The Ford Barn

rockfla · 03-22-2021, 07:45 AM

1) does a starter have to be wired for + or - ground?
2) I have 6.29 volts at the "inside" of my solenoid , WHEN I press the start button on the dash shouldn't I get that on the opposite side of the solenoid?
3) Logic would tell me that on the "key/On--Off" switch, one of the two sides "should" be hot, correct??
Chasing electrical issues and wanting a "clearer" understanding. Thanks!!!

JWL · 03-22-2021, 07:56 AM

The starter must be grounded but which pole is not an issue. so long as the system arrangement is followed. The starter side of the solenoid should have nearly the same voltage unless there is a load attached.(like a starter) Yes, the on-off ignition switch has one "hot" terminal.

aussie merc · 03-22-2021, 08:13 AM

if your smart enough to ask a question then your no idiot Just wondering what's the problem ???? wont crank / cranks wont start / starts wont run .

rockfla · 03-22-2021, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussie merc

if your smart enough to ask a question then your no idiot Just wondering what's the problem ???? wont crank / cranks wont start / starts wont run .

First, i'm following 80% of someone else's wiring work SO......BUT I am working on my 41 GP and I "finished" the "other" wiring and SO I figured I would pop a battery into it and just hit the starter button to see "IF" I got the reaction I was hoping for.......NOTHING.......SO I'm not getting anything from the starter, I did check continuity thru on/off switch to make sure it was working and its sketchy at best, I had to turn and move/jiggle the key to get it to make a connection SO I know for sure I have to change that. BUT I should get the starter to turn regardless of the key being on or off.

marko39 · 03-22-2021, 08:43 AM

The dash starter button activates the solenoid by grounding the wire to dash. Make sure starter button can get a good path to ground by cleaning any rust where it fits in dash.

rotorwrench · 03-22-2021, 08:49 AM

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Series wound high torque motors are not polarity sensitive. Most early ford starter relays are hard wired to the battery with the start button grounding the relay circuit to operate. They will turn the motor with the ignition switch in the on or off position. Polarity is designated by the way the battery is connected. Negative is the power side and positive is the ground side on the early fords after the model T and up into the mid 50s. You can run them negative ground but the generator is polarity sensitive and would require repolarization in the event that the battery polarity is changed to negative ground.

The old starter relays have an internal connection to the power side of the relay where the battery cable is connected. If you connect it backwards, there will be no power to the relay coil when the button is pushed.

rockfla · 03-22-2021, 08:59 AM

ROTORWRENCh
SO......I believe that "originally" the battery was hooked up "backwards" ie Negative ground and it was "supposedly" run this way for about 30 seconds. I believe this as that is the way the battery was hooked up when we picked it up and got it to my shop....the first thing noticed!!!!
SO reading your post I will for sure need to re-polarize the Generator??? AND am I reading that the solenoid will need replacing????

drolston · 03-22-2021, 09:20 AM

First be sure the battery is connected to the "Bat" side of the solenoid. Second, be sure battery terminal connections are clean and tight. Then check for good connections to ground and to the solenoid.

Then: If the solenoid does not click when the starter button is pressed, try a direct wire from the small wire terminal on the solenoid (connection to the starter button) to a good ground. If the solenoid still does not click you have a bad solenoid. To check the starter, take a battery gauge cable and momentarily jumper from one side of the solenoid to the other.

If the solenoid clicks but starter does not crank, hold the starter button in for a few seconds, then check touch the battery cable to the starter to see if they are a bit warm. If so the starter is jammed, bound up, or shorted out internally somehow. If the starter draws little current when the solenoid is engaged, one of the brushes is worn out or sitting on a high or dirty spot on the armature. Time to rebuild the starter.

JSeery · 03-22-2021, 09:33 AM

Unless you want to mess with a lot of stuff, it would be much easier to switch it back the positive ground. Ether way you need to figure out the current path at the starter solenoid. The current from the battery terminal needs to connect inside the solenoid to the small terminal on the front. When this terminal is grounded (pressing the starter button) it activates the solenoid and provides power to the starter. Use a test light or meter to see if you have power to both the battery side and the center terminal, both should be hot all the time. If not, you may need to switch the battery and starter cables at the solenoid. Might be best to disconnect the starter cable while doing this checks as it could activate the starter!

rockfla · 03-22-2021, 09:34 AM

DOES the solenoid ALSO need to be ground visa via the mounting bracket???? OR should it be????

JSeery · 03-22-2021, 09:39 PM

No!

rockfla · 03-23-2021, 06:43 AM

Thanks for all the answers, direction and advice....I think I have narrowed my problem down to the "push button" switch and either a bad switch OR bad ground. I was able to put a jumper wire from the solenoid to the battery and get "action" from the starter. I checked the continuity of the wire from the push button to the solenoid and it IS continuous. SO I pulled the push button switch and ran a jumper from the - battery post to the back of the push button switch and got it to turn SO........my limited mind tells me either a switch or ground issue??? SO I thought about this last night and am I correct in that I "should" be able to do a "continuity test on my push button switch by touching the probe to the outer tangs that hold the switch to the dash and touching the wire lug on the back correct???? AND IF everything is working correctly when I push the button I should here the "BEEP" of continuity, correct????
Thanks again for all the help!!!!

V8COOPMAN · 03-23-2021, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockfla

I "should" be able to do a "continuity test on my push button switch by touching the probe to the outer tangs that hold the switch to the dash and touching the wire lug on the back correct???? AND IF everything is working correctly when I push the button I should here the "BEEP" of continuity, correct????

Even better yet (since the DASH is the GROUNDING surface), put one probe on the wire lug on back of button. Place the other probe on the dash itself. If the button's TANGS are properly making a GROUND with the dash, you should get the "BEEP" of joy.....WHEN you PRESS the start button! DD

rockfla · 03-23-2021, 09:02 AM

Thanks V8Coopman

Zeke3 · 03-23-2021, 09:19 AM

Kube has stated in the past that he adds a ground wire to the button and connects to an inconspicuous place behind dash to improve the ground connection between the button and the dash.

rockfla · 03-23-2021, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke3

Kube has stated in the past that he adds a ground wire to the button and connects to an inconspicuous place behind dash to improve the ground connection between the button and the dash.

That's my plan of attack!!!! Thanks for the reminder

JSeery · 03-23-2021, 11:10 AM

When you are running the jumper to the battery you are connecting it to the grounded side of the battery, correct? They just jumping the terminal on the solenoid to ground, that will energize it.

rockfla · 03-23-2021, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSeery

When you are running the jumper to the battery you are connecting it to the grounded side of the battery, correct? They just jumping the terminal on the solenoid to ground, that will energize it.

I can run the jumper wire from the small center post on the solenoid to the battery side of the solenoid and get it to turn over. I also pull the push button out of the dash with the wire connected to it and run a jumper from the (-) side or power side of the battery to the back of the switch and get it to turn over......When I tried the (+) or ground side to the push button switch, NOTHING!!!!! Which doesn't make sense to me??? AS I thought that "grounding" the wire would make it turn over!!!! SO again, I know my issue is at the push button switch somewhere somehow

drolston · 03-23-2021, 11:47 AM

The replacement starter buttons are notoriously unreliable. I fought with an intermittent function starter button of the replacement type for two years. Finally replaced it with a stupid expensive original used one, and have not had a problem since.

V8COOPMAN · 03-23-2021, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockfla

I can run the jumper wire from the small center post on the solenoid to the battery side of the solenoid and get it to turn over. I also pull the push button out of the dash with the wire connected to it and run a jumper from the (-) side or power side of the battery to the back of the switch and get it to turn over......When I tried the (+) or ground side to the push button switch, NOTHING!!!!! Which doesn't make sense to me??? AS I thought that "grounding" the wire would make it turn over!!!! SO again, I know my issue is at the push button switch somewhere somehow

Hey, rock .....Are you sure that you have the starter cable ...AND the NEG Battery cables on the CORRECT solenoid posts? You sure you don't have them swapped, side for side?

If you DO have the two big cables on the CORRECT posts (it matters), when you measure voltage from the SMALL post to GROUND, your meter should show 6v~.

If you have the two big cables wired to the WRONG solenoid posts, and you measure voltage between the SMALL post and GROUND, your meter should read 0.0v (ZERO volts). But what do I know?

NOTE....This all assuming you now have the battery wired as POSITIVE GROUND. DD

........

rockfla · 03-23-2021, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Hey, rock .....Are you sure that you have the starter cable ...AND the NEG Battery cables on the CORRECT solenoid posts? You sure you don't have them swapped, side for side?

If you DO have the two big cables on the CORRECT posts (it matters), when you measure voltage from the SMALL post to GROUND, your meter should show 6v~.

If you have the two big cables wired to the WRONG solenoid posts, and you measure voltage between the SMALL post and GROUND, your meter should read 0.0v (ZERO volts). But what do I know? DD

........

As far as I know it is......here is how the solenoid is wired!!!

marko39 · 03-23-2021, 12:59 PM

Sounds like the same problem I had with my 39. I found I had the wrong solenoid. There is one for a different make that looks the same as the ford one but needs power instead of ground to energize. These types use a 2 wire starter button.

V8COOPMAN · 03-23-2021, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockfla

As far as I know it is......here is how the solenoid is wired!!!

Your sketch looks correct....IF the two big cables are wired to the appropriate posts on solenoid. If the two big wires DO NOT go to the correct posts, it ain;t gonna work.

Please go measure for VOLTAGE between the SMALL center post, and GROUND. If you see 6v, you're good. If you see 0 volts, the two big wires are wired backwards. Let's verify that THIS is correct before going any further. DD

rockfla · 03-23-2021, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Your sketch looks correct....IF the two big cables are wired to the appropriate posts on solenoid. If the two big wires DO NOT go to the correct posts, it ain;t gonna work.

Please go measure for VOLTAGE between the SMALL center post, and GROUND. If you see 6v, you're good. If you see 0 volts, the two big wires are wired backwards. Let's verify that THIS is correct before going any further. DD

I'll check it tonight when I get home from work. I believe I checked that yesterday and it was 0.00 but I will check it again!!!! AGAIN not sure IF running the jeep for 30 or so seconds on a negative ground would have damaged the solenoid BUT again is supposedly ran that way!!!!!

V8COOPMAN · 03-23-2021, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockfla

I'll check it tonight when I get home from work. I believe I checked that yesterday and it was 0.00 but I will check it again!!!! AGAIN not sure IF running the jeep for 30 or so seconds on a negative ground would have damaged the solenoid BUT again is supposedly ran that way!!!!!

I can't imagine any way that reversing polarity could even begin to damage a solenoid. That solenoid is just a magnetically-activated on/off switch.

C'mon man.....cut class! Take the rest of the day off. Like Cheech & Chong .....tell the boss you have to REE-PAIR the Jeep! Man, we've gott'a get this thing to crankin'! DD

cas3 · 03-23-2021, 05:37 PM

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Marco39 touched on the subject, some solenoids are triggered by ground, and some are triggered by power. since it is most likely not the original solenoid, i would test things with a jumper wire to see what it takes to make it move. you will hear it when the coil inside pulls the contacts together

tubman · 03-23-2021, 05:49 PM

I agree with "cas3". The first thing to do is to determine if you have the proper solenoid for your car.

JSeery · 03-23-2021, 06:32 PM

Yep, something is not right, as far as original goes. There are lots of ways to wire things up using various part combinations. But the further you move for the original parts and configuration the more difficult things become unless you really understand what your doing. My suggestion would be to return it to a stock configuration and make life easier! It is a very simple electric system, if it's not modified by someone not understanding what their doing.

V8COOPMAN · 03-23-2021, 06:51 PM

.

rock .....This diagram indicates essentially what you SHOULD have, including the POS GROUND set-up. What this drawing DOES NOT necessarily indicate is the PROPER post to wire the CORRECT corresponding large cable to. Wondering if the two large poles on your solenoid might be marked in any way? DD

JSeery · 03-23-2021, 06:58 PM

Some are marked. Think it is normally battery side toward the center of the car and starter on the outside. Some photos would help. What does your solenoid look like? All metal or black plastic?

JSeery · 03-23-2021, 07:16 PM

Just went out and checked a couple of solenoids, they were both marked for BAT side. Your solenoid should look something like this.

JSeery · 03-23-2021, 07:27 PM

This is how the solenoid is wired internally (an original style). Making a hot connection from the center post of the solenoid to the battery should not work at all, so I would guess the solenoid is not the correct one.

rotorwrench · 03-24-2021, 08:28 AM

There are two types of single control terminal relays. JSeery has explained the Ford type but there are also ones that have no internal connection of the small single terminal to the power side large terminal (Bat). These types have an internal connection of the relay coil to the body of the relay which is grounded when installed on the car. This type has to have a switched power connection to the small terminal in order to energize the relay. This type can have the battery connection and starter connection either way on the large terminals and still function. Ford did NOT use this type. The best way to check either type is with a multi-meter set to read ohms resistance. A volt meter or test light would only work on the Ford type relay when properly connected in the circuit.

Also keep in mind that a relay operating coil has it's own resistance value which is generally a lower value on relays that are for intermittent service like a starter relay since it has larger gauge coil wire with less number of wire turns in the coil. Continuous service relays generally have a higher value of resistance in the operating coil due to smaller gauge wire and a lot more turns of wire in the make up of the coil. This relay type is also known as a holding relay and are more commonly used as a battery relay where they are switched on all the time during operation of the battery system.

03-22-2021, 07:45 AM	#1
rockfla Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 3,952	Electrical questions from an Idiot 1) does a starter have to be wired for + or - ground? 2) I have 6.29 volts at the "inside" of my solenoid , WHEN I press the start button on the dash shouldn't I get that on the opposite side of the solenoid? 3) Logic would tell me that on the "key/On--Off" switch, one of the two sides "should" be hot, correct?? Chasing electrical issues and wanting a "clearer" understanding. Thanks!!!

03-22-2021, 07:56 AM	#2
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot The starter must be grounded but which pole is not an issue. so long as the system arrangement is followed. The starter side of the solenoid should have nearly the same voltage unless there is a load attached.(like a starter) Yes, the on-off ignition switch has one "hot" terminal.

03-22-2021, 08:13 AM	#3
aussie merc Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: sydney australia Posts: 1,033	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot if your smart enough to ask a question then your no idiot Just wondering what's the problem ???? wont crank / cranks wont start / starts wont run .

03-22-2021, 08:43 AM	#5
marko39 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: harpursville ny Posts: 1,040	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot The dash starter button activates the solenoid by grounding the wire to dash. Make sure starter button can get a good path to ground by cleaning any rust where it fits in dash.

03-22-2021, 08:49 AM	#6
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Series wound high torque motors are not polarity sensitive. Most early ford starter relays are hard wired to the battery with the start button grounding the relay circuit to operate. They will turn the motor with the ignition switch in the on or off position. Polarity is designated by the way the battery is connected. Negative is the power side and positive is the ground side on the early fords after the model T and up into the mid 50s. You can run them negative ground but the generator is polarity sensitive and would require repolarization in the event that the battery polarity is changed to negative ground. The old starter relays have an internal connection to the power side of the relay where the battery cable is connected. If you connect it backwards, there will be no power to the relay coil when the button is pushed.

03-22-2021, 08:59 AM	#7
rockfla Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 3,952	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot ROTORWRENCh SO......I believe that "originally" the battery was hooked up "backwards" ie Negative ground and it was "supposedly" run this way for about 30 seconds. I believe this as that is the way the battery was hooked up when we picked it up and got it to my shop....the first thing noticed!!!! SO reading your post I will for sure need to re-polarize the Generator??? AND am I reading that the solenoid will need replacing????

03-22-2021, 09:20 AM	#8
drolston Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Williamsburg, VA Posts: 1,627	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot First be sure the battery is connected to the "Bat" side of the solenoid. Second, be sure battery terminal connections are clean and tight. Then check for good connections to ground and to the solenoid. Then: If the solenoid does not click when the starter button is pressed, try a direct wire from the small wire terminal on the solenoid (connection to the starter button) to a good ground. If the solenoid still does not click you have a bad solenoid. To check the starter, take a battery gauge cable and momentarily jumper from one side of the solenoid to the other. If the solenoid clicks but starter does not crank, hold the starter button in for a few seconds, then check touch the battery cable to the starter to see if they are a bit warm. If so the starter is jammed, bound up, or shorted out internally somehow. If the starter draws little current when the solenoid is engaged, one of the brushes is worn out or sitting on a high or dirty spot on the armature. Time to rebuild the starter. Last edited by drolston; 03-22-2021 at 11:25 AM.

03-22-2021, 09:33 AM	#9
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Unless you want to mess with a lot of stuff, it would be much easier to switch it back the positive ground. Ether way you need to figure out the current path at the starter solenoid. The current from the battery terminal needs to connect inside the solenoid to the small terminal on the front. When this terminal is grounded (pressing the starter button) it activates the solenoid and provides power to the starter. Use a test light or meter to see if you have power to both the battery side and the center terminal, both should be hot all the time. If not, you may need to switch the battery and starter cables at the solenoid. Might be best to disconnect the starter cable while doing this checks as it could activate the starter!

03-22-2021, 09:34 AM	#10
rockfla Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 3,952	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot DOES the solenoid ALSO need to be ground visa via the mounting bracket???? OR should it be????

03-22-2021, 09:39 PM	#11
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot No!

03-23-2021, 06:43 AM	#12
rockfla Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 3,952	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Thanks for all the answers, direction and advice....I think I have narrowed my problem down to the "push button" switch and either a bad switch OR bad ground. I was able to put a jumper wire from the solenoid to the battery and get "action" from the starter. I checked the continuity of the wire from the push button to the solenoid and it IS continuous. SO I pulled the push button switch and ran a jumper from the - battery post to the back of the push button switch and got it to turn SO........my limited mind tells me either a switch or ground issue??? SO I thought about this last night and am I correct in that I "should" be able to do a "continuity test on my push button switch by touching the probe to the outer tangs that hold the switch to the dash and touching the wire lug on the back correct???? AND IF everything is working correctly when I push the button I should here the "BEEP" of continuity, correct???? Thanks again for all the help!!!!

03-23-2021, 09:02 AM	#14
rockfla Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 3,952	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Thanks V8Coopman

03-23-2021, 09:19 AM	#15
Zeke3 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Columbus, IN Posts: 1,406	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Kube has stated in the past that he adds a ground wire to the button and connects to an inconspicuous place behind dash to improve the ground connection between the button and the dash.

03-23-2021, 11:10 AM	#17
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot When you are running the jumper to the battery you are connecting it to the grounded side of the battery, correct? They just jumping the terminal on the solenoid to ground, that will energize it.

03-23-2021, 11:47 AM	#19
drolston Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Williamsburg, VA Posts: 1,627	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot The replacement starter buttons are notoriously unreliable. I fought with an intermittent function starter button of the replacement type for two years. Finally replaced it with a stupid expensive original used one, and have not had a problem since.

03-23-2021, 12:59 PM	#22
marko39 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: harpursville ny Posts: 1,040	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Sounds like the same problem I had with my 39. I found I had the wrong solenoid. There is one for a different make that looks the same as the ford one but needs power instead of ground to energize. These types use a 2 wire starter button.

03-23-2021, 05:37 PM	#26
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,572	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Marco39 touched on the subject, some solenoids are triggered by ground, and some are triggered by power. since it is most likely not the original solenoid, i would test things with a jumper wire to see what it takes to make it move. you will hear it when the coil inside pulls the contacts together

03-23-2021, 05:49 PM	#27
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,312	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot I agree with "cas3". The first thing to do is to determine if you have the proper solenoid for your car.

03-23-2021, 06:32 PM	#28
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Yep, something is not right, as far as original goes. There are lots of ways to wire things up using various part combinations. But the further you move for the original parts and configuration the more difficult things become unless you really understand what your doing. My suggestion would be to return it to a stock configuration and make life easier! It is a very simple electric system, if it's not modified by someone not understanding what their doing.

03-23-2021, 06:51 PM	#29
V8COOPMAN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON Posts: 11,111	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot . *rock* .....This diagram indicates essentially what you SHOULD have, including the POS GROUND set-up. What this drawing DOES NOT necessarily indicate is the PROPER post to wire the CORRECT corresponding large cable to. Wondering if the two large poles on your solenoid might be marked in any way? DD __________________ *Click Links Below* __ ▼ *'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN* *T5 W/TORQUE TUBE*

03-23-2021, 06:58 PM	#30
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot Some are marked. Think it is normally battery side toward the center of the car and starter on the outside. Some photos would help. What does your solenoid look like? All metal or black plastic?

03-24-2021, 08:28 AM	#33
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,426	Re: Electrical questions from an Idiot There are two types of single control terminal relays. JSeery has explained the Ford type but there are also ones that have no internal connection of the small single terminal to the power side large terminal (Bat). These types have an internal connection of the relay coil to the body of the relay which is grounded when installed on the car. This type has to have a switched power connection to the small terminal in order to energize the relay. This type can have the battery connection and starter connection either way on the large terminals and still function. Ford did NOT use this type. The best way to check either type is with a multi-meter set to read ohms resistance. A volt meter or test light would only work on the Ford type relay when properly connected in the circuit. Also keep in mind that a relay operating coil has it's own resistance value which is generally a lower value on relays that are for intermittent service like a starter relay since it has larger gauge coil wire with less number of wire turns in the coil. Continuous service relays generally have a higher value of resistance in the operating coil due to smaller gauge wire and a lot more turns of wire in the make up of the coil. This relay type is also known as a holding relay and are more commonly used as a battery relay where they are switched on all the time during operation of the battery system.