1929 Fordor Briggs Running Again

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally when my truck was brought out of a 50 year nap, it would only go a mile or 2 and dump water/steam out the overflow tube. Radiator was shot/plugged up.


Make sure you lube the water pump, generator (2 places) and distributor before driving it/running it much. If lube is bad/non existent does not take long to wreck bushings/bearings (speaking from experience). And consider a full fluid replacement/grease job/wheel bearing repack). Grease and oil are no longer grease/oil after sitting for storage/long periods.

[john charlton]

Before you run the engine again you MUST DROP THE PAN !!! . Pop out the dipper tray and clean everything I think you will be horrified at what you have been pumping around the engine . Clean out the valve chest make sure you do not drop any crud down the main bearing oil feed holes one each end and one in the middle . Also try to remove as much deposit on the crankcase walls . This engine has been run on straight mineral oil no detergent and after you refill the engine oil you will use an oil which will have some detergent effect this will sluice all the deposits in the engine into suspension which will circulate ,not good .Oil is cheap run the engine and have several oil changes until it shows clear on the dipstick .

John in Suffolk County England .

[GinRicky]

Ok, thanks again for the responses! To start with where I left off; I ended up with a 1983 Allis Chalmers I6 flathead forklift that ran fine initially then wouldn't start again. Normally I would have been irritated at the forklift but this time I was quite happy, as I had swapped the coils and the A now runs quite well with the previous issue gone. I read several responses but whoever said the coil was getting hot and shorting out was dead on. I have read that 12v coils with a 1.5 ohm resistance can be run ok in a 6v system without a resistor but you guys know more than I do about that. I suppose I should obtain a proper 6v coil.

To the fuel system question...I did shortcut a little there. Everything was cleaned and/or replaced except the tank. Fortunately, at least, there was very little fuel (brown varnish) left in the tank when I initially drained it. I did at least pour some fresh in there and do the old shake the chassis routine and let it sit before draining that out. It died on me one more time yesterday and I discovered that the sediment bowl wasn't refilling. After a few taps and operating the shutoff valve it flowed again and spit out a nice wad of congealed fuel pellets into the sediment bowl. After I cleaned that out, however, the flow is now strong and clean. I don't believe the fuel cap is vented; I've wondered about that, and have kept it loose. Looks like it may be time to drill a small hole through it.

To the engine oil comment, there is no way to argue with that one as is makes perfect sense to me. The one advantage I have there is a high quality shop inspection camera, so once I drain the oil I will be able to first completely inspect the crankcase without removing the encrusted gunk to access the first pan bolt. There's still ~70 year old mud and whatever else caked over much of the undercarriage, especially where adhered to lube points, etc. I had considered running a motor flush in it first but now I realize that would be rather a bad idea, thanks for the heads up John. I was pleased not to have a stuck valve as seems fairly common in ones that have sat for eons, though it was soaked for days with ATF aided by a bit of Seafoam, PB Blaster and WD-40 before being cranked by hand. I threw everything at it before any ignition was attempted.

The distributor cap does sort of move a bit rotationally and a bit of wobble in the body itself. Not much but there is some slight play.

I do wish I could keep it, we are all impressed by the solid condition, all things considered. One of my problems there would be that I live in an apartment complex. I'll take the idea under advisement. It is without doubt, however, that bringing this car back from the ground has been one of the most enjoyable things I've ever done. The first time I got it to idle real low I couldn't stop grinning. It amazed me. Roughly 2.5 months of side work at the shop and it feels like it just wants to get on the road. I used second gear a couple times and the acceleration under even light throttle impressed me, fairly low ratio I'm sure, but indicates health there.

I'll throw in some updated pictures.

[GinRicky]

https://imgur.com/a/bYQGMwZ

[GinRicky]

I do also have a first and second start video, not great resolution on the first start but you can see it fire up for the first time in probably 70 years. I said first start in 35 years but have since learned/determined that was not the case. My uncle thought his father in law had it going but after what we found it just can't have been. Highly unlikely. I used an industrial pipe threading drill to crank it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXJEbNnvqE8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KALHcpQQXG4

[1930artdeco]

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Sounds good!!!! If you are dead set to sell her, try the local model A club and or put your location in and maybe a Barner will come by and help/buy her.


Mike

[GinRicky]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

Sounds good!!!! If you are dead set to sell her, try the local model A club and or put your location in and maybe a Barner will come by and help/buy her.


Mike

Yeah, thanks. That was with the original distributor still in it, with so much shaft wobble from upper bearing failure that gapping the points was really more of a suggestion than an accomplishment. I had to bend the rotor out to close the cavernous gap that was present. It wasn't until I had the new cap in hand that I realized just how worn the contact points were, roughly half of their length was no longer present for duty.

[GinRicky]

I do wish my old friend and neighbor Richard (Dick) Wiley were still around to have seen this. Dick grew up in Versailles, KY working on Model As in his father's auto garage. Later owned an engine shop in Miami for 30 years. Man was a machinist, engine builder, general savant of things mechanical. Still did machine work on the side into his 70s. WWII vet. Built toy steamboats as a kid, really the definition of the guy that "forgot more than you will ever know". He helped me fix my first car in the driveway when I was a teen and we stayed close friends until he died. Been gone for 15 years. For the UK members, he had property in Ireland, though I no longer recall where.

Perhaps I did feel him on my shoulders just a bit, pressing me to do it right.

"Old Iron", is how he would sometimes refer to the cars I liked, and still drive today. A 1977 Ford LTD with 65K and a 351W is my daily driver currently. Original black paint still shines up like a mirror, thanks to the original Canadian owners that apparently worshipped the thing. Original dealer sticker is still in excellent condition on the deck lid. $2700 on Craigslist with 57K at the time and he'd take 25 when I called...I said yes, please!! Crazy thing still had a taint of new car smell in it, spotless cloth upholstery. Like driving around in a time capsule.

[GinRicky]

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

One other thing to check other than ignition. Did you confirm that the exhaust isn't restricted? Something about idling well but slowly dying after the revs (and air flow/backpressure) are increased make me think plugged exhaust.


I don't know why the engine would be boiling hot after a minute of driving if it idles great indefinitely if the exhaust is clear. Even with the spark all the way up it shouldn't get that hot that fast. Based on everything else the engine sounds pretty healthy

Well, there isn't any exhaust. At the start there were the remains of the complete system, but it finally gave up the ghost and fell off the manifold after the first good sustained run. I simply pulled the whole shattered remains out from under the car with a single good tug.

I still have flush in the radiator, which is by no means in what anyone would call good condition. I'm still going to drain it though and add proper coolant and a pack of GM coolant tabs for good measure. Those things are great and don't cause damage. There is coolant flow, however, and I lean toward there not being a short term problem as long as the vehicle is moving.

[GinRicky]

Originally Posted by john charlton

Before you run the engine again you MUST DROP THE PAN !!! . Pop out the dipper tray and clean everything I think you will be horrified at what you have been pumping around the engine . Clean out the valve chest make sure you do not drop any crud down the main bearing oil feed holes one each end and one in the middle . Also try to remove as much deposit on the crankcase walls . This engine has been run on straight mineral oil no detergent and after you refill the engine oil you will use an oil which will have some detergent effect this will sluice all the deposits in the engine into suspension which will circulate ,not good .Oil is cheap run the engine and have several oil changes until it shows clear on the dipstick .

John in Suffolk County England .

So, John, when the engine is idling at very low RPM I can hear things from within it. Not combustion events, rather moving components. Others have made the same suggestion as yourself but yours finally smacked me upside the head now that I am home again and can quietly think about it. I do value Truth over all else. Sort of a "whishwhishwhish" sound, which this being the only Model A I've touched I don't know what is normal and what is not. The more I think about it now, in light of your admonishment, the more I think whishwhish might not be...quite right, i.e. possible oil starvation.

I will drop the pan and remove the valve cover, but is this noise in any way normal? I should add that I was concerned enough to put a stethoscope on the engine and listened all over what I could access from the topside, including the valvetrain, but strangely (especially from my experience with the tool) I couldn't hear it except with the naked ear. I can also hear it from within the car, and pushed in the clutch figuring it would stop the noise, but it didn't seem to change it at all.

[john charlton]

When you first checked the dipstick the oil would have looked clear and golden .Had the oilpan been made of plexiglass you would have seen the bottom layer would have been black goo and under that water. Over decades in storage engines are condensation factories as yearly temperature changes the condensate water lands up in the very bottom of the oilpan . The oil pump pickup is sitting in this cocktail it has a fine screen around it . When you start the engine most likely the screen becomes partially blocked or even completely blocked .The cylinders and connecting rods are lubricated by oil flung up from the dipper tray could be in your case the noise you hear could be the pistons going up and down with insufficent lubrication . The oilpump supplies oil to the dipper tray,camshaft and valve chest where gravity feeds the main bearings through the three holes .Sadly many engines that have been in long term inactivity have been damaged by starting without a thorough engine internal clean . That golden oil on the dipstick is the killer .

John in lockdown still in Suffolk County England .

[Juggler]

Originally Posted by john charlton

Before you run the engine again you MUST DROP THE PAN !!! . Pop out the dipper tray and clean everything I think you will be horrified at what you have been pumping around the engine . Clean out the valve chest make sure you do not drop any crud down the main bearing oil feed holes one each end and one in the middle . Also try to remove as much deposit on the crankcase walls . This engine has been run on straight mineral oil no detergent and after you refill the engine oil you will use an oil which will have some detergent effect this will sluice all the deposits in the engine into suspension which will circulate ,not good .Oil is cheap run the engine and have several oil changes until it shows clear on the dipstick .

John in Suffolk County England .

Typical contents of a pan on a car that has been sitting a while

https://youtu.be/jbqW6uHpASM

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Do not think it has been mentioned. When the oil pan is dropped the oil pump falls out. There is place to put in a NPT bolt in the side of the motor to hold the oil pump up into the block. Do not use a standard thread bolt as it will strip the threads in the block.
https://www.brattons.com/oil-pump-holder-tool.html





The oil pump has a screen filter. Clean the oil pump screen .

[Chris in WNC]

Gin- you need to get in touch with Richard Wilson and James Rogers, both in the Asheville area. If you cannot reach them on the board, PM me for their contact info.
If I were still over there, I'd be your go-to guy or even a possible buyer.
My experience in the 8 years I lived near Asheville was that the local club was not particularly active or helpful.
We have been looking for an excuse for a road trip to Asheville.
I will PM you my contact info so we can chat about this......

[GinRicky]

Originally Posted by john charlton

When you first checked the dipstick the oil would have looked clear and golden .Had the oilpan been made of plexiglass you would have seen the bottom layer would have been black goo and under that water. Over decades in storage engines are condensation factories as yearly temperature changes the condensate water lands up in the very bottom of the oilpan . The oil pump pickup is sitting in this cocktail it has a fine screen around it . When you start the engine most likely the screen becomes partially blocked or even completely blocked .The cylinders and connecting rods are lubricated by oil flung up from the dipper tray could be in your case the noise you hear could be the pistons going up and down with insufficent lubrication . The oilpump supplies oil to the dipper tray,camshaft and valve chest where gravity feeds the main bearings through the three holes .Sadly many engines that have been in long term inactivity have been damaged by starting without a thorough engine internal clean . That golden oil on the dipstick is the killer .

John in lockdown still in Suffolk County England .

Right, what you say of course makes perfect sense to me. There was, however, no "golden" oil on the stick at any point. I haven't changed it yet, and it hasn't actually been driven on the road like that. Only thing I did with the extant oil was a simple finger viscosity test. This whole project has grown for me; originally the goal was simply to get the thing running and driving to at least a minimal extent with what I had been told, that it had been in a driving condition 35 years prior. As things have developed I now realize that was not the case. Everything about the car I have found indicated to me that the last effort made ca. 1984 was half cocked at best, I don't believe it has run let alone moved under its own power since being barned ~70 years ago. It isn't being run any more until properly serviced as you have said. No argument against the logic there.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

When you drain the oil, after the oil has drained stick a finger up in tthe drain bolt hole and feel around. Ether way as said above, drain, let it sit overnight so when you take the pan off you get less drippage on you, Put in the NPT oil pump retaining bolt so the oil pump does not drop when removing the pan, remove the pan and clean. Do not use paper or cloth rags (lint is a bad thing), clean the oil pump filter screen, clean out the valve galley behind the valve cover. Clean the three small passages in the bottom rear bottom of the valve galley using pipe cleaners. Once reassembled remove the distributor and pour a quart of oil in teh hole (primes the motor), add 3 quart via the oil breather tube. Run for a very short time (minute or 2) and check/add oil as needed

[dumb person]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_W1SChRCuE

Eww old oil.

[GinRicky]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

When you drain the oil, after the oil has drained stick a finger up in tthe drain bolt hole and feel around. Ether way as said above, drain, let it sit overnight so when you take the pan off you get less drippage on you, Put in the NPT oil pump retaining bolt so the oil pump does not drop when removing the pan, remove the pan and clean. Do not use paper or cloth rags (lint is a bad thing), clean the oil pump filter screen, clean out the valve galley behind the valve cover. Clean the three small passages in the bottom rear bottom of the valve galley using pipe cleaners. Once reassembled remove the distributor and pour a quart of oil in teh hole (primes the motor), add 3 quart via the oil breather tube. Run for a very short time (minute or 2) and check/add oil as needed

Yes, good instructions there. My first job was at a high performance marine engine building shop, tearing down and cleaning big blocks all day throughout the process. That part of it will be old hat, fortunately. No way I would introduce lint; brake clean, a wire brush assortment and scotch bright pads are the first things that come to mind. Nice to know about the pump. That would have been an unfortunate surprise. Thanks again.

I did make one error which became immediately apparent. I bought a proper 6v coil, which didn't want to start and then barely ran the engine. Duh. I have a "modern" distributor now, so as I see it there's a 6v charging/starting system and a 12v ignition system currently operating the engine. Seems to run beautifully with the 1.5 ohm 12v coil. Apparently all that would be needed to complete the conversion is a 12v generator, but I'd rather not fool with that if it isn't necessary.

[GinRicky]

Originally Posted by dumb person

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_W1SChRCuE

Eww old oil.

Wow. This is one of those things I probably wouldn't have considered beforehand, but now that I've been told of the issue it seems obvious.

[RandyinUtah]

I once brought back to life a 1912 original unrestored Model T that had sat for many years. After doing all the regular work it started and ran for a short time then quit. Turned out that mice had packed the tail pipe and muffler full and made a home. After cleaning the old gal ran ok.