Reproduction fenders

[bobscogin]

Originally Posted by pooch

Is Chinese sheetmetal drawn over inferior dies any better than USA made fibreglass?
Both ain't original parts.

That's true, but metal, even if stamped over less than perfect dies, is a lot closer to original than fiberglass no matter where it is made. Just my opinion of course.

Bob

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by bobscogin

That's true, but metal, even if stamped over less than perfect dies, is a lot closer to original than fiberglass no matter where it is made. Just my opinion of course.

Bob

I'm sure a few fine point cars started with less then perfect steel fenders and I'm also sure there were none with fiberglass.

[desotoguy]

All this about "fenders" is confusing. Would one of you guys with the poor quality fenders please post pictures pointing out what is wrong with them. Are they to wide, to long, bolt holes wrong, curvature not right, just plain don't the car? I could use repo front fenders for a 31, don't mind some metal work, just would like to have an idea before I order. If anybody wants to just git a set out of your garage, send pm, I will pay shipping.

[ericr]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Labor and production costs are lower in China, but steel is not, and die and mold engineering and materials is not much different than the US. A good tool in China is also expensive.

I spent five years in China and worked with Huawei on tens of millions of dollars worth of OEM automotive injection molds. When we first hooked up with them about 2006 they were making tooling primarily for plastic washing machine parts. I immediately saw their potential to develop quality tooling for large automotive interior and exterior parts based on their management and workforce attitudes and philosophies. They were very collaborative, and eager to improve their capability and quality.
态度 决定 一切 !

Now they are a large supplier of sophisticated large instrument panel, fascia, and grille tools to GM and other OEMs. They are still one of my favorite mold/tool shops. They are lower cost than Canadian and US tool shops, but not by a lot. Equal or better quality though. If I was going to make something like a fender or gas tank in China, I would start by looking for a similar shop in the stamping tooling business.

http://www.huaweimould.com/index.php?pagekind=other

just out of curiosity, isn't the big complication in making dies calculating for shrinkage in the final metal product? You just can't simply use an original fender for a pattern because if you did, the ultimate product would somehow end up undersized?
There was a guy based in California back in the '80s that was trying to reproduce, in stages, the Deluxe Phaeton. He did not allow for shrinkage in the process and all his products were slightly small....I know, I bought a rumble lid and roadster doors from him that were ill-fitting.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by desotoguy

All this about "fenders" is confusing. Would one of you guys with the poor quality fenders please post pictures pointing out what is wrong with them. Are they to wide, to long, bolt holes wrong, curvature not right, just plain don't the car? I could use repo front fenders for a 31, don't mind some metal work, just would like to have an idea before I order. If anybody wants to just git a set out of your garage, send pm, I will pay shipping.

With all due respect, ... I thought I did!! Scroll back to the top of this thread to post #2. It gives you a link and shows first-hand the problems and how to address them.


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[Flat32]

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I looked at the fender fit procedure Brent linked to and it looks like the repro apron got most of the modifying. Granted the fender is at fault according to what I'm reading in this thread, but is the repro apron a perfect copy or is it also at fault?

From a toolmaker's perspective and having dealt with poorly made and fitting sheet metal parts for a 1932 3 window body restoration it seems to me that relatively simple and cheap modification dies could be made for the local areas of the repro fenders needing correction. Another possibility could be making a set of apron dies to match the repro fenders.

While objectionable on many fronts a fiberglass apron made specifically to use with the repro fenders is probably the cheapest way to deal with the problem.

In my view any tool made of steel can be repaired or adjusted. An enterprising soul might find the owner of the existing tooling and what it would cost to buy them.

Ray

[desotoguy]

Thanks Brent, I must have had a bit of brain fade when I read the post. My real point is the terminology of some of the posters. I suppose it may be my Southern heritage but to post that a product is "crap" and not give more detail or pictures as to what was wrong is not the thing to do. From what I see in your pics the places which don't match and the bead can be fixed, and if one is unable to find an original set that can be repaired in 40 hours, the repo is the only choice we have. As to the "Chinese" comments, anything that is "made in China" was sourced, approved and sold by an American supplier. Maybe as a hobby we should quit buying anything that is not "Made in the USA", then the vendors would have all those parts on their shelves. Some people might be surprised that some of the better known CNC machines used in the US are Chinese made.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Flat32

I looked at the fender fit procedure Brent linked to and it looks like the repro apron got most of the modifying. Granted the fender is at fault according to what I'm reading in this thread, but is the repro apron a perfect copy or is it also at fault?

From a toolmaker's perspective and having dealt with poorly made and fitting sheet metal parts for a 1932 3 window body restoration it seems to me that relatively simple and cheap modification dies could be made for the local areas of the repro fenders needing correction. Another possibility could be making a set of apron dies to match the repro fenders.

While objectionable on many fronts a fiberglass apron made specifically to use with the repro fenders is probably the cheapest way to deal with the problem.

In my view any tool made of steel can be repaired or adjusted. An enterprising soul might find the owner of the existing tooling and what it would cost to buy them.

Ray

I used the repro splash aprons on my 31 tudor and they matched the radius of the original front fenders, about as good as could be expected. I did have a bit of a problem at the back fenders. I had to trim a small amount of the trench that the running boards fit into off at the rear. The back fenders overlapped the trench. No problem for me, I'm use to makeing parts fit... This would be a problem for the person that expects them to fall into place.

[dumb person]

How would you know that the car is not distorted? Most cars are not new old stock anymore.

[Carbroke]

Hydro-forming technology for pressing parts only require a male die half that would make the cost for developing the die much less expensive.

The male die is pressed into a sheet of metal and the female side is replaced by a tank of fluid with a strong membrane stretched over it. As the male die presses into the membrane, the fluid pressure is increased behind the membrane and the metal forms against the male die perfectly. Advantages are also gained in that the metal can stretch much easier due to less resistance so things can be pressed that were nearly impossible with typical male/female dies.

Die wear is also much less than what it was before, but because the cost to make a single male die is so much more reasonable, the overall costs to maintain proper dies is better.

[Skrain]

I once asked Bert's in Denver about the cost of a pair of 1930 Welled front fenders I saw advertised in the swap meet pages, and Steve told me that $2300 for a decent pair of original 1930 Fronts with spare tire wells was not excessive!
I wonder what the going rate for original fenders is at Hershey?
As my late partner who was in the Antiques Business told me; "Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay you for it, or what you are willing to pay someone else for it!"

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Skrain

I once asked Bert's in Denver about the cost of a pair of 1930 Welled front fenders I saw advertised in the swap meet pages, and Steve told me that $2300 for a decent pair of original 1930 Fronts with spare tire wells was not excessive!
I wonder what the going rate for original fenders is at Hershey?
As my late partner who was in the Antiques Business told me; "Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay you for it, or what you are willing to pay someone else for it!"

Last year I paid nearly that amount for one NOS L/F welled 1930 fender. Yes, $1,000-$1,200 a piece is the going price for a nice fender.

To a certain extent I agree with your late partner in that the market does generally set the price, however original parts are not being made any longer and just because someone is unwilling to pay your price this year for top quality merchandise does not mean it won't bring more next year.

In the case of a nice original fender vs. a reproduction, often times the reproduction fender will cost the same as the original fender by the time all the work is completed making the reproduction fender usable. If you are going to have the same amount in it, why not just pay for the better quality original fender?

Originally Posted by Carbroke

Hydro-forming technology for pressing parts only require a male die half that would make the cost for developing the die much less expensive.

The male die is pressed into a sheet of metal and the female side is replaced by a tank of fluid with a strong membrane stretched over it. As the male die presses into the membrane, the fluid pressure is increased behind the membrane and the metal forms against the male die perfectly. Advantages are also gained in that the metal can stretch much easier due to less resistance so things can be pressed that were nearly impossible with typical male/female dies.

Die wear is also much less than what it was before, but because the cost to make a single male die is so much more reasonable, the overall costs to maintain proper dies is better.

Is this an area where you would be able to assist the hobby by offering new reproduction fenders?

[john charlton]

I know not directly related but worth a thought . I was trial fitting front fender /splash shield /running board and nothing would line .Turned out repro running board bracket was one inch too short.

John in no change in the weather Suffolk County England.

[Stretch Cab]

Why couldn't a shop buy the fenders direct and make the changes needed? The shop could mate them to an original car to check fit and sell them at an extra charge to cover his costs and help the hobby out. This would buy some time before the dies had to be changed and end the problem of bad fitting fenders. Supply and demand for sure..................

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Stretch Cab

Why couldn't a shop buy the fenders direct and make the changes needed? The shop could mate them to an original car to check fit and sell them at an extra charge to cover his costs and help the hobby out. This would buy some time before the dies had to be changed and end the problem of bad fitting fenders. Supply and demand for sure..................

They could. I proposed that very thought about 3 years ago in French Lick, IN and offered to buy 10 sets at a time. I proposed that I could sell 10-20 pairs annually. The "hang-up" was Gaslight had/has a small dealer about 15 miles away from my shop who has been a dealer for years. They admitted that many years that dealer might only buy one fender but they feel obligated to honor their territorial agreement. I guess I understand but that little dealer is costing them, ...and the entire restoration hobby way more than they realize.

If you want to even think this through even further, they are outsourcing the well installation anyway, so they could just as easily outsource the repairs and offer them in two forms, ...ones that fit, and ones that don't. Maybe someone else in an unrestricted territory could buy in and offer this service??

[Greg Jones]

I for one will attest that most model A guys are not going to spend 1000. for a perfect fitting fender and so it will never happen.

Boy I would sure buy perfect front fenders at a grand a pop. Having restored a few front 30 and 31 Model A fenders, I can honestly say that would be a bargain. Never messed with the Gas Light fenders, though. Brent is right...at least it is a starting point.

[larrys40]

Brent, I agree with your thoughts and synopsis of the Repro fenders.... I agree that good originals are the best answer.. I just bought a set for my 68C that were off a MARC of Excellence where they were upgrading to NOS welled. Equal to the price for the repros. On the whole, there are still a few deals out there.. but it is tough to find enough for the need... and in my opinion the repros are better than not having the option. I put a set on back in the early 80's and they still look awesome. No one except for those who fP judge would know. I put a set on this spring on a fellows '30 coupe and yes, they were a ton of work.. but then... once all the issues are resolved they looked great. We are fortunate to have a supply of reproduction parts today that is way better than it was 25 years ago ( I was 28 then) and still had my "A" ten years then... without them many of the cars would not be on the road or in the condition they are in. Like Brent I am thankful someone invested the money, time, and had the passion to do what it took to get the task done. I realize the die situation and will not beat up anyone over the quality as I understand the situation and am glad to have them as an option if needed. Actually they are very cheap when you consider what they probably should be.

Happy metal working!
Larry Shepard

[kelley's restoration]

i hate to say it like this, but since its such a big price to fix the fender why not retool the splash apron....at least the front nose part
for the record....i would rather rework og fenders any day than gaslights
tk

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by kelley's restoration

i hate to say it like this, but since its such a big price to fix the fender why not retool the splash apron....at least the front nose part
for the record....i would rather rework og fenders any day than gaslights
tk

Interesting thought but I think the old saying "Two wrongs do not make a Right." would apply.

.

[kelley's restoration]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Interesting thought but I think the old saying "Two wrongs do not make a Right." would apply.

.

i agree thats why i hate to say it
tk