Another Original 2-Blade Fan Takes Its Toll

[JoeWay]

Our club attended the Northern Ca Spring Opener in Ukiah recently. On the way home, one member lost a blade from his original fan. It wiped out a nearly new Brassworks radiator and put two dents in the upper right hood panel.

This fan had been wet-Magnafluxed at an aviation repair shop and certified free of cracks, yet failed within about 1400 miles of installation.

Guys and gals, take those original welded blades off unless you're about to enter judging. Which reminds me, IMO it is WAY past time for the standards to allow reproduction fan blades.

Joe

P.S. According to the adjuster, his Grundy insurance will cover all the damage except for the broken fan blade itself.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

[Bruce in southern OH]

Several years ago, I drove my 31 Vicky to church, on way home no problem, stopped to let son get paper out of paper box, he said there was water coming out of hood loovers, drove 300 more feet to park at house, opened hood and the two blade fan had ate the radiator, got me, cost a lot to fix and never was the same fit with different radiator, get them out before someone is killed by a bad blade, Bruce

As far as look alike, I don't care, let us see one, Bruce

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

...How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

Depends greatly on price. The aluminum 2-blade fan is up to about $50.

I'd guess a lot of people including me would be in at $75 or so. Not so many at $100 or more.

Joe

[PO51]

I would be interested

[Dennis Pereira]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I would within reason.

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

If the price and quality were good, I would be interesred!

[Deluxe Delivery Don]

Me too! I would buy one also because the body work repairs would be alot more. $75.00 to $100.00 would then be cheap

[peters180a/170b]

A guy that i know has been working on this idea of a Authentic STEEL 2 -blade fan for a year now.. What is holding him up in the AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS .Everything else there is no problem. I just spoke to John and he plans making a trip to Ford Headquarters and see is there is some kind of blueprints. Brent send me a email or call and maybe your guy and my guy can hookup and share ideas and $$$$. We need only 1 person to do this in this kind of market.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

A guy that i know has been working on this idea of a Authentic STEEL 2 -blade fan for a year now.. What is holding him up in the AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS .Everything else there is no problem. I just spoke to John and he plans making a trip to Ford Headquarters and see is there is some kind of blueprints. Brent send me a email or call and maybe your guy and my guy can hookup and share ideas and $$$$. We need only 1 person to do this in this kind of market.

I suspect the manufacturer I speak of is lurking and will be reading this at some point.

What has me curious is what is AUTHENTIC WELD SPOTS? Using the analogy as above, Aries mufflers are not "exact" due to manufacturing costs but they are "close enough". Stipe's shocks are not "exact" because he made some slight internal modifications to improve on design and/or reduce production times. They are "close enough" to get the job done. My point is that IMO, sometimes we need to be careful while swallowing the camel that we don't choke on a gnat. Otherwise these ideas kinda stagnate just sitting on the drawing board.

.

[peters180a/170b]

Brent , the weld spots around the hub/fan blade to hub. Having a hard time doing the same spot welds.Other then that all is good to go.

[Steve Wastler]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

What if I were to tell you that someone is seeking feedback on possible manufacturing of a NEW reproduction stamped steel 2 blade fan. How many here would step-up and buy a brand new 2-blade fan that would be look authentic enough to pass as NOS?

Feedback??

.

I'D be in for two steel fans

[MikeK]

Hate to be the naysayer, but NO. Price is not the concern, reliability is. OK, so it's new and you reset the cycles-to-failure clock, but it is still stamped steel flat stock and will fail from cyclic work hardening.

Now, if it was a vacuum investment cast nickel-titanium alloy single piece with controlled grain structure, like jet engine turbine blades are made, I'd pay $1,000 for one in a heartbeat. If made this way, every detail, including seam weld and spot weld marks could be reproduced exactly. It would be a perfect visual (J.S.) match, pass the magnet test, be 10x as strong, and likely have a M.T.B.F. of 100,000 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. As a plus, on addition to dynamic ballancing, the air thrust balance between the two blades could be near perfect.

Vacuum Investment Casting Overview Link Here: http://www.consarc.com/pages/vpic.html

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Hate to be the naysayer, but NO. Price is not the concern, reliability is. OK, so it's new and you reset the cycles-to-failure clock, but it is still stamped steel flat stock and will fail from cyclic work hardening.

Now, if it was a vacuum investment cast nickel-titanium alloy single piece with controlled grain structure, like jet engine turbine blades are made, I'd pay $1,000 for one in a heartbeat. If made this way, every detail, including seam weld and spot weld marks could be reproduced exactly. It would be a perfect visual (J.S.) match, pass the magnet test, be 10x as strong, and likely have a M.T.B.F. of 100,000 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. As a plus, on addition to dynamic ballancing, the air thrust balance between the two blades could be near perfect.

Vacuum Investment Casting Overview Link Here: http://www.consarc.com/pages/vpic.html

Well, in all true honestly, I ain't a metalurgist nor do I profess to know anything regarding what you say about the cyclic work hardening so I will yield to your knowledge in that regard, however one or two thoughts do come to mind.
Since we mentioned mufflers earlier in this thread, we'll bring that analogy up again. We can buy the cheapie muffler for less than a $100, --or we can buy a steel Aries for about double the price of the cheapie. One could make an argument that both are made of steel and are 'expendible items' so why bother with paying twice as much for the Aries?

To me, the same mindset could be applied to discussions about shocks, or tires, or piston rings, or patch panels, ...or many other things. I guess it really boils down to perceived value.

I realize that $200-$300 for a fan seems like a lot of money, but in today's society of manufacturing, I don't think less than $100 will be enough to cover Design, Tooling, R&D, and all the R.O.I. Would you not agree that probably 1000 units is a realistic market for these for the life of the tooling?

Jim may have an excellent point that the aluminum unit is the best alternative in fine-point & touring class where the owner would understand going in there will be a point deduction but that the alloy fan is allowed.

.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Well, in all true honestly, I ain't a metalurgist nor do I profess to know anything regarding what you say about the cyclic work hardening so I will yield to your knowledge in that regard, however one or two thoughts do come to mind.
Since we mentioned mufflers earlier in this thread, we'll bring that analogy up again. We can buy the cheapie muffler for less than a $100, --or we can buy a steel Aries for about double the price of the cheapie. One could make an argument that both are made of steel and are 'expendible items' so why bother with paying twice as much for the Aries?

To me, the same mindset could be applied to discussions about shocks, or tires, or piston rings, or patch panels, ...or many other things. I guess it really boils down to perceived value.

I realize that $200-$300 for a fan seems like a lot of money, but in today's society of manufacturing, I don't think less than $100 will be enough to cover Design, Tooling, R&D, and all the R.O.I. Would you not agree that probably 1000 units is a realistic market for these for the life of the tooling?

.

Yes Brent, perceived value. I have no issue no mater what the new fan costs- $1 or $1,000. I simply won't use it at any price point because it doesn't provide the one thing that would be a plus for me- increased reliability vs. a stock fan.

To me, in a fine point car an original fan is 100% reliable and I would see no benefit from any replacement fan. Why? Realistically, a car in fine-point is a low hour, slow speed car and will not see accumulated hours of fast highway touring. Has anybody ever had an excellent original fan break in fine point during judging or on the mandatory tour? Despite all the broken fan horror stories, there are still plenty of excellent originals, I have a few of both the early and late design. Sure, a pitted, cracked, welded, ground, bondo filled fan painted to look new is a bomb, but does anybody laying out the bucks for fine-point really do that? Then maybe the new fan fits their perception of value.

If you do intend to regularly tour with a car, then I see either an excellent original or the new steel fan as equally suspect in long term reliability, and both unacceptable to me. Same basic design and materials = same failure mode. For touring you need a different fan, IMHO.

Perceived value. To my eye, those lousy aluminum repops stick out like a sore thumb with their thick edges, and are not the answer either, at any price point. One can spot it a mile away. It REALLY gets me when I see one of those aluminum trying-to-fool-you fans, and then follow the fan belt around to an alternator! Whats the point? In my mind, you get more respect just running a plastic fan rather than trying to fool almost nobody with the aluminum propeller. If you replace the original fan for increased reliability, I just don't see a new steel propeller fan as any better for someone who will do a lot of driving.

Cyclic work hardening - C'mon Brent, you do know what that is. Flex a fender at the bead a gazillion times on bumpy roads and it cracks. Or flex a fan blade by varying the load on it every time engine speed changes. Eventually, Crack!

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by MikeK

...Despite all the broken fan horror stories, there are still plenty of excellent originals...

Mike, how do you propose the restorer identify an "excellent original" fan?

The guy whose fan started this thread has been restoring Model As, and collecting parts, for over 45 years. He is very selective and conservative. I have seen him cut defective parts in two, or otherwise render them unusable, to make sure they would never end up in use on a car.

He picked an apparently good fan. He cleaned it to bare metal, found no visible flaws, then had it wet-Magnafluxed by a qualified shop. It was certified crack-free...yet it failed in about 1400 miles of medium-speed touring. No pits, no cracks, no welds, no grinding, no bondo--yet it failed.

What else should he have done? What else would you do? My feeling is that one CANNOT be positive that an original welded fan is good. They are all subject to catastrophic failure at a moment's notice. Failure is certainly more likely on a motor that is operated at higher rpm, but can happen at any time on any motor.

Joe

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Yes Brent, perceived value. I have no issue no mater what the new fan costs- $1 or $1,000. I simply won't use it at any price point because it doesn't provide the one thing that would be a plus for me- increased reliability vs. a stock fan.

To me, in a fine point car an original fan is 100% reliable and I would see no benefit from any replacement fan. Why? Realistically, a car in fine-point is a low hour, slow speed car and will not see accumulated hours of fast highway touring. Has anybody ever had an excellent original fan break in fine point during judging or on the mandatory tour? Despite all the broken fan horror stories, there are still plenty of excellent originals, I have a few of both the early and late design. Sure, a pitted, cracked, welded, ground, bondo filled fan painted to look new is a bomb, but does anybody laying out the bucks for fine-point really do that? Then maybe the new fan fits their perception of value.

If you do intend to regularly tour with a car, then I see either an excellent original or the new steel fan as equally suspect in long term reliability, and both unacceptable to me. Same basic design and materials = same failure mode. For touring you need a different fan, IMHO.

Perceived value. To my eye, those lousy aluminum repops stick out like a sore thumb with their thick edges, and are not the answer either, at any price point. One can spot it a mile away. It REALLY gets me when I see one of those aluminum trying-to-fool-you fans, and then follow the fan belt around to an alternator! Whats the point? In my mind, you get more respect just running a plastic fan rather than trying to fool almost nobody with the aluminum propeller. If you replace the original fan for increased reliability, I just don't see a new steel propeller fan as any better for someone who will do a lot of driving.

Cyclic work hardening - C'mon Brent, you do know what that is. Flex a fender at the bead a gazillion times on bumpy roads and it cracks. Or flex a fan blade by varying the load on it every time engine speed changes. Eventually, Crack!

MikeK,
Once again ...thanks for sharing your knowledgable perspective to this thread! 'CYCLIC WORK HARDENING' ..just how hard is that to understand to help put a stop to the general use of this poorly designed fan! I'm with you on buying the titanium bladed fan, but not a redue of a failed design!

[skip]

Hartzell Fan inc Piqua Ohio. Hummmmm
They make aeroplane propellers and industrial fans.
They have the engineering.
And test lab
And know how
They just need to assess the need
That would be all of us
Can they make a buck on it

skip.

[Midwest Tin]

Hi, What are your thoughts on the Late 31 fan blade. Has anyone had any trouble with running a late 31 fan blade? Jim

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Midwest Tin

Hi, What are your thoughts on the Late 31 fan blade. Has anyone had any trouble with running a late 31 fan blade? Jim

This type of fan was simply an alternate design (supplied by Holley I believe). It was used concurrently with the Ford design and was not chronological replacement.

I haven't studied that later fan closely but it appears to be essentially the same design in the hub area. The biggest advantage to the Holley design is there is no place for internal corrosion in the main blade area as it's a single thickness. This DOES provide one major benefit. The Ford design fans typically (probably 95%+) have substantial internal corrosion between the layers. If you look closely at one you will see the outer 2-3" of one or both blades bulged and distorted. This causes imbalance among other problems.

That single issue seems to provide the later type fan with a significantly reduced failure rate. However some still fail. The other issue that contributes to failure is bent/distorted fan blades. This is NOT obvious with a purely visible inspection. The problem with these unique looking propeller fans is that the neatly shaped fan blade make a very comfortable HANDLE! Over the years (or decades) most fans have been used to turn (or attempt to turn) the engine over when trying to zero in on the timing mark with the pin. I can't believe the number of times I've seen this done! How much can these fan blades take before the blades become distorted? Of course it will not occur with the two blades evenly. Besides the undesired stress placed on the blades at the hub, this creates a functional imbalance between the blades. Yep, MORE problems!

All these problems can be identified with proper inspections but I only know of 3-4 people that have ever done so. A decent machinist will measure crankshaft journals to see if they are round and/or tapered, or measure ring gaps before assembly. However they will likely look over a fan closely, say "gee, that looks good" and assume it is! Magnafluxing wont mean a thing except to tell you if you need to have your eyeglass prescription updated!

One thing I find very interesting is the number of folks that claim "there was no crack there this morning but but the blade just went!" I've seen MANY (abused) fans on swap meet tables over the years with a crack measuring 1/8"-1/4" long. Funny, the fan blade is still attached. How can that be if they fly right off when the crack begins? Hmmm, I'll have to figure that one out.

With all that said I won't recommend anyone else run an original fan. I don't want to be called to task for the decisions of others and the resulting success or failure. It also won't hurt my feelings to have more fans to choose from on the swap meet tables!

As a final note, I had a friend that I helped complete the restoration on his '30 Deluxe Roadster in 1975. He put the original fan back on the car at that time. Before he died he had put about 90k miles on top of the 70k miles already on the car. Yep, about 160k miles on the fan! He drove the car across the USA as well as many "short" trips of 1500+/- miles each way and he DID NOT have an overdrive! Yes, I'm sure that fan will eventually fail but when? 200k miles? 250k? I have no idea.