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Old 06-19-2020, 09:54 PM   #121
johnneilson
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

You are correct in the observation of the block needing more support. Sorry, I cannot show the other side of this motor and any internals, you understand.

The parts look great, keep up the work, John
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Old 06-20-2020, 08:40 PM   #122
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will the new block have main studs instead of bolts and nuts?
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Old 06-21-2020, 02:15 PM   #123
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry this may be a stupid question, but will the new engine HAVE to run a filter?

I know it is better for the engine but I never liked the looks of a filter on a Model A. I don't mind just draining the oil every 500 miles not a big deal.

Thanks, Jeff



Jeff,

Thanks for your question. There are no stupid questions.

The answer is NO, a filter is not required and this will keep the exterior looking like the original. This no filter configuration is what we are planning to use for longevity and hill climb testing.

After the above testing is complete, we plan to reconfigure the engine to use an external oil filter and do additional testing on the run-in stand.

When using an external oil filter, a threaded dowel pin (McMaster Carr pull-out dowel pin #97355A401) needs to be installed in one of the internal oil passages. Oil will now exit the cylinder block where the 1/8 NPT plug is on the side of the cylinder block. The oil will flow to an external filter, and from the filter to the lower bolt of the timing gear inspection cover which needs to be drilled and tapped 1/8 NPT.
From the drilled bolt, internal passages connect to the main oil galley that runs full length of the cylinder block.

Whether you choose to use an oil filter or not, a higher volume oil pump is recommended. For testing, we will be using modified Model A oil pumps where the intake window is enlarged, the shaft has a reduced diameter between bushings and the exit holes are enlarged. In addition, an oil pump modified for an external oil filter needs the 2 upper slots filled to force all of the oil out at the 1/8 NPT plug fitting.







I know that production is close but any thoughts about drilling the back of the crank for two more flywheel mounting bolts? Or would it be possible to drill them later. Thanks, Richard
P.S. I can hardly wait to get one or two of you new engines!


Richard,
The new engine parts will have all original interfaces including the 2 dowel pins in the crankshaft flange.
Once received by buyers, the buyer is free to make modifications.
In mechanical design, dowel pins are used for precise location and to take shear loads.
I question the reason for wanting bolts instead of dowel pins. Dowel pins are stronger than bolts in shear and their precise diameter won't allow radial movement. Think about letting the 4 bolts do retention and let the 2 dowel pins take care of location and shear.





I don't recall hearing anything about the cam. Will we be on our own shopping for a cam, or will a stock A cam work with the 5 webs in the block? Russ


Russ,
You will get to choose the camshaft along with all the other parts. A 3 bearing camshaft will work. All 5 camshaft bushings in the new cylinder block have passages connected to the main oil galley. Bushings 1, 3, and 5 have holes that expose the oil passages. Camshaft bushings 2 and 4 have bushings that block the oil passages. If a 5 bearing camshaft is used, holes must be drilled in bushings 2 and 4 to connect with the oil passages.





Terry,
You are correct in the observation of the block needing more support. Sorry, I cannot show the other side of this motor and any internals, you understand.
The parts look great, keep up the work, John

John,
Thanks for the reply. I understand and could say with almost certainly what you are doing to get that horsepower and keeping a stock cylinder block intact. I won't comment.





Will the new block have main studs instead of bolts and nuts? DB

DB,
All 5 main bearing caps will be retained with studs and nuts.
Connecting rods will utilize bolts for retention.
All main and connecting rod caps will have 2 dowel pins each for location.
All hardware is UNF and UNC and 170KSI yield which is stronger than Grade 8.
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Old 06-24-2020, 10:27 PM   #124
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Schedule slip.

The machinery that was being used to manufacture the new engine cylinder block is temporarily being utilized to make locomotive cylinder heads. We were expecting delivery of the sample parts just after the 4th of July and now the schedule has slipped by 2 to 3 weeks. This schedule slip does not affect the crankshaft or connecting rods.

As part of the verification process in China, we have sent many parts (wristpin bushing, wristpin, bearing inserts, ratchet nut, front pulley, Woodruff key, crankshaft timing gear, valve guide, tappet, and several other parts) so they can be assembled and fit checked before shipment.
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Old 07-04-2020, 01:31 PM   #125
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

The delay due to machining locomotive cylinder heads is over and the new engine cylinder blocks are back to being machined. The connecting rods and crankshaft are complete and have been fit checked against one another. After the cylinder blocks are complete, there will be a fit check with the crankshaft, and then all parts will be air shipped and deliver to the 3rd party that will build, test, and evaluate the new engine. The engineering evaluation parts should arrive before the end of July 2020. John and I will be there and we are getting excited about seeing the parts for the first time. We will also document the build, assist where we can, and document the testing.

If all goes well and there are no changes, we should have parts in stock and for sale sometime in September. A firm introductory price has been set and it will be $3500 for a limited time. Dealers who buy 5 or more at a time will receive a further discount.

Pasted below are more comments and questions that were sent to the Email list at "model.a.engine@hotmail.com"







Like everyone else Iím curious about the price. Do you know when you will be accepting deposits? Thanks, Bill

Bill, we won't have a product to sell until it passes our engineering evaluation that includes appearance and performance testing. I'm the design engineer on this project, not the bean counter. We will accept orders and deposits after engineering evaluation, and where and how to place an order will be published to those on the Email list, FordBarn, MARC, MAFCA, and other places. We are not in the retail business, however, we will offer a discounted price of $3500 that is close to wholesale for a limited time to those that have followed this project since its beginning in 2007.






I would be interested in one of these casting sets (i.e. block, crankshaft, con rods, etc)
I would like to know a price estimate when you get that far.
Thanks very much!
Bill

Bill, The price will be $3500 for a limited time. Dealers who by 5 sets of parts at a time will receive a further discount.





I had a model A engine redone for around $2500.00. Will this new engine be priced around that amount? Moe

Moe, For a limited time after production begins, pricing will be $3500 for the new 5 main cylinder block, 5 main crankshaft with 8 counterweights, and 4 connecting rods. All of these parts will be made in China using factories that make many OEM parts for European, American, and Japanese automobile manufacturers.
I am curious regarding what you received with your $2500 rebuild. When I search the internet, rebuild costs for Model A engines are somewhat more than $2500 and even higher when extra work is needed to add crankshaft counterweights, balance the crankshaft and connecting rods, fix cracks, drill out broken studs to insert Helicoils, add valve seats, and install cylinder sleeves.
The factory in China that we are working with has multiple machining lines. Our order is small and will be utilizing the smallest machining line and that is why the price will be $3500.
If we were to place an order for 10,000 sets of parts, the order would be filled by using a machining line that is fully automated and the price for a set of parts would likely be close to half the cost of a $2500 rebuild.






Thank you for your continued interest in developing a replacement block and head for our Model A Vehicles.
Currently doing Frame Up on 1930 Closed Cab PU. Engine is tired and parts car (1928 Closed Cab) hasn't been torn down yet but I expect the same condition.
I would much rather start off with a new block and head before beginning the engine rebuild
Any communication will be sincerely appreciated. Don

Don, We are only making the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. New heads are available from other sources. After 90 years and multiple repairs and questionable rebuilds, it's a good idea to start over with fresh surfaces that are within drawing tolerances. Regarding communication, I've added you to the Email list. All Emails sent from the list are sent Bcc so there is no chance that someone else will see your Email address.







Re-engineering the Model A engine I find to be one of the most fascinating projects I've read about in years. I like my original stock engine, but I'm always concerned about it's health and have interest in internal modifications, but I don't particularly like to modify good usable antique parts. A new re-engineered engine I find completely appropriate for us that like to get out every chance we get to go cruising.in an "A" no matter how hot it gets in Texas. Very interested! Terry

Terry, I added your contact information to the Email list. Thanks for the kind words. The new Model A engine will appear completely stock on the exterior because the exterior of an original cylinder block was laser scanned to create a SolidWorks model that was used to make the foundry patterns. Internally, the new Model A engine will be technically close to the last "L" head engines produced around 1970. Metallurgy, heat treating, rolling all crankshaft fillets, and balancing will be similar to current production engines. The new engine parts include the cylinder block with caps, thrust bearings, dowel pins, and hardware to attach the main bearing caps, a crankshaft with dowel pins and Woodruff key, and 4 connecting rods with wrist pin bushings and bolts to fasten the caps. Everything else is stock Model A Ford and does not need modification. We do recommend a higher volume oil pump that can be aftermarket or a modified Model A Ford oil pump.






I am interested in building a new engine for my Tudor and would like to use your products when they are ready. I am not in any hurry as my engine is low mileage and runs great now. I like your concept and engineering and the options for different levels of performance and reliability. Don


Don, Thanks for your comments. If all goes well, we should have parts for sale sometime in September 2020.
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Old 07-04-2020, 06:19 PM   #126
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What will the approx HP be?
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:08 AM   #127
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

What ever you want to make.
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Old 07-05-2020, 07:12 AM   #128
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Dodge you are 100% correct. After I asked the question I said well, that was a very stupid question.
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Old 07-05-2020, 09:30 AM   #129
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Old31
Spell check bit you
You were asking how much hp could this be built to produce?

J
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:53 PM   #130
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Wow Terry, amazing stuff

Good for you!!!
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Old 07-05-2020, 05:13 PM   #131
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
Old31
Spell check bit you
You were asking how much hp could this be built to produce?

J
Nope, sorry, I was not that smart to ask the question that way.
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:53 AM   #132
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Maybe the question should be how much power can it handle. The weak link is usually the crank and this one looks pretty stout.
It would be fun to put a good overhead on it and see how it will RPM.
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:21 PM   #133
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Thank you for your very thorough description of the production process and what to expect in the final product.

From what I’ve read, all the machining will be done so the block will be ready For the engine builder to assemble the engine. I assume the buyer will have the option to use insert or Babbitt bearings. Is that correct?

David Serrano
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Old 07-07-2020, 04:35 PM   #134
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

From everything Terry has explained, if you want babbit bearings, your going to have to get that done as a custom project, as he has planed for all insert bearings. ( not included )

Cam bushings will be installed.
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:07 PM   #135
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Thanks Russ. It’s hard for this old brain to retain all that information.

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Old 07-08-2020, 12:33 PM   #136
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.

I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one.

Thank you
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Old 07-08-2020, 01:24 PM   #137
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
Terry,
Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.

I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one.

Thank you
It has been stated that the bearing inserts are Small Block Chevy. Probably one of the most popular engines ever made. Bearings available at any auto parts store.
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Old 07-08-2020, 04:28 PM   #138
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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It has been stated that the bearing inserts are Small Block Chevy. Probably one of the most popular engines ever made. Bearings available at any auto parts store.
Thanks Chris, I missed that. Dave
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:42 PM   #139
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, I used to get your email updates on the new engine, but don't any more. I have been following your updates with great interest and desire to purchase. In preparation for my order which just awaits your go ahead, please include my email address on your followers list so I will get the go ahead to order early. Thank you for your commitment to the project and the excitement you are bringing to our hobby. Russ/40


Russ, Thanks for letting me know that you are no longer receiving the updates by Email. I'm always trying to shorten the Email list. When I get a message that an Email was undeliverable for some reason, I delete that Email address from the list.
I see that you have 2 Email addresses and have added both to the list.





I also would be interested in the new blocks and would . can you keep me in the loop when they will be ready for sale. Thanks Lawrie


Lawrie, When we have parts for sale, we will notify people on the Email list, MARC chapters, MAFCA chapters, and forums. I see that you are not on the Email list, so you will likely hear about it on FordBarn.






Maybe the question should be how much power can it handle. The weak link is usually the crank and this one looks pretty stout.
It would be fun to put a good overhead on it and see how it will RPM. Dodge


Dodge, I had the connecting rods finite element analyzed for 150 HP at 5000 RPM (158 lb-ft at 5000 RPM) and the stresses were very low. More can be found here http://www.modelaengine.com/12-conne...gn-a-6200.html
The crankshaft is stout and well supported compared to a Model A or B crankshaft, but has not been analyzed.






Terry, Thank you for your very thorough description of the production process and what to expect in the final product.
From what Iíve read, all the machining will be done so the block will be ready For the engine builder to assemble the engine. I assume the buyer will have the option to use insert or Babbitt bearings. Is that correct? David


David, Yes, the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods will be ready for assembly using bearing inserts that GM used from 1955 until 2003. If you want Babbitt, your engine builder can provide, but it will be an added expense to pour and line bore.






Hi Terry, I have followed your efforts for years, good to see it coming together.
I will need a block late this fall to assemble and test. I will pair it with a Roof overhead valve head I have in storage. I am also developing a set of hydraulic lifters that are contained in the profile of a standard Model A tappet. I had this head on a "B" block that cracked and at the time was having a problem keeping the valve lash within tolerance...thus the hydraulic lifters.
This setup put out about 118 hp on the dyno at 3500 rpm. I think your block assembly will work well with this project.
Upon successful completion of the test assembly, I am interested in becoming one of your wholesale purchasers of the block assemblies.
I look forward to the engine being available. Dave


Dave, Thanks for the kind words
The main oil gallery is just above the valve chamber floor and runs the full length of the cylinder block. The gallery is located between the cylinders and tappet bosses. From the centerline of the main bearings, the centerline of the gallery is 2.35 inches in the horizontal direction and 4.46 inches in the vertical direction. The diameter of the main oil gallery is .393 inches in diameter. Every one of the tappet bosses could be drilled from the valve cover side through to the gallery and the starting hole could be plugged with a setscrew.
We would be happy for you to become a dealer with a wholesale account.







Terry, Would you share the part numbers for the insert main and rod bearings and rear crankshaft seal?
I assume the front will or could be a modern or the standard packing seal.
I'm interested and would like to check availability of the required parts to assemble one. Thank you, Dave



The inserts are MAHLE part number CB745P (trimetal) and they were used from 1955 to 2003 in several V-8, 6, and 4-cylinder engines built by General Motors. The first usage was in the 1955 265 cubic inch V-8, and the last usage was in the 2.0 liter 4 cylinder OHV that was made in 2003. Both the main and connecting rod journals are the same at 2 inch diameter. The price for a pair of inserts including postage can be less than $3 for a pair. 12 pairs of inserts are required for the new engine. Check out Ebay #281494310467. Other manufacturers also make this insert.

The new cylinder block and rear main cap will have a bore of 5-inch diameter, and the crankshaft will have the flywheel mounting flange (4-inch diameter) that is extended forward to provide a seal rubbing surface. The rear main seal will be a SKF 39933, Timken 415035, or others with a 5 inch OD that seals on a 4-inch shaft. The seals mentioned above have garter springs. Garter springs are usually not used on high speed shafts, so we will likely remove the garter spring for our engineering evaluation engine.
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:38 PM   #140
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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FYI - Terry Burtz posted the following progress update today on the development of the Model A block:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

15 July 2020


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com This website also has previous updates, pictures and videos.

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, suggestion, or wants to get on the Email list for updates, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue and add your Email address to the update list.

FordBarn,(https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782) is an internet social group for Model A Ford hobbyists and there are a lot of interesting questions and comments regarding this project. There are too many people on the Email list to keep everyone informed as things progress, so please check the FordBarn website for the latest developments. The FordBarn thread also tells the complete story from July 2019 when this stalled project was resurrected.


New Engine

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and they have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others (John, Leonard, and Bill) to have the "new engine" manufactured in China.

A lot has happened since the last update on 19 June 2020.


Cylinder Block and Main Caps

We were expecting to have the engineering evaluation hardware (cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods delivered just after the July 4th holiday. This didn't happen because the machinery being utilized to machine the cylinder blocks was reassigned to machine locomotive cylinder heads. This resulted in a schedule slip and the new Model A cylinder blocks are now expected before the end of July 2020.


Crankshaft

The engineering evaluation crankshafts are complete and are awaiting completion of the cylinder blocks for fit-check verification. For ease of manufacture, the factory asked and we agreed to change the drilling method from a single hole to cross-drilling. Although this is not our crankshaft, the video shows how crankshafts are cross-drilled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZDCpWoZJV4 If you stop the video at 3:49, you will see the paths of the oil passages. The dead-ended passages will be plugged with setscrews so they can be removed to clean the passages.


Connecting Rods

The engineering evaluation connecting rods are complete and have been fit-checked to the crankshaft and wrist pin using the insert bearing and wrist pin that we provided.


Design Verification

We have been in contact with an engine rebuilder and parts supplier that has agreed to be a 3rd party evaluator to verify the design by assembling a short block with parts that we supply, and then assemble a complete engine with some new and mostly used parts that he supplies.

We are planning to have the new engine parts air-shipped from China and delivered to the 3rd party evaluator's business location and we are excited to see what arrives. This will be our first opportunity to visually see the new engine parts.

The new engine parts will be cosmetically compared to original parts, and dimensionally measured to confirm that all interfaces are a match to Ford drawings for attaching parts. Any discrepancies found will be documented so they can be corrected before the production run.

We have asked the 3rd party evaluator to build a "touring engine" that utilizes mostly stock parts but uses a high compression head and lightened flywheel. Along with the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods, we will supply a Stipe 5 bearing camshaft, a modified Model A oil pump, and a Stipe oil pump.

Our findings and assessment during the evaluation will be published as posts to FordBarn which is so much easier than sending hundreds of Emails. The FordBarn thread regarding the new engine and where we will post our findings is here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782

After assembly of the new engine, it will be run on a test stand at a high RPM for a length of time, and then installed in a car that will be driven in hill climbs at WOT (Wide Open Throttle). Next, the engine will be plumbed to utilize an oil filter and again run on the test stand. After all testing, the engine will be disassembled and all moving parts will be inspected for wear. If we agree that the design is valid, we will authorize production.



Next Update and Other Comments


If all goes well and there are no major changes resulting from engineering evaluation, we will authorize production and should have parts in stock and for sale sometime in September 2020.

We have set a discounted introductory price of $3500 for 60 days that will include a cylinder block with main caps, thrust washers, camshaft bearings and all dowel pins installed, main cap studs and nuts, connecting rods with wrist pin bushings and dowel pins installed along with fasteners, and a crankshaft with dowel pins and Woodruff key installed. Dealer pricing for quantities of 5 will be less. After the 60-day introductory price, we are planning to sell exclusively through dealers (parts retailers and machine shops) that order 5 or more at a time. The start date for the 60 days introductory price has not been set.

I'm the engineer on this project. The other team members are John Lampl who is responsible for manufacturing, quality assurance, transportation, customs, and pricing, William Percival who is our bean counter and computer guru, and Leonard Nettles who is responsible for receiving orders and shipping parts.

After the engineering evaluation parts pass our appearance and testing requirements, the production order will be placed and information regarding how to contact John, William, and Leonard will be published to the people on the Email list, Ford Barn, all MARC and MAFCA chapters, and parts retailers and machine shops.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

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