The Ford Barn

MrWzrd · 12-26-2013, 06:29 PM

ok, I know what to do on other antiques and airplanes.... but on Ford A's I need to know the accepted procedure when a specific torque is called for on a castle nut.

Axle nut - Torque to 125 ft/lbs and apply the cotter pin. That's what it says.

How? At 125ft/lbs the cotter pin how is half way between castle slots.

Tighten it to the next?
Loosen to the last?
Drill new hole?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Mitch//pa · 12-26-2013, 06:41 PM

i would not back off the rear axle nut but take it a hair tighter to the next cotter opening.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 12-26-2013, 06:42 PM

Well, to start off with, any torque value you have is not Ford's value, ...but someone who felt compelled to "over-achieve". Since you mentioned the axle nut torque value at 125 lbs, in your own mind, what happens if you take it to 123 lbs and the slot aligns with the axle shaft? Do you really feel that those 2 pounds will affect the performance of the hub?? I don't! Again, these vehicles survived well for many years prior to a Torque Wrench even being invented. Back then it was 'common sense' that dictated how much to tighten a fastener.

One other method if you are adamant about meeting your 125 lbs torque reading is to remove the nut and place the flat side against a belt sander to remove a couple thousandths off of the nut. That will generally be enough to gain the proper index between the slot and the hole.

MrWzrd · 12-26-2013, 06:52 PM

Brent.... sorry... either I didn't convey my sarcasm properly or you missed it.

Les Andrews Vol I, Page 1-44. 125ft/lbs. I read that and was scratching my head as to how one would be able to achieve a specific torque with a castle nut......

Let me use a different question as an analogy.... when nailing jello to a tree should I use a 10 penny nail or a finishing nail?

Gary/IA · 12-26-2013, 06:58 PM

Heck! everybody knows you have to use a STAPLE to nail jello

.

spdway1 · 12-26-2013, 07:20 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary/IA

Heck! everybody knows you have to use a STAPLE to nail jello

.

I just ran outside, A NAIL worked well for me!

Ron in Quincy · 12-26-2013, 08:03 PM

The Axel castle nut is a special hardened nut specific for use on the axel. Look up the castle nut in the Parts Price List if you doubt what I am saying.

I usually torque this nut to 90 ft. lbs. and then more to line up the cotter hole.

Ron

BILL WILLIAMSON · 12-26-2013, 08:05 PM

Dog here,
I wanna' KILL one uf them POSSUMS thet run on ur fence, Ol' Bill jist nailed 3 hard ooold biscuts on the fence to help!! Buster T.

glenn in camino · 12-26-2013, 08:28 PM

I always tighten to the next cotter pin notch. Never back off.

James Rogers · 12-26-2013, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Dog here,
I wanna' KILL one uf them POSSUMS thet run on ur fence, Ol' Bill jist nailed 3 hard ooold biscuts on the fence to help!! Buster T.

Don't mess with possums, PETA will take you to court.http://gazette.com/judge-annual-new-...rticle/1511532

chopo · 12-26-2013, 08:39 PM

and never drill a new hole

Tom Endy · 12-26-2013, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron in Quincy

The Axel castle nut is a special hardened nut specific for use on the axel. Look up the castle nut in the Parts Price List if you doubt what I am saying.

I usually torque this nut to 90 ft. lbs. and then more to line up the cotter hole.

Ron

That is exactly what I do. Set the wrench at 90 lb, tighten until it clicks, then tighten until a castle lines up with the hole. The final torque is around 100-110 lb, which I think is plenty tight. Same drill for the nut on the pinion end of the drive shaft.

Tom Endy

johnsor · 12-26-2013, 11:07 PM

With my old axels and somewhat worn threads, I think the threads would strip at 100 lbs. Judging by "feel", I'm afraid to go over 70 to 80 lbs.

700rpm · 12-26-2013, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWzrd

Let me use a different question as an analogy.... when nailing jello to a tree should I use a 10 penny nail or a finishing nail?

Yes.

Mike V. Florida · 12-26-2013, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWzrd

Brent.... sorry... either I didn't convey my sarcasm properly or you missed it.

Les Andrews Vol I, Page 1-44. 125ft/lbs. I read that and was scratching my head as to how one would be able to achieve a specific torque with a castle nut......

Let me use a different question as an analogy.... when nailing jello to a tree should I use a 10 penny nail or a finishing nail?

Unfortunately this exact question, "what do I do when I reach the max torque and the hole does not line up?" comes up here from time to time. As such it is not readily known by the reader is it is a real question or not, yours was not.

tbirdtbird · 12-27-2013, 12:06 AM

There was nothing to miss.

Quincy Ron and Tom Endy have the most reasonable solution.

And there are many axles out there that I myself would be afraid to tighten past 70-80

Kevin in NJ · 12-27-2013, 08:45 AM

During the A years correct torque was determined by the wrench. The average guy had so much strength and the wrench a certain length.

All the nuts got about the correct torque just by makin em good and tight.

Course, now we are flubbery and might want to consider a bit longer wrenches to get the same torque. Maybe a bit longer if your main job is typing at a computer all day

Maybe a bit shorter if you are a blacksmith.

I am making it a bit tongue and cheek, but that is how it was done in the day.

So if you are a normal (for 1930) strength mechanic then using the head wrench will yield the correct torque for putting the head on the block using the materials of the day.

I do not use a torque wrench for anything but the head and adjusting the rear bearing preload. The rest is just good and tight and I only use original Ford nuts in critical applications no matter how nasty the nut looks so long as it is functional.

whirnot · 12-27-2013, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWzrd

Brent.... sorry... either I didn't convey my sarcasm properly or you missed it.

Les Andrews Vol I, Page 1-44. 125ft/lbs. I read that and was scratching my head as to how one would be able to achieve a specific torque with a castle nut......

Let me use a different question as an analogy.... when nailing jello to a tree should I use a 10 penny nail or a finishing nail?

Well a 10 penny finish nail of course......

Patrick L. · 12-27-2013, 10:41 AM

'Flubbery' ?! We're 'Flubbery' ? Well, ya, Huummm, I guess that about sums it up doesn't it.
I agree with the others that say to start low and increase the tonnage just to drop in the cotter. I like to get over 100lb/ft and if the threads start feeling 'spongy' or 'flubbery' [ that term would work for this too wouldn't it, I like that term] it should be able to be felt.
I recently had a 'go-around' with a local Model A 'expert' about this very subject. He was insistent that the rear axle nut be no more than 'snug', his reason being that the key, and not the taper, is what should take the load.

Ron in Quincy · 12-27-2013, 11:59 AM

The position of the key controls the amount the drum moves toward the backing plate.

It is important to check this clearance and be sure the drum is not rubbing against

the backing plate; this can also effect the movement of the brake shoes.

It is not just a simple torque of the drum to the axel as other things are going on

inside the drum and must be taken into consideration.

Ron

12-26-2013, 06:29 PM	#1
MrWzrd BANNED Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 158	castle nut question ok, I know what to do on other antiques and airplanes.... but on Ford A's I need to know the accepted procedure when a specific torque is called for on a castle nut. Axle nut - Torque to 125 ft/lbs and apply the cotter pin. That's what it says. How? At 125ft/lbs the cotter pin how is half way between castle slots. Tighten it to the next? Loosen to the last? Drill new hole? Inquiring minds want to know.

12-26-2013, 06:41 PM	#2
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: castle nut question i would not back off the rear axle nut but take it a hair tighter to the next cotter opening.

12-26-2013, 06:42 PM	#3
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,507	Re: castle nut question Well, to start off with, any torque value you have is not Ford's value, ...but someone who felt compelled to "over-achieve". Since you mentioned the axle nut torque value at 125 lbs, in your own mind, what happens if you take it to 123 lbs and the slot aligns with the axle shaft? Do you really feel that those 2 pounds will affect the performance of the hub?? I don't! Again, these vehicles survived well for many years prior to a Torque Wrench even being invented. Back then it was 'common sense' that dictated how much to tighten a fastener. One other method if you are adamant about meeting your 125 lbs torque reading is to remove the nut and place the flat side against a belt sander to remove a couple thousandths off of the nut. That will generally be enough to gain the proper index between the slot and the hole. __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

12-26-2013, 06:52 PM	#4
MrWzrd BANNED Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 158	Re: castle nut question Brent.... sorry... either I didn't convey my sarcasm properly or you missed it. Les Andrews Vol I, Page 1-44. 125ft/lbs. I read that and was scratching my head as to how one would be able to achieve a specific torque with a castle nut...... Let me use a different question as an analogy.... when nailing jello to a tree should I use a 10 penny nail or a finishing nail?

12-26-2013, 06:58 PM	#5
Gary/IA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ellston, Iowa Posts: 247	Re: castle nut question Heck! everybody knows you have to use a STAPLE to nail jello.

12-26-2013, 08:03 PM	#7
Ron in Quincy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Quincy, CA. Posts: 1,708	Re: castle nut question The Axel castle nut is a special hardened nut specific for use on the axel. Look up the castle nut in the Parts Price List if you doubt what I am saying. I usually torque this nut to 90 ft. lbs. and then more to line up the cotter hole. Ron

12-26-2013, 08:28 PM	#9
glenn in camino Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Camino, CA. Posts: 3,086	Re: castle nut question I always tighten to the next cotter pin notch. Never back off.

12-26-2013, 08:39 PM	#11
chopo Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Northumberland Posts: 193	Re: castle nut question and never drill a new hole __________________ www.jalopyshowdown.com dont scare me i poop easy

12-26-2013, 11:07 PM	#13
johnsor Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spooner, Wisconsin Posts: 242	Re: castle nut question With my old axels and somewhat worn threads, I think the threads would strip at 100 lbs. Judging by "feel", I'm afraid to go over 70 to 80 lbs.

12-27-2013, 12:06 AM	#16
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: castle nut question There was nothing to miss. Quincy Ron and Tom Endy have the most reasonable solution. And there are many axles out there that I myself would be afraid to tighten past 70-80 __________________ '31 180A

12-27-2013, 08:45 AM	#17
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: castle nut question During the A years correct torque was determined by the wrench. The average guy had so much strength and the wrench a certain length. All the nuts got about the correct torque just by makin em good and tight. Course, now we are flubbery and might want to consider a bit longer wrenches to get the same torque. Maybe a bit longer if your main job is typing at a computer all day Maybe a bit shorter if you are a blacksmith. I am making it a bit tongue and cheek, but that is how it was done in the day. So if you are a normal (for 1930) strength mechanic then using the head wrench will yield the correct torque for putting the head on the block using the materials of the day. I do not use a torque wrench for anything but the head and adjusting the rear bearing preload. The rest is just good and tight and I only use original Ford nuts in critical applications no matter how nasty the nut looks so long as it is functional.

12-27-2013, 10:41 AM	#19
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: castle nut question 'Flubbery' ?! We're 'Flubbery' ? Well, ya, Huummm, I guess that about sums it up doesn't it. I agree with the others that say to start low and increase the tonnage just to drop in the cotter. I like to get over 100lb/ft and if the threads start feeling 'spongy' or 'flubbery' [ that term would work for this too wouldn't it, I like that term] it should be able to be felt. I recently had a 'go-around' with a local Model A 'expert' about this very subject. He was insistent that the rear axle nut be no more than 'snug', his reason being that the key, and not the taper, is what should take the load.

12-27-2013, 11:59 AM	#20
Ron in Quincy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Quincy, CA. Posts: 1,708	Re: castle nut question The position of the key controls the amount the drum moves toward the backing plate. It is important to check this clearance and be sure the drum is not rubbing against the backing plate; this can also effect the movement of the brake shoes. It is not just a simple torque of the drum to the axel as other things are going on inside the drum and must be taken into consideration. Ron