Main Bearing Peening

[DJ S]

What temperature do you peen the main bearings at?

[v8fordman]

I don't check the temp before peening, but think it is a vital step in the pouring/rebuilding process. I normally do it while the babbitt is still hot, but have done it after it cools as well. I have never noticed any difference in the amount of compression.

[Mark in MT]

I peen the bearings as soon as I can after I strip off the molds. The Babbitt is softer and more pliable, keeps it pressed against the block while cooling. My molds are for 1 bearing, so I do them one at a time.

[Synchro909]

I recently spoke to a guy who has been doing Babbit bearings for 40 years and has never peened them. Nor does he have failures. He drills dimples into the cast iron into which the metal runs and act as a key to prevent the bearing turning in he block. I read a lot here about peening them but what is the consensus on keying them in? I have seen engines where that was done when last rebuilt decades ago so I know it works.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

I don't care what you do for Key, even make it look like Swiss Cheese, babbitt will shrink away from the block. The holes in the saddles are there to keep the bearing from turning under load, nothing else. If you don't peen, the crank will do it for you. DO NOT Peen cold Babbitt, it will make hair line cracks in the side towards the block.

If after a pour and you see seams, dirt, air bubbles of certain kinds, do not try to cover them up with a torch, like all the videos on U-Tube.

It would be like a lake shore. Whether it be mud, sand, or rock. What ever is on the shore, is under the water. So what ever is in the Babbitt on the outside, it is worst against the Block.

Unless your Babbitt hammer is run by air, they should not be used, as they cover to big of an area to do any kind of a correct job.

Wow, 40 years with out Peening, and never had one come back, we have found that many Babbitt jobs that have come in that have lasted around 100 to 5,000 that went bad from other babbitters, the customer was so dam mad, they wouldn't darken their door way again. Some did take them back once, expecting a different result.

I have been pouring Babbitt, now for 54 years, and have never sent a block out with out Peening. Oh, and never a come back, on any kind of a bearing.

We have spun poured over 33,000 Model T Rods, and even more or Model A rods. Model B rods, not as many, maybe under 5,000.

If anybody thinks Peening is not necessary, I will Guarantee, my customers won't care.

Anybody that wants to babbitt, should get two books. The reprint of K.R. Wilson tool catalogs, Model T, and A. It gives a good description of why to peen, and many other things.

Another reason, and a big one is, any bearing that has any kind of space between the bearing and it's shell, oil will get between the babbitt, and it's saddle, and will have a harder time conducting away the heat from the bearing, as oil is NOT a good conductor of heat transfer.

Thanks,

Herm.

[Kevin in NJ]

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Based on NOS caps we have, Ford peened with some kind of air powered device that likely used correct sized washers floating on a shaft. Vince Falter has pictures of the caps on his website.

Peening hot is a critical part of a proper babbitt job.

[DJ S]

You've all said to do it hot but how hot is hot? My first attempt of doing this, I hit the babbitt with the KR Wilson tool and the babbitt crumbled as it was far too pliable , perhaps because it was still too hot?

[redmodelt]

Would the later caps that were tinned need to be peened? I didn't think they did. Wouldn't crumbled babbitt indicate the babbitt was too hot, burnt?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

I don't care what you do for Key, even make it look like Swiss Cheese, babbitt will shrink away from the block. The holes in the saddles are there to keep the bearing from turning under load, nothing else. If you don't peen, the crank will do it for you. DO NOT Peen cold Babbitt, it will make hair line cracks in the side towards the block.

If after a pour and you see seams, dirt, air bubbles of certain kinds, do not try to cover them up with a torch, like all the videos on U-Tube.

It would be like a lake shore. Whether it be mud, sand, or rock. What ever is on the shore, is under the water. So what ever is in the Babbitt on the outside, it is worst against the Block.

Unless your Babbitt hammer is run by air, they should not be used, as they cover to big of an area to do any kind of a correct job.

Wow, 40 years with out Peening, and never had one come back, we have found that many Babbitt jobs that have come in that have lasted around 100 to 5,000 that went bad from other babbitters, the customer was so dam mad, they wouldn't darken their door way again. Some did take them back once, expecting a different result.

I have been pouring Babbitt, now for 54 years, and have never sent a block out with out Peening. Oh, and never a come back, on any kind of a bearing.

We have spun poured over 33,000 Model T Rods, and even more or Model A rods. Model B rods, not as many, maybe under 5,000.

If anybody thinks Peening is not necessary, I will Guarantee, my customers won't care.

Anybody that wants to babbitt, should get two books. The reprint of K.R. Wilson tool catalogs, Model T, and A. It gives a good description of why to peen, and many other things.

Another reason, and a big one is, any bearing that has any kind of space between the bearing and it's shell, oil will get between the babbitt, and it's saddle, and will have a harder time conducting away the heat from the bearing, as oil is NOT a good conductor of heat transfer.

Thanks,

Herm.

I neglected to say he pre heats the block before pouring. That would make a difference. It is clear you don't like it and what you say makes sense. I don't know the finer details of what he does so maybe he's being cagey.

[Kevin in NJ]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I neglected to say he pre heats the block before pouring. That would make a difference. It is clear you don't like it and what you say makes sense. I don't know the finer details of what he does so maybe he's being cagey.

It is not a case of not liking what the does. It is a case that the science of babbitting a block dictates that babbitt needs to be peened. It is a basic fact of how a proper babbitt job is done. The metal is going to shrink and pull away unless you have a tinned surface to hold it in place.

While it is very difficult to find the facts on how to properly babbitt, it turns out it is mostly a clear science. To pour babbitt that is close to or the correct Ford mix you will need a 'hot' block. In reality you want the babbitt to solidify rapidly to form micro crystals. If it is heated up too slow or allowed to cool too slow large crystals will form and they will become crack formation sites. Just as you also can not have pre-existing babbitt in the pot and you must stir the babbitt a certain way before a pour and so on. You can learn most of this though reading some very technical articles and the aforementioned KRW catalogs.

A lot of people do babbitt, some know about the science behind babbitt. There is a lot of bad information out there. We learned the hard way back before the internet. We had guys that poured for 40 years tell us stuff that was very very wrong. That is why we seek out the science as best we can. Quite frankly, the information on babbitt is very difficult to learn.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Based on NOS caps we have, Ford peened with some kind of air powered device that likely used correct sized washers floating on a shaft. Vince Falter has pictures of the caps on his website.

Peening hot is a critical part of a proper babbitt job.

Kev, what was used for the Model T, was shown on P. TV. movie on Ford. It shows how they poured blocks. The Peening Tool, was like Wilsons, but was in a large Air Tool. It looked like they could do a block a minute.

Two to put the block down on the floor.
Two to put the Jig in place.
One to heat the Jig, all 3 bearings.
Two guys to pour.
Two Guys to pull the Jig.
One Guy to Peen the Babbitt.
Two to pick up the finished block.

Wilson says pour a block at room Temp., can't be done, unless you want to pick all the Babbitt off the ceiling, and out of your ears.

Wilson said, they do not heat the block as a step before they pour the block. That is the misleading truth. What they did do was put on a hot Jig, and heated each bearing place on the Jig with a very large torch. So what happened was the block was well warmed up. This is the way they did it on the Model T.

The Model A was a little more refined in being poured.

Herm.

[redmodelt]

RE; Would the later caps that were tinned need to be peened? I didn't think they did.
I had this back wards, the early caps were tinned the later would need peening.

[Cape Codder]

Not knowing anything about Babbitting but sure would like to share my experiences.
Just a CAUTION to anyone interested in trying to pour your own Babbitt!
In my early days of Model A-ing a friend and I decided to pour the mains in a block I had. No experience and not finding the "facts on how to properly babbitt" like Kevin in NJ mentioned. From what I remember we did not tin nor even pre-heat the block or heat the home made jig. Just heated the Babbitt and poured. BANG!!!!!! The Babbitt blew up when it contacted the coooolllllddddd block and jig. Blew up into my friends EYE who also had the ladle in his hand. Unbelievably, he calmly handed me the ladle and then I rushed him to a doctor (he would not go to the hospital). The doctor removed the Babbitt from his eye and covered it. Told my friend to use the prescription as prescribed and return in a week. Unbelievable that he had NO eye sight lose or ongoing problems with the eye. GOD had to be watching after him on that day!!
LESSONS learned: Use eye protection! Find out "facts on how to properly babbitt". And mostly NEVER, EVER try again!!!!!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by DJ S

You've all said to do it hot but how hot is hot? My first attempt of doing this, I hit the babbitt with the KR Wilson tool and the babbitt crumbled as it was far too pliable , perhaps because it was still too hot?

I would not think it would crumble if too hot. Too cold I would think yes, wrong, old, or bad mix I also would think yes.

[ursus]

Back in the 60's I knew two guys that poured babbit as part of their routine automotive machine shop work. They used K.R. Wilson equipment and only did babbit work on Ford engines. When they later quit doing babbit the reason given was that the main bearing jigs were no longer usable after so many heating cycles with a torch and there wasn't enough volume to justify buying more jigs. Obviously, they preheated the bearing saddles.

[redmodelt]

RE; I would not think it would crumble is too hot.
If the metal is over heated when melting it gets burnt. Once it goes past a certain temperature is is no longer usable. The molecule structure changes and not for the good.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by ursus

Back in the 60's I knew two guys that poured babbit as part of their routine automotive machine shop work. They used K.R. Wilson equipment and only did babbit work on Ford engines. When they later quit doing babbit the reason given was that the main bearing jigs were no longer usable after so many heating cycles with a torch and there wasn't enough volume to justify buying more jigs. Obviously, they preheated the bearing saddles.

Only if they were using a cutting torch.

With out abuse, they will last Indefinitely!

My guess, there Babbitt was not lasting.

There is a well known Model A builder that did Babbitt, and inserts. I seen some of the work. He had to many Babbitt jobs come back, so now he only offers inserts.


Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Babbitt that is hotter then needed, will get, as we call rotten, only if left to cool by it's self you have to cool fast to keep the copper mixed.

Herm.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Babbitt that is hotter then needed, will get, as we call rotten, only if left to cool by it's self you have to cool fast to keep the copper mixed.

Herm.

Herm - back to his post, what would cause the babbitt to crumble when peening? Would the overheated "rotten" stuff crumble?

[Kevin in NJ]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Herm - back to his post, what would cause the babbitt to crumble when peening? Would the overheated "rotten" stuff crumble?

So years ago my brother was learning to pour (quite frankly I was like 11 at the time) he melted a pot of babbitt and poured. Then he chiped it out, remelted and poured again. Each time doing a post mortem on the babbitt, how well it filled the hole and such.

Now we know babbitt pouring is understanding crystal growth. You need small crystals for the babbitt to hold together. Repeated melting, slow heating and cooling, having existing crystals in the pot or ladle all lead to larger crystals. Well when you have babbitt that has had the parts separate and form larger crystals you get babbitt that crumbles easy when you beat it out.

I can take you to the old reheated babbitt and lop off a some pieces and you see these big crystals. I can do the same to a virgin babbitt and it will be harder to lop off and the crystals will be hard to see.

Guys have their ideas of how to pour babbitt. The guys doing it right have learned there is a science to a babbitt pour.

BTW, Read your early KRW catalog and they comment how their babbitt heater is special to create a fast high heat. They knew you needed to quickly get the babbitt melted to control crystal growth back then.

Types of babbitt also will work harden and break apart. If you have some lead around try bending it back and forth till it breaks. You will see some odd formations. In Europe they eliminated lead from everything. The report said any lead in babbitt is a place for micro cracks to start forming. So less lead is better. That was part of a very hard to read technical report.

Well I hope that gives some perspective. If you see broken babbitt look at the edge and notice the crystals.