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Old 05-30-2020, 01:52 AM   #101
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

If I recall correctly, when I spoke with Tom, the owner of Scat some years ago, the forgings were made in India and shipped to California for machining. The forging is generic and can be machined to become a Chevy crankshaft, Model A crankshaft, or Model B crankshaft. There is not enough material on the forging to accommodate the Model B connecting rod diameter, so Model B crankshafts have Model A (1.50-inch diameter) connecting rod journals.
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:49 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
a dry-sump inverted Model B Ford engine
I can see where a designed inverted engine like for the Bf-109 would handle the oil in the crankcase, but what they did to convert the B engine would be very interesting.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:04 PM   #103
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Many people respond to my Email account with comments, questions, and concerns. Posted below are some of those Emails that have been sanitized to remove Email addresses and last names.

Hello Terry
Very interested in your project and great to hear it is back on track in light of the covid situation. Being that I have a oilfield manufacturing plant in China I have a little experience with the current situation. I would certainly be interested in purchasing the block, crank, main caps and rods once you are in production. It certainly appears that you have done your due diligence in sourcing a suitable company for producing the castings, forgings and machining in china. As I am sure you have seen there are companies there that claim to follow certain quality control procedures and other that actually do perform them. Having lived there for a few years when I set up my plant I gained, what I feel is some good insight on how the production and engineering people think and work.
I will follow your project online and look forward to seeing your updates on this project, and hopefully of seeing it being commercially ready in the near distance future.
Bob

Bob, The factories that we are using in China are state of the art and produce engines for American, European, Japanese, along with their own automobiles. The improved Model A engine was something new to them because "L" head engines haven't been made in the last 60 years. The factories in China are ISO certified and when the dimensions on the Ford drawings were converted to metric on their drawings, all metric dimensions have a smaller tolerance range. Modern engines run at a higher RPM and balancing needs to be more precise than a lower RPM engine like a Model A. The factories will balance to modern standards which is a bonus.





I don't think I could put a motor partly built in china in my Model A. I enjoy reading your article's. Charles

Charles, Thanks for your comment. The world has changed and is now a global economy. I live in Silicon Valley which is just south of San Francisco. In WW2, we had many shipyards, foundries, huge machine shops and everything else to support the war effort. Today that is all gone. We import steel from China for projects like the new bridge between San Francisco and Oakland, skyscrapers, the new transit center in San Francisco, and almost every big project. I don't think that you can rebuild a Model A engine using parts from suppliers that don't come from China.





Terry:
Thanks so much for this exciting update! I have been following this project since its early days and really look forward to seein one of these on a dyno.
Be and do well
Dana

For dyno runs with various combinations of speed equipment, see Piranios https://www.modelaparts.net/
Dyno tests are short in duration. Our target market is for people that want an engine that will run for a length of time at high RPM. Our plan for testing includes running at high RPM on a test stand for a length of time and then installing the engine in a car to do hill climbs. With 5 main bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and 2 inch diameter rod and main bearings, I would guess that the new Model A engine would perform similar to any of Piranios results with a much longer life.

Dear Terry:
Agreed, the Dyno is a short test. However it is used to learn about horsepower. Longevity is certainly what most people will be looking for in this engine. However horsepower is still an interesting metric to have in your pocket, just for comparison sake.
When I was in the AF, I had a 31 Coupe that was in such bad shape I had to get down to 1st gear coming home to Vandenberg AFB from Santa Maria (I don’t know the hill statistics, but the last one was a pretty good grade). I finally did the engine and was shocked at my ability to zip up that hill in third gear with ease. I realize that doesn’t compare to this situation but it does illustrate the value of a few extra ponies. I Believe the OEM horsepower on that engine was something like about 50Hp. That was such a fun car for a young GI.
You mention hill climbs. Clearly you are well studied in this area, how ever for those who have only a passing acquaintance with the is little machine, the Model A break system is mechanical, even in top shape this is not a car to go zipping up or down hills without some awareness of its limitations. This is, by the way, why (again for those following who aren’t aware) one sees so many Model As rolling around on Model B rims. At some point someone has upgraded to “juice” brakes and they wouldn’t fit behind the Model A drums.
All that said, this is a tremendously fun little machine to own.
Once again, best of luck. This is an exciting little project to watch.

Dana, Thanks again for your comments. We want an engine built like the majority of rebuilt engines. The engine builder that we will be working with has a used high compression head that looks stock that we will be using. He also has a coupe that is capable of hill climbing. As an independent evaluator, we will have him do the testing including hill climbing as we take pictures and videos. With 5 main bearings, larger diameter main and rod bearings, and zero fatigue cycles on all parts, the bottom end should not fly apart at high RPM. First and second gear will be used for braking in decents.





Fabulous! I have the funds set aside for an engine........Andy

Andy, thanks for your comment. Our goal is to provide the new engine parts at a cost that is comparable with the cost of a rebuilt stock engine.





very interested in your project. If you have a list of potential customers that would purchase a complete motor for installation and testing put me on the list!. I have an original 29 roadster that is destined for racing events. John

John, We have no list yet and are not supplying a complete engine. We are only supplying a new 5 main cylinder block, a 5 main crankshaft, and connecting rods. You get to choose pistons, valve train, camshaft, and timing gears.






I am about to build a Model A engine using a Skat counterbalanced crankshaft and all insert bearings. After seeing this proposed "new" engine I think maybe the cost of the "new" engine might be comparable and the new engine would be much better. I will be interested in watching progress and cost. Ronald

Ronald, The proposed "new" engine is almost reality. If the schedule doesn't change, parts, assembly, and testing will be completed in July 2020. We are well aware that cost is an important factor.






Thanks for doing this it is much needed and appreciated by fellow Model A enthusiasts. I hope it keeps moving forward. Sam

Sam, Thanks






Hi
Very interested in one of these blocks, cranks and rods. I was about to have to have my original block machined and fit a new crank and rods so replacing the lot would be an exellent way to go. Good luck with this and please keep me updated.
Thanks Rod


Rod, Thanks for considering the new engine.






Thank you for taking on this massive project. As the availability of rebuildable blocks becomes scarce, it is comforting to know that your efforts will allow this hobby and the preservation of history to go on for many years to come.
Keep up the "steam" and continue to forge ahead with this project. Paul

Paul, Thanks




Hi Terry, I am very interested in this project! I am a 45 year member of MAFCA in Beamsville Ontario Canada. I operated a Babbitt in hand and engine rebuild business for 32 years on a part time basis, while full time teaching millwright at Mohawk College. My son Theo now runs the engine business full time, “ Around the block engines”
Please keep me posted on your progress.
Thanks, Ted

Ted, The next update will include the results of assembly and testing and any problems.








TERRY...
Looks like you have 13 years out of your life on this project. As they say, "Keep the Faith, Baby!" I read your progress reports with great interest and admiration for the professionalism and certainly hope the effort will be repaid with many orders for your new Model A engines. I'd like to buy one, and I don't even need it. Rich

Rich, Since you don't need it, you could use it as a display piece in your man-cave, and if you need to get rid of it, someone would be happy to buy.







Hi Terry,
Just wondering, will the block take adjustable lifters as it comes or do we machine that when we get it?
Sounds pretty good. I figured we would lose several months because of the virus. Thanks, Kerry

Kerry,
The new cylinder block will be machined to Ford drawing A-6015 so that all interfaces are identical to Model A. There is no measuring of an old cylinder block to reverse engineer dimensions. In other words, if a part fits an original cylinder block, then it will fit the new cylinder block.
Some people like to use the adjustable lifters with a locknut and they sometimes machine the top of the lifter bodies shorter for better wrench access. The lifter bodies will be the stock height on the new cylinder block.





Excellent progress ,The patterns and coreboxes are looking good, just like my days at Chrysler Australia. Well Done you two!!! Warwick

Thanks for the compliment. We are using factories that are automated and specialize in the manufacture of engines. I assume that you worked at the factory in Lonsdale that closed in 1980.

Thanks Terry, You are spot on .Yes I worked at Lonsdale, 1st as metal patternmaker in the grey iron foundry, then in the alloy foundry as a quality analyst.By this time Chrysler had sold the plant to Mitsubishi. I retired in 2000 just before it closed. With 20years around casting I know how much work is involved in all the aspects of the process. I am following your progress because I am a Model A enthusiast and look forward to fitting one of your engines.
Good Luck with your progress,All The Best ..Warwick






Thanks for the update Terry!!
With everything going on in the world I thought thing would be set things back until the end of the year. This is great news!! Looking forward to the next update. Hope all is well with you and your family.
Stay well and thanks for all your hard work. The turtle always end up winning the race. Slow but steady.
Take care. Steve

Steve, When Covid19 hit, my thoughts were the same. I'm amazed and happy that Covid19 had little impact on this project. The team (John, Leonard, Bill, and I) along with our families are all well.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:51 AM   #104
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Terry, like many others, my mouth is watering with anticipation of getting my hands on one of your "A" assemblies. I can sense an anticipation of the opportunity to purchase one, but fear the demand be so high that availability could be significantly long. We all want to beat each other to the punch so to speak. Do you have a plan formed for how priority takes place? Will volume meet demand any time soon?
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:46 PM   #105
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Terry's new engine configuration will fill the 'gap' by the loss of guys like Herm Kohnke who's talents sadly are getting quite difficult to replicate.

Properly rebuilding a '90 year old engine' from a Model A Ford isn't w/o a lot of cost and even then you may be part way thru the build and discover you have a bad block and have to start all over. And finally when you are done, you have a freshened up, 90 year old.............. block/engine.

Thank you from all Model A Ford enthusiasts on this venture that you have been working so hard at This is THE best thread on FB
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:35 AM   #106
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Russ/40
If appearance, dimensional checks, assembly, and testing go well, we will authorize production and get on their production schedule.
We will publish the results of the evaluation along with many pictures so that readers can study the results and make an informed decision before placing an order.
Once production starts, it will go fast.
The factories that we are using make OEM parts, so they understand production.
Once production begins, we will publish pricing and ordering instructions here on FordBarn, the Email list, and to local clubs belonging to MARC and MAFCA.
Leonard, one of our team members will be handling distribution.


Jeff/Illinois
Thanks for the compliment.
Engine rebuilding machinery index on previously machined surfaces.
One of the big challenges with rebuilding a 90-year-old block is that the machined surfaces used to index from may have been mss-machined in the past.
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:02 PM   #107
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Terry, this awesome work you are doing. Thanks for not giving up! Looking forward to getting one. Ted
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:00 PM   #108
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Pasted below are a few additional comments received.



I appreciate your dedication to this project, Terry, under rather extreme circumstances. I’m in Southern Ontario, Canada, and am patiently awaiting the end of this Covid 19 threat. Cheers! Al

Al, Thanks for the complement. I'm glad that Covid19 had a minimal impact on progress.





Terry
this has been fascinating following the progress and setbacks throughout the entire process. Thank you for sticking with it. You are a very determined man. I look forward to the day when I can run one of these.
Pat

Pat, It's been a long journey and I look forward to the end.







Dear Terry ,
Thank you very much for your update.
A view questions.

1. Will the machining off the engine Block be done in China or the US ??
2. We have a full programm ready for a Haas CNC machine to machine the engine Blocks .Only line boring willl be done by conventional machining.
3. It looks like the botthem of the engine (connection tot he oilpan is to thin for machining)
4. How many material is added for machining
5. We have experience with 3d engineeering , casting and machining of engine blocks let me know if it is possible to send us an casted block for inspection.
6. Is it possible to do the same here with assembling and testing we have the experience

Will send you videoo of engines we have done .
Prepared to help to improve the project with experience and quality machining.
Friendly regards,
Hans


Hans,
1) Machining will be done in China.
2) China will provide a cylinder block that is line bored and ready for assembly. They will also supply the fully machined crankshaft and connecting rods.
3) The bottom of the raw casting has .10 inch of material that needs to be removed during machining.
4) All machined surfaces have an extra .10 inch that is removed during machining.
5) We have not requested un-machined castings. Machining a raw casting would require several unique fixtures.
6) For a second evaluation of the design, we would be happy for you to do the assembly and testing of an engine.


Dear Terry,
Thank you for answering me .
The fixtures are available no problem.
We would love to get started with the new castings and testing and distribute the engines Europe wide.
I Think the best way would be shipping the engines directly to Europe to avoid extra shipping costs and custom charges.
I am open to for support and suggestions from your side.
Friendly regards,
Hans


Hans,
I am the engineer on this project.
Before production, we need to evaluate the new engine parts. The May 2020 update addressed what we are planning to do for "Design Verification" before we authorize production.
Un-machined castings and forgings will not be available.
All parts will be machined in China in factories that specialize in making cylinder blocks, crankshafts, and connecting rods. Part of the final inspection process for the cylinder block will be to pressurize the water jacket to make sure that it has no porosity after machining.
The only machining that may be needed to the parts that we are supplying is to ensure that the piston to wall clearance is adequate. Original pistons were split skirt and clearance could be .002 inch. If you are using solid skirt pistons, the clearance should be .004 inch.
John Lampl, another team member, is responsible for manufacturing, quality control, and transportation.
John and I talked about you becoming our distributor in Europe and how the parts would be shipped directly to you to avoid paying customs and other fees twice.
I have cc'd John in this Email.


Dear Terry,
Thank you very much fort his clear info!!
We will wait patiently.
Friendly regards, Hans








I am interested in the progress and testing of the engine with the possibility of purchasing one in the future depending on test results, compatibility with vintage Ford external components, and cost. This is an exciting idea and I hope it succeeds. I am skeptical given the quality and fit of many reproduction parts which that we encounter these days. Given the attention to detail and length of time that is detailed on the website, I hope this is a success. Jeff

Jeff,
Thanks for your comments. I am a manufacturer of Model A parts that pass judging at MARC and MAFCA events. Don't be skeptical. If the parts from China don't meet our requirements, they will not be offered for sale.







Hey Terry,
Wow, exciting indeed , after all these years!!
How do I go about getting on your list to purchase one or more of your engines ?
Thanks for your perseverance in your/our dream.
Rick

Rick,
The last time that we spoke was at the MARC convention in San Diego in 2011.
Before we sell any parts, they need to pass a visual inspection, a mechanical inspection to ensure that all interfaces meet the tolerances on Ford drawings, run-in testing at high RPM, and hill climbing. We are planning to offer a discount to parts dealers, machine shops, and others who purchase 5 or more at a time. Once testing is complete and authorization for the production run is given, I will post the Email address where people can order parts.





Hi
I have wrote this before. In the Great USA there must be a foundry that could use the business ,and not send it to China ! I am a Canadian and I want the money to go to America’s
Stephen


Stephen, I spent 8 years (2007 to 2015) and several thousands of dollars attempting to have these engine parts manufactured in California. I also contacted numerous foundries in the mid-west and none were interested in a casting with multiple cores. None of the foundries that I worked with and contacted had the machine shop capabilities to provide a ready to assemble cylinder block. The factory in China making the cylinder block has pattern makers, a foundry, machine shop, and will deliver a cylinder block that is ready for assembly. The factory in China only makes cylinder blocks. They don't make brake rotors, exhaust manifolds, fire hydrants, frying pans, or manhole covers.





Thanks for your continuous updates! Congratulations for a very professional and useful quest. It will be much appreciated and widely heralded in the Model A Community., Rich

Rich, Thanks for your comments.






The New model a engine, will it be babbit or press in bearings. Lloyd

The new engine will have pressed in bushings for the camshaft, and inserts for the main and connecting rod bearings.
The inserts are part number CB745P and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors.
Check out Ebayhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Rod-Bearing-Set-Fits-87-03-Buick-Chevrolet-Beretta-Cavalier-2-0L-L4-OHV-8v/281494310467 and click on "See Compatible Vehicles" to view a partial list of cars and trucks that used this insert.





Hi Terry,
Just wondering, will the block take adjustable lifters as it comes or do we machine that when we get it?
Sounds pretty good. I figured we would lose several months because of the virus.
Thanks, Kerry


Kerry,
The new cylinder block will be machined to Ford drawing A-6015 so that all interfaces are identical to Model A. There is no measuring of an old cylinder block to reverse engineer dimensions. In other words, if a part fits an original cylinder block, then it will fit the new cylinder block.
Some people like to use the adjustable lifters with a locknut and they sometimes machine the top of the lifter bodies shorter for better wrench access. The lifter bodies will be the stock height on the new cylinder block.







Terry:
Thanks for the update and the tooling photos. This has been a long journey for you, but a vacation of hope for the rest of us.
Thanks again, Kem


Kem,
It is good to hear from you.
I miss the days when you and I traveled to see Carl.







Terry,
Is the boss for the engine's serial number located correctly? Not sure by looking at the pictures. JM

Jim,
The serial number boss is in the correct position.
In the pictures, everything above the boss is sand cores that will support cores and provide venting.
The casting will have no iron above the serial number boss.
Compare the size and location of the serial number boss to the water inlet and things will look better.







I am sure Louie would really enjoy receiving your updates but he passed away 2 years ago on March 24, 2018. He always looked forward to your emails.

JoAnn,
Thanks for your Email.
I'm so sorry to hear about the passing of Louie in 2018 when this project was stalled.
Hopefully, he can look down and see it has been revived.
Our chapter (SCVC) of MAFCA has several members (both men and women) that have lost spouses, however, they remain active members and enjoy the camaraderie. I hope that you are in a similar situation.






Terry
Why the need for model A engines ? they are dime a dozen !
Carl

Carl,
Thank you for your comment.
You are on my Hotmail contact list because of your request.
You are very fortunate that you can buy Model A engines for less than a penny each.
You could make money by selling them to rebuilders that are looking for re-buildable cylinder blocks.
Please reply if you would like me to remove you from my Hotmail contacts list.
My free Hotmail account only allows me to send 300 updates to contacts in a 24 hour period, and I would like to thin the contact list.
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Old 06-07-2020, 08:32 PM   #109
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Carl, in my opinion and it doesn't account for much Model A blocks being a 'dime-a-dozen', well maybe and maybe not if you want a good one. As time goes by the good ones will get harder to find.

As a comparison, one thing for sure in the Ford Flathead world, good Flathead blocks are even harder to locate. As my dad told me in my youth (and he was a Ford man who owned many Flathead Fords new and used) 'There are two kinds of Flatheads. Those that have a cracked block and those that are GOING to have a cracked block.'

Model A's engines are easier to deal with than Flatheads and Terry's new block will continue this hobby for generations to come. They will make it a better hobby than what it is already, and for you guys that like to push a Model A to the limit you blow an engine huh so what let's build another one
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Old 06-07-2020, 09:50 PM   #110
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Carl, in my opinion and it doesn't account for much

Model A's engines are easier to deal with than Flatheads and Terry's new block will continue this hobby for generations to come. They will make it a better hobby than what it is already, and for you guys that like to push a Model A to the limit you blow an engine huh so what let's build another one
It may not be just that easy, at this point Vintage racing requires an authentic block. This block is not going to pass tech shed.

On issue that Donovan ran into was this, that is a hell for stout motor but cannot be used in competition.

I guess you could make application for a production status after a few thousand are made and sold maybe.

I hope this project is successful, John
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Old 06-09-2020, 09:34 AM   #111
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I note that Terry has gotten several questions along the lines of "Why give this business to China?" I think this quote from Apple CEO Tim Cook in 2017 shows exactly why:
Quote:
The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I'm not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low labor cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location, and the type of skill it is. The products we do require really advanced tooling...and the tooling skill is very deep [in China]. In the U.S. you could have a meeting of tooling engineers, and I'm not sure we could fill the room. In China you could fill multiple football fields.
You can read more about the difficulty of re-creating the US's manufacturing capacity here.
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Old 06-10-2020, 08:41 AM   #112
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Anyone have a guesstimate as to what the cost would be to the average Joe to purchase one of these blocks ready to assemble?
Also, what would the horsepower increase be?
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Old 06-10-2020, 09:27 AM   #113
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Russ/40
If appearance, dimensional checks, assembly, and testing go well, we will authorize production and get on their production schedule.
We will publish the results of the evaluation along with many pictures so that readers can study the results and make an informed decision before placing an order.
Once production starts, it will go fast.
The factories that we are using make OEM parts, so they understand production.
Once production begins, we will publish pricing and ordering instructions here on FordBarn, the Email list, and to local clubs belonging to MARC and MAFCA.
Leonard, one of our team members will be handling distribution.


Jeff/Illinois
Thanks for the compliment.
Engine rebuilding machinery index on previously machined surfaces.
One of the big challenges with rebuilding a 90-year-old block is that the machined surfaces used to index from may have been mss-machined in the past.
I would like to voltmeter to be a Beta tester on these new blocks/engines once production begins.
As I use my Model A as a "daily driver", logging 3-5K or more miles per year, and I am "not" an engineer I could provide a "real World" "average Joe" evaluation of performance, maintenance. and pros and cons of this new block to your main target consumer...the "average Joe"
This is a very thought provoking tread.

Grandpa always said..."You'll never know unless you ask"
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Old 06-11-2020, 01:17 AM   #114
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It may not be just that easy, at this point Vintage racing requires an authentic block. This block is not going to pass tech shed.
On issue that Donovan ran into was this, that is a hell for stout motor but cannot be used in competition.
I guess you could make application for a production status after a few thousand are made and sold maybe.
I hope this project is successful, John

John,
Thanks for your comments and words of encouragement.
The new engine is not intended for vintage racing, and nobody should cheat!!
The exterior of the new engine is identical to stock, so some disassembly is needed to confirm that the new engine isn't old. The easiest way to determine that it is not original would be to remove the oil filler tube and see if there is a web for a main bearing. If someone wants to cheat and new iron is needed to replace an original cylinder block, intermediate main bearing #2 could be removed from the new cylinder block. If 5 mains are wanted, a girdle could be fabricated to replace the missing main bearing. This would allow the new 5 main crankshaft with 8 counterweights and large bearings along with new connecting rods to be used. The next easiest way to determine that the new cylinder block is not original would be to remove the A-6017 Timing Gear Cover to see if there is a serial number and an oil passage plug that is not original.
What is the definition of an "authentic" block? Do the German G28T engines that were built as late as 1958 with full oil pressure and insert bearings qualify for vintage competition?
Regarding Donovan engines, I agree that they were stout, but they didn't look like a Model A engine when you got close, and many interfaces for attaching parts were different than stock Model A.



I note that Terry has gotten several questions along the lines of "Why give this business to China?" I think this quote from Apple CEO Tim Cook in 2017 shows exactly why:
Quote:
The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I'm not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low labor cost country many years ago. And that is not the reason to come to China from a supply point of view. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in one location, and the type of skill it is. The products we do require really advanced tooling...and the tooling skill is very deep [in China]. In the U.S. you could have a meeting of tooling engineers, and I'm not sure we could fill the room. In China you could fill multiple football fields.
You can read more about the difficulty of re-creating the US's manufacturing capacity here. alexiskia


Alexiskia,
Thanks for the quote from Tom Cook. He is absolutely correct. I tried to have the "new engine" manufactured in the USA for several years. All of the foundries that I worked with have no quality assurance when it comes to making and assembling cores, and they refuse to follow a procedure.


Anyone have a guesstimate as to what the cost would be to the average Joe to purchase one of these blocks ready to assemble?
Also, what would the horsepower increase be? Keith

Keith,
Even with the uncertainties regarding transportation, customs, and tariffs, the retail price will be close to the cost of a quality rebuild assuming that you have good parts for the rebuild which means that no valve seats, cylinder sleeves, Helicoils, or crack repair is needed. If you have $3 to $4 K to spend, you are fine.
The "new engine" is designed for reliability with a stiffer crankshaft having 8 counterweights and is supported with five 2 inch diameter main bearings, connecting rod journals that are 2 inch diameter instead of 1 1/2 inch, and many more improvements.
Horsepower depends on what add-on parts you choose to use. If you use all stock parts, HP will be 40. At the other extreme, if you choose to use a DOHC HAL head with dual Winfield D carburetors, or something similar, HP will be closer to 200.




I would like to voltmeter to be a Beta tester on these new blocks/engines once production begins.
As I use my Model A as a "daily driver", logging 3-5K or more miles per year, and I am "not" an engineer I could provide a "real World" "average Joe" evaluation of performance, maintenance. and pros and cons of this new block to your main target consumer...the "average Joe"
This is a very thought provoking tread. Keith

Keith, Thanks for your offer to voltmeter to be a Beta tester. This is either a new test to me, or something is wrong with spell check. If you have big fingers like me, I understand the problem.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:17 AM   #115
burner31
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"Voltmeter"? What the heck?
Since given the option of the problem, I would like to choose cause A, spell check (final answer)
Because it can't be my fat fingers or the fact that I'm getting old...could it?

Thank you for the response, the cost is well within most budgets but expected a HP increase using stock parts. but the 200 HP possibility blows my mind.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:36 AM   #116
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burner31 View Post
"Voltmeter"? What the heck?
Since given the option of the problem, I would like to choose cause A, spell check (final answer)
Because it can't be my fat fingers or the fact that I'm getting old...could it?

Thank you for the response, the cost is well within most budgets but expected a HP increase using stock parts. but the 200 HP possibility blows my mind.
Burner31,

yes, spelczek is your friend.............sometimes.

You should see what it takes to get to 300hp!!
This about 270 when dyno broke.

John
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:40 PM   #117
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

More comments, questions, and concerns.


Burner31,
yes, spelczek is your friend.............sometimes.
You should see what it takes to get to 300hp!!
This about 270 when dyno broke. John


John, Thanks for your reply. From your attached picture, I'm impressed that you were able to obtain 270 HP using a stock cylinder block in tension. If you were to cut a cylinder block in half horizontally through the valve chamber and cylinders, there is not very much area to accommodate tension loading. With that much HP, have you considered using exterior stay rods on both sides of the cylinder block that would be in tension and externally connect the head to the girdle to put the cylinder block in compression? Ask Google "Is cast iron stronger in compression or tension?"






Will complete engines be available? Leonard

Leonard, No, we are not in the engine building business. The only parts that we will provide are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and 4 connecting rods that are ready for assembly. You or your engine assembler can choose new or used stock or higher performance parts like pistons, camshaft, valve train, timing gears, head, oil pump, and everything else needed to make a complete engine that will perform and stay within your budget.






Hi Terry,
I know you folks are working hard to bring the dream into reality. As we get closer to production and a customer a build, I need to start ordering parts to assemble the new engine. I will not use any used parts except for the oil pan. If you made an engine parts list to complete your test engine, would you mind sharing?
One additional thought. I normally use gas that has no alcohol when possible. On extended trips mostly a 10% mixture is found. I put in hardened valve seats and modern valves so I can use either. Will I need to do this on the new block as well?
Thanks, Kerry

Kerry, Thanks for having faith in what we are doing.
I don't have a list of parts, but we are only making the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Everything else can be stock Ford or aftermarket if it has stock interfaces.
The new cylinder block has hard seats in the 4 exhaust ports. They are MAHLE part number 218-7535, and available in 2 over-sizes if ever needed.

Thanks Terry for specifying harden seats. New valves and we are good to go. No one could have done this except you. Thank you and your team for your dedication and tenacity. Kerry




Thanks for your efforts to get a “new Engine” for the Model A. If you still have an update list I would like to be added to it.
Thanks Frank

Frank, your Email address had been added to the update list.





HELLO,I OWN A 30 FORD BOATAILED SPEEDSTER SPECIAL, LOOKING FOR A MORE PERIOD CORRECT ENGINE. WHAT PRICE RANGE FOR THE PACKAGE,ETA,HOW DO YOU FEEL PERFORMANCE WILL COMPARE TO (DONAVNE D) RICHARD

Richard, Regarding "period correct". we have strived to provide a product that has an external appearance that is identical to an original Model A engine and will have all interfaces for bolt on parts identical to original.

The price range will be between $3K and $4K for the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. Exact pricing is dependent on tariffs, customs, transportation, and several other factors. We have firm prices from the factories that are manufacturing the first run of parts, however, those prices are subject to change with future orders.

Many people have been following this project since 2007 with encouraging comments, and we need to offer a discount to them so they will be able to buy 1 set of parts at close to the dealer price for a limited time.

From my observations of Donovan engines, they look good from about 30 feet away, but as you get closer, differences from stock become obvious, and a lot of interfaces for attaching parts are not stock.

Regarding performance, check out what Piaranios has done with stock cylinder blocks. https://automotiveamerican.com/2019/...d-engine-dyno/

Our new engine has an exterior appearance identical to stock, but with 5 main and 4 connecting rod bearings that are larger in diameter and 8 crankshaft counterweights, the new engine will have similar performance to what Piaranios tested, but have longer life due to larger bearings, 8 crankshaft counterweights, and less crankshaft flexing.







Hi Terry, I’ve been reading about all your good work from the UK, I’m keeping my fingers crossed the verification process goes to plan. Is there a possibility of shipping to the UK? Thank you, Anton

Anton, yes, we will ship to the UK or anywhere in the world. Do you have a dealer with the resources to buy 5 at a time? If so, we would like to ship from China directly to the UK to avoid you having to pay customs twice.







I am very interested in your project. Would be interested in the finished product. I am building a number of different heads. Cook, Roof, Rutherford, and Winfield. Always having difficulty locating good blocks.
Stay in touch and keep me up dated. Thank you...Kevin


Kevin, You and I have the same passion for speed equipment to enhance the performance of the Model A Ford engine, and I think that you will be happy with the parts that we will provide.
Good stock cylinder blocks and crankshafts are getting harder to find, and they are not the best design compared to newer engines.



Please add my name if you have a list, Gerald 256-310-6XXX

Gerald, You are on the Email list for updates. We don't have another list because we don't have a product to sell that has passed verification. If and when the "new engine" meets our approval, everyone on the Email list and MARC and MAFCA chapters will be notified. Leonard, one of our team members will be responsible to create a list and fulfill orders as they are received. Leonard's contact information will be published after the new engine passes verification and the factories in China are given the go-ahead for production.





As an engineer myself (electrical) I am very excited about this new design. If it reaches production then I would like to obtain one or more assemblies for trial use in my personal Model A's and for installation in customer vehicles. David

David, Thanks for your comments.




I am very interested in having a more reliable, Model A engine with more power. I want to be able to cruise on the hi-way with traffic at 70 mph and destroy my engine. If this engine gets completed, I would be interested in a long block, and knowing what to cost would be.
Thank you, and good luck in your adventure. Mike


Mike, I think that you meant to say "not destroy" instead of destroy. We plan to test the new engine at a high RPM on a test stand for a length of time to prove reliability, and then go hill climbing. An original Model A crankshaft has 3 main bearings that are 1 5/8 inch diameter, and connecting rod bearings that are 1 1/2 inch diameter and no counterweights. The new engine has 5 main bearings, 8 counterweights, and all bearing journals are 2-inch diameter, so it should be more reliable. For liability reasons, I cannot support your idea of keeping up with traffic at 70 MPH, just like I couldn't support the use of the new engine to power an airplane in an earlier post. We are supplying a new cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. You and/or your engine builder will choose all attaching parts (new or used) to build an engine. We are not short or long block engine builders.




The distance between main bearing bolts is 2 inches. how can you use a 2 inch main bearing without rubbing the bolts? Ralph

Ralph, Thanks for your question. To maintain the original external appearance for front and center main bearings, the new engine uses studs that are in the same location as the original main bolts. The upper portion of the studs are 1/2-20 UNF and use castellated nuts and cotter pins as original. These studs are reduced to 7/16 inch diameter where they pass through the cylinder block/main cap interface, and the main caps are retained with 7/16-20 UNF nuts. The nominal clearance between the 2-inch crankshaft journal and the 7/16 studs is .03125 inch.




Hi, I read your crankshaft section, but what do you mean with 100%. Is 100% with rod and pistons weight in calculated in the crankshaft counterweights?
I am from Norway not very good is technical english.
Regards, Bjornar

Bjornar, Your technical English is good. When I say 100%, the counterweights are sized to exert a downward force equal to the upward force of stopping the piston at TDC. In other words, there are no bending forces in the crankshaft from stopping the piston. Note in the article that the counterweights are almost 1/2 of a circle and the crankshaft weighs 90 pounds. I have since changed the design so that the counterweights are smaller and not 100%. Everything in engineering is a compromise and I made the change to lessen the mass of the crankshaft for faster acceleration. The crankshaft counterweights could be drilled opposite of the connecting rod journals and have tungsten added to get back to 100% if desired. In the equation, SE is the small end weight of the connecting rod including the weight of the piston, wrist pin, and rings.
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Old 06-17-2020, 05:03 PM   #118
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry this may be a stupid question, but will the new engine HAVE to run a filter?

I know it is better for the engine but I never liked the looks of a filter on a Model A. I don't mind just draining the oil every 500 miles not a big deal.

Thanks
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:20 PM   #119
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hi everyone,

Following are some recent progress photos of the blocks, crankshaft, and connecting rods.
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:21 PM   #120
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I don't recall hearing anything about the cam. Will we be on our own shopping for a cam, or will a stock A cam work with the 5 webs in the block?
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