listed above and the rod journals cannot be machined for Model B connecting rods because there is not enough material on the forging.

The "New Model A Engine" has a crankshaft with 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and 4 connecting rod bearings that are all 2 inches in diameter. The corresponding SCAT crankshaft for a Model A engine has 3 main bearings, 4 counterweights, and 4 connecting rod bearings that are 1.5 inch diameter.

Regarding your comment "After reading from start of this project to this email, it seems to me your vendors have been suspect in a number of areas to say the least.". Thank you for following this project from the beginning. The only vendor that I spent money to perform in the past was Lodi Iron Works. They had no quality control, and refused to follow a procedure even when I wrote it like a Ikea or Lego manual without words for the assembly of cores, and this is why the project stalled. We are now working with factories in China that have good quality control and specialize in making OEM engines for many manufacturers.

Regarding the "hi end" bike racks and the Grade 8 bolt problem, all high strength bolts have marks on their head to indicate strength. Low strength bolts like grade 2 have no markings. Did the bolts that failed have head markings? Did the bike rack company that imported the racks have any Quality Assurance personnel that inspected bolt heads? Did the installation instructions specify a torque value for the bolts? Any of the above questions could have prevented the problem. China is not a big fastener manufacturer, and our fasteners for the new engine will come from factories in South Korea that specialize in making high strength fasteners. Our builders guide will specify torque values for the fasteners and any low strength fastener will fail during engine assembly.

Regarding your comment "Good luck with your project I can see lots of down stream issues with their steel quality and fasteners, so I opt out and pass, just give me a henry block and a quality Skat crank and rods." Thanks for wishing us good luck with this project and I am sorry to see that you are not interested and want to "opt out". The new Model A engine is utilizing materials and processes that are used in modern engines by companies that specialize in building engines. I am confident that we won't have the fastener problems that you experienced. I also want to wish you the best of luck in your choice to use an original "Henry" 3 main block with a SCAT 3 main "Fits-All" crankshaft.








Hi Terry,
Sounds like this project is coming right along
I have a few questions
1. does the engine come with all the main bearings and rod bearings?
2. Is this going to end up as a 3 or 5 main engine?
3. What do you expect the dealer prices to be on 5 sets?
What pistons with the engine be setup to use?Thanks for your time
I will be interested to possibly being a central USA dealer for these
Eric


1) The only bearings being supplied are the thrust washers. All other bearing are MAHLE part number CB745P (trimetal) and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors. The first usage was in the 1955 265 cubic inch V-8, and the last usage was in the 2.0 liter 4 cylinder OHV that was made in 2003. Both the main and connecting rod journals are the same at 2 inch diameter. The price for a pair of inserts including postage can be less than $3 for a pair. 12 pairs of inserts are required for the new engine. Check out Ebay #281494310467. Other manufacturers also make this insert.
2) 5 mains
3) I'll have John Lampl contact you regarding Dealer pricing.
Regarding pistons, all interfaces on the new engine are identical a to stock Model A. If any part fits a Model A engine, that same part will fit the new engine.





Thank you. I truly enjoy the project and pleased to be one of your first sales orders when you are confident George

George, Thanks for the kind words. At this stage in the project, I don't see anything major that can go wrong.





Terry, first I would like to commend you for your commitment to this project. I have been following it more or less since you started and I realize the magnitude of your undertaking.
I am very interested in an introductory engine to put in my 1929 dirt track race car with a Riley 2 port head. I do have a couple of questions.
Does the 60 day introductory price include a complete short block with the 2 oil pumps you mentioned?
Is the grind of the camshaft a mirror the Model A, is it ground more like a Model B, or is it some other grind?
Thank you, Bob


Bob, we are not supplying a complete short block. We are only supplying a cylinder block, crankshaft, and a set of connecting rods that are ready to assemble. You get to choose pistons, rings, valve train, and all other parts needed to build an engine. With your Riley head, you will need a special camshaft ground that is compatible with your rocker arm ratio.






Terry, thanks for the update but I refuse to visit the haterbarn for my information, so keep the email updates coming or post the updates on the ford vintage. I know yo are a member there too. azzclone

azzclone, Thanks for your comments.
The thread on FordBarn is very long with over 26,000 views, and that is why I post there.
If you read the FordBarn post from the start, there is a story about how this dead project was revived. The story is not on the ford vintage or the Ahooga Forum.
Are you one of the people that are banned from FordBarn?
I accidentally got banned from the ford vintage and was banned from seeing posts. I contacted Steve Plucker and he contacted Mitch who reinstated me.
If you can't see the posts on FordBarn, please let me know and I'll post also on the ford vintage.
I will continue to send Email updates until this project either succeeds, or comes to a halt as it did when Lodi Iron Works could not deliver as promised.





Terry, Thank you for your update and great to hear of the progress being made.
I really look forward to hearing the results of your validation testing and trust that the amount of time you and your team have taken to develop the engine will prove to be a success. Please put me on the list to be able to purchase the block/crank, rods, caps, etc. once they are available for sale.
In reviewing your webpage is it still your intention to follow through and have the 22 pound flywheels built?
Stay safe, Regards, Bob


Bob, Our next project will be the flywheel. I have a SolidWorks design that is on hold until we validate the new engine parts and authorize production.





Thanks Terry for the update. This is great news, looking forward get the new parts.
Lance, God Bless America, Sent from my iPad

Lance, thanks for your comment and God bless America in these troubled times.




Looking forward to the release date for purchase! John

Me too. If all goes well, we should have parts for sale in September 2020.




Thank you. I truly enjoy the project and pleased to be one of your first sales orders when you are confident George

George, Thanks for your comment.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:45 PM   #142
Lee Stohr
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi guys, I am new on this group, but I have been following Terry's work for many years. I actually visited him in California long ago when he was starting this project. I'm very glad to see that it is nearing completion, the design looks really good, as you would expect from someone with his skills.

I have been reading the thread, and I see comments about how we can't cast engine blocks in the USA, we've lost the skills, labor costs are going up in China (according to the Apple CEO) etc. I beg to disagree. I am getting the following engine blocks made here in the USA, in Michigan: Bugatti Type 57, Miller 122, 1907 Pierce Arrow, 1909 Christie. We've actually sold & shipped Bugatti blocks to Europe. It's expensive to work in the USA, for a lot of reasons we don't need to get into here on a car forum. But the skills and foundry's are here. I'm certainly not alone, guys like Tod B. make me feel like an amateur.

Anyway, I apologize, this is not my thread, so I'll leave it there. I do look forward to watching the completion of Terry's work.
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Old 07-29-2020, 06:11 PM   #143
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi guys, I am new on this group, but I have been following Terry's work for many years. I actually visited him in California long ago when he was starting this project. I'm very glad to see that it is nearing completion, the design looks really good, as you would expect from someone with his skills.

I have been reading the thread, and I see comments about how we can't cast engine blocks in the USA, we've lost the skills, labor costs are going up in China (according to the Apple CEO) etc. I beg to disagree. I am getting the following engine blocks made here in the USA, in Michigan: Bugatti Type 57, Miller 122, 1907 Pierce Arrow, 1909 Christie. We've actually sold & shipped Bugatti blocks to Europe. It's expensive to work in the USA, for a lot of reasons we don't need to get into here on a car forum. But the skills and foundry's are here. I'm certainly not alone, guys like Tod B. make me feel like an amateur.

Anyway, I apologize, this is not my thread, so I'll leave it there. I do look forward to watching the completion of Terry's work.




Lee, It's good to hear from you. Thanks for joining FordBarn and reading the thread. The New Model A engine project has been an adventure.

We have accomplished more in the last year in China than I did in the many years working with Lodi Iron Works. I too, have been following your Christie project and am amazed on how you are creating SolidWorks models from the patent drawings and photographs.

Are you using the foundry in Michigan that cast the new Model T cylinder blocks for Ford's centennial celebration in 2003? When it was becoming evident that Lodi Iron Works was not able to perform, I spoke with that foundry in Michigan over the phone and they seemed very capable. I also spoke with other foundries in the Midwest, and several sounded like they were capable. The biggest problem was tooling. As a general rule, any foundry will only guarantee good castings if their pattern shop makes the patterns and core boxes.

I contacted Tod B. when I pulled the tooling from Lodi Iron Works, and he was not interested in working with me. Our Email exchange is documented somewhere in the thread.

I have only seen photographs of the parts being made in China, and they look good. Due to covid19, we won't physically be able to see the parts until they arrive at our 3rd party evaluator.

I know that that the new Model A engine (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods) could be produced in the USA, but it would have to be the Midwest and the cost would be prohibitive for the average Model A enthusiast.

Our engine projects are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. You are working with people that have deep pockets and are making just a few castings that are unobtainable, whereas we are working with people that have shallow pockets, original castings that are available, but not the best design and worn, and many new machined castings and forgings at a time.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:29 AM   #144
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Schedule update: John Lampl just spoke with the factory in China. All engineering evaluation parts are scheduled to ship on Aug 10, 2020. They will be Fed-Ex air-shipped, need to clear customs, and then will be ground shipped to our 3rd party evaluator. Arrival date at the 3rd party evaluator is expected to be between Aug. 14 and 17, 2020.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:46 PM   #145
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi Terry,
Great to hear from you. Thanks for the kind words on the Christie project.
I do not know what foundry cast the Ford centennial blocks, but I currently use Northfield foundry. As you say, the tooling design is very important. I design my own molds and I go to great lengths to make the foundry's job as easy as possible. I think that reduces the scrap rate. We have been very lucky and the first casting of each new block has been good.
I do not know any foundry that gives a written guarantee, even if they make the patterns. I have been fortunate to work on some higher end cars, but it doesn't matter to the foundry if it's 4 cylinder Ford or a 4 cylinder Miller block. (two blocks make a straight eight Miller). I do use 3D printed cores, because my quantities are not high, so I don't spend money on permanent core boxes. I can do some interesting things with printed cores, and change them anytime I want with a few strokes on the computer.
Anyway, I can't wait to see your new parts in August!
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Old 08-03-2020, 02:53 PM   #146
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Lee, Thanks for your comments.

The foundry that you are using, Northfield Manufacturing in Westland, MI. (www.northfieldfoundry.com) is the foundry that cast the 2003 Ford Model T centennial cylinder blocks, and one that I contacted and felt that they were capable. They have also cast Maxwell cylinders for an acquaintance of mine and Charlie Yapp from "Secrets of Speed" has used them.

3-D mold printing machines are amazing. There is no need for draft, and even reverse draft is allowable. The cores and mold including cope, drag, sprues, runners, and vents are all printed as a single entity and are ready for pouring. There are no parting lines.

Before I decided to use Lodi Iron Works, I visited a foundry at the repurposed McClellan Air Force Base near Sacramento that was set up for the "Casting Emission Reduction Program". This foundry had an automated casting line from Ford Motor Company for an obsolete 4 cylinder engine. The foundry was trying different core binders and measuring the resulting emissions for each different core binder. They had a mold printing machine and they quoted a price of $2500 to mold a Model A Ford cylinder block. Lodi's quote was $800 for the same cylinder block using patterns and core boxes..

If the choice were to procure a printed mold cylinder block and add the cost of main caps, machining of the cylinder block, forging and machining connecting rods, and the cost of a 5 main crankshaft, the cost becomes prohibitive for the Model A enthusiast.

Our introductory price of $3500 includes a fully machined cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods that are ready for assembly, and close to the cost of a quality rebuild.
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Old 08-04-2020, 02:00 PM   #147
motordr
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, my son and I canít wait to get our hands on this new engine! Ted
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Old 08-05-2020, 09:25 PM   #148
Lee Stohr
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

That's an incredible introductory price! I almost want one, even though I have no idea what I'd do with it
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:52 PM   #149
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by motordr View Post
Terry, my son and I canít wait to get our hands on this new engine! Ted
Yes, we definitely are!

I have a question about finish machining.

Will the cylinder bores be finish honed or just bored and then need a final hone? Valve seats as well, will they have seats inserted? Will they have any angle(s) on them upon arrival? Valve guide bores will be ready to accept the factory sized guides of my choice?

I have the machines for this, I'm just looking to get the ball rolling on some pricing for inquiring potential customers.

Thanks again Terry and co. I am patiently awaiting pictures of the engines when they get here in a few days!

Theo
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