Smokin

[mccsix]

OK so the car won't shut off with the key, so I buy a replacement sw and install...no change.
Go start it yesterday AM and it starts ok starts to smoke behind the dash. I shut down with a master cutoff sw I have under the dash. Unscrew the chrome dash cover and feel for hot wire. I find the red wire to the ign sw is hot. So I remove it and see if the car will start/smoke.....it does both.
This getting serious, so again I hit the cutoff sw and ck the heat on all the wiring behind the chrome dash. All the wires are hot.
When I replaced the ign sw to start all 3 wires to it were put back in the same pole location, nothing crossed or mis placed.
So I have a direct short some where in this very simple wiring. The ammeter looks intact not burned that was my 1st thought for a short but not sure.
I can't keep activating the sys or something going to melt down and it will happen very quickly.
The car is 12v system.
I guess I could disconnect everything but not sure about ability to re wire correctly. The car has a new wiring harness through out except for a couple of add on red wires to the coil...all installed by PO. red wire to coil is only one currently disconnected and the black wire going from the ign sw to the ammeter seemed to smoke the most.
I am going to disc that black wire and try that next. If the car runs and doesn't smoke I think its the ammeter gone bad if not, not sure where to go next.

[Patrick L.]

It shouldn't be too hard the problem, simple system. You can do it.

One place to look is the back of the switch [ I'm assuming its an aftermarket type] to make sure it isn't making contact with the fuel tank. This is kinda common. Make sure the wires are intact and in good shape and insulate between switch and tank. Most times just bending the switch contacts will fix that problem.

[pbishop]

As Patrick stated, pull the instrument panel away from the dash (gas tank) and look for signs of contact on the tank. If you see it, then the bend and tape of connections is an easy solve.


Since you are running a 12v system, have you changed over to negative ground? If so you can also open the battery access panel, loosen the positive terminal a bit so you can quickly pull if off to end 'short' while you chase down the problem. As the positive terminal runs right to the starter I have an aftermarket fuse plate there as well. Only saying that is a safeguard I have, and I also have an inline fuse leading to my alternator.


Good luck and let us know what the problem turns out to be.

[nkaminar]

I would advise to quit smoking as it can lead to health problems.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

I would advise to quit smoking as it can lead to health problems.

Well , his car sure has some health issues right now doesn't it.

[burner31]

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I put two layers of electrical tape behind the switch on the gas tank as extra insurance when the same issue happened to me.
And yes, I'm using an after market switch (for now), as most of them are junk

[mccsix]

Burner....are you saying the key ign sw was contacting the dash?
The problem is getting worse the more I get into it. Wire in bundle going to the starter got so hot on one one of my "lets see if its fixed" startups that it caught fire.
All future troubleshooting is restricted to visual/on paper only.
Car is pushed out of the garage to work on but at 85 I'm struggling to move it.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by mccsix

Burner....are you saying the key ign sw was contacting the dash?
The problem is getting worse the more I get into it. Wire in bundle going to the starter got so hot on one one of my "lets see if its fixed" startups that it caught fire.
All future troubleshooting is restricted to visual/on paper only.
Car is pushed out of the garage to work on but at 85 I'm struggling to move it.

We're all saying the switch connects/wires may be contacting the dash/fuel tank. And have said how to fix it.

Checking the wiring is not hard. A wiring diagram is readily available.

[nkaminar]

Bend the tabs on the switch so that they cannot contact the metal behind them. Insulate the contacts with several layers of electrical tape.

When done with the above, disconnect the battery and use an ohm meter to test the wiring, looking for shorts. Do not test the wiring by trying to run the car.

Ask someone with electrical experience to help.

[Bob C]

The car as originally wired should not have a wire from the ammeter to the
ignition switch. Can you post some pictures of the engine area so we can see
what modifications have been made to the wiring.

[ryanheacox]

Originally Posted by mccsix

When I replaced the ign sw to start all 3 wires to it were put back in the same pole location, nothing crossed or mis placed.

I guess I could disconnect everything but not sure about ability to re wire correctly. The car has a new wiring harness through out except for a couple of add on red wires to the coil...all installed by PO. red wire to coil is only one currently disconnected and the black wire going from the ign sw to the ammeter seemed to smoke the most.

I agree with Bob, there shouldn't be a wire from the switch to the ammeter. Also, there should just be two wires off of the ignition switch, power from the coil and the wire to the points. My guess is that the extra wires from the PO are at fault or at the very least confusing all of us here.

[nkaminar]

Unless, of course, the switch is wired to power the coil when on like a modern car. In that case a wire will run from the load side of the junction box to the switch and then to the coil. A wire could bypass the junction box and run directly from the load side of the ammeter to the switch.

There is a short somewhere.

[mccsix]

The car ran well for over a year, until recently. After I change the coil (only coil wires swapped) problems began. I would like to put up a number of pics but my clunky camera and the resizer pgm that keeps hiding my pics.
Here are a couple. The 1st pic shows wire completely burned through, a black wire out of the loom to the starter.
The 2nd dash pic shows a fabric covered black wire that really got hot going from ign sw to ammeter.
This the setup the has run w/o any problems for past year.
I have replace the new hi v coil, with orig coil just to try to get back to some workable baseline. I will remove the wire from the ign sw to the ammeter and not sure where to go from there.
So far there is only one destroyed wire which I can easily replace and a couple more I'll replace out of caution.. But that doesn't fix the problem.

[nkaminar]

Gene,

Sit down with a pencil and a piece of paper and draw out your wiring diagram. Trace each wire. Label the color of the wires and show all the components, such as the ignition switch and ammeter and coil and points. Then, with the battery disconnected, measure the resistance to ground of each wire. When you do this see that the points are open or put a piece of paper between the points. Also do it with the points closed. Measure the resistance to ground with the ignition switch off and with the ignition switch on. The problem should become clear.

[DJ S]

Originally Posted by mccsix

The car ran well for over a year, until recently. After I change the coil (only coil wires swapped) problems began. I would like to put up a number of pics but my clunky camera and the resizer pgm that keeps hiding my pics.
Here are a couple. The 1st pic shows wire completely burned through, a black wire out of the loom to the starter.
The 2nd dash pic shows a fabric covered black wire that really got hot going from ign sw to ammeter.
This the setup the has run w/o any problems for past year.
I have replace the new hi v coil, with orig coil just to try to get back to some workable baseline. I will remove the wire from the ign sw to the ammeter and not sure where to go from there.
So far there is only one destroyed wire which I can easily replace and a couple more I'll replace out of caution.. But that doesn't fix the problem.

There's your problem. As others have mentioned, you should not have a wire from the ammeter to the ignition switch. There should be a wire (short/black) going from the terminal box to the negative side of the coil. The other side of the coil (positive) should have that red fabric wire connected to it. That same wire is connected to one side of the ignition switch. The other red plastic wire should be connected to the other terminal on the ignition switch.

[mccsix]

Ok slowly but surely I'm diving in. The wire between ign sw and ammeter is gone, I notice how loose the 2 poles of the ammeter are to their case, removed the ammeter took it apart and the posts can touch the case, I know that's not right, also the needle is welded to gauge face.
Now whether all this caused or are the result of the overheat is ??

[Bob C]

Here is a wiring diagram.

[mccsix]

Thanks Bob
The armored cable that goes to the distrib is there to grd the system with key in the off position,Right?
At the dash end my cable is cut off and an elec wire is attached to the cable. The wire goes to the coil and the metal cable end goes into the distrib???

[Bob C]

OK seems the switch is controlling the hot side of the coil instead of the ground from the points. It needs to be wired this way if you are using the ignition switch to
supply switched power to some accessory.

[Badpuppy]

Yes, your coil is switched on the hot side with the points connected directly to (-) coil terminal. Battery is connected from the ammeter to the switch (burned black wire). Since the wire is burned, I'd say the short has to be past the ammeter.

The "accessory" is the alternator regulator - the smaller red wire goes to pin 1 of the alt. connector through a diode so the alt begins charging without having to rev up the engine.

[nkaminar]

The wiring diagram that Bob supplied is for a stock system. This is not what you have. From your description of the ammeter, as Bad Puppy said, it is probably the problem. Do you have an ohm meter? Very easy to determine where the short is with an ohm meter.

[mccsix]

Here's what I am working with. A couple of wires are burned through and a couple need to replace because of heat.
W/o a 12v diagram to work with I'm just replacing each wire one at a time end to end.
After I get my replacement ammeter I'm going to connect the terminals together, w/o the gauge, and give it a smoke check.
Also I need to know if the armored cable to the distrib can be cut and have a wire crimped to it?

[Patrick L.]

There is no wiring difference in voltage, only polarity with regards to ammeter and coil.

be careful of repro ammeters. most are junk

Why do need to mess with the primary cable [ armored cable] ?

[nkaminar]

Why don't you use an ohm meter to find your short? So simple.

[mccsix]

I have an ohm meter but not much experience in troubleshooting with it. Right now my ammeter is doa, and 2 wires are burned through and need replacement.
So at this point there isn't any point in ohm-ing anything, until I replace the wires,and by-pass the ammeter.
I know that the burned wires out can give me a trail to the short and I hope with my limited elec experience that I can finish the repair without smoking anything else. I just wish I had a local model A bud to look over what I'm about to do.

[nkaminar]

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Gene,

Are you anywhere near western North Carolina. I would be happy to visit you to help if you are within reasonable distance.

[mccsix]

Located just N of Pensacola Fl

[nkaminar]

Sorry Gene, too far to drive.

I looked for a video that would show you how to search for a short with your ohm meter but they are all oriented towards modern cars. So here is a short tutorial by yours truly.

There will be a setting on your multimeter that indicates ohms. If you have a way to set the scale set it on ohms not kilo ohms or mega ohms. If it is automatic just leave it alone.

You may have to change the red wire on your multimeter to the ohm socket. The black wire can just stay in the common socket.

Disconnect the battery. Put a piece of paper between the points. Turn the ignition on.

Touch the two leads together and you will get a reading close to zero, like 0.03 ohms. The reading indicates the inaccuracy in the meter but don't worry, it will not effect the results.

Now put one of the leads on a good ground point on the car. It will be a shinny metal part. If you can, clamp the lead to the ground point because you don't have to move it to do the test. Put the other lead on another shinny metal part to test the ground point. You should get a reading close to 0.1 ohms if there is a good ground at both points.

Now take the other lead and touch it to the end of a wire. If the meter reads OL that means that there is no short in that wire. If it reads a low reading, anything around 0.1 ohms, there is short to ground.

If that wire is OK, then test another wire. If you find a short to ground, start disconnecting the ends of the wire, one end at a time, and re test. When the ohm reading is OL you have found your short.

If you have any questions about any of this, please feel free to write me a personal message (PM).


I will ask that others chime in on their suggestions on how to use your ohm meter. I may have missed something.

[Badpuppy]

That's a pretty good tutorial, nkaminar.

That rat's nest at the firewall was not what I expected to see. Not a good conversion job, even if it did work for a long time. You need to straighten it out and clean it up and find out what's connected to what in order to make sense of it.

[Badpuppy]

Is that the speedometer cable running through the junction box opening? You need to get it out of there and run it correctly through a grommet near the upper floorboard and secured inside the firewall with a clamp.

[Badpuppy]

deleted

[nkaminar]

Bad Puppy, good catch.

It would be nice if someone could go help Gene. I would but I am too far away.

[Badpuppy]

Trying to load an image, but doesn't work. See my pm.

The loom wire in post #13 you say is black and the wire in post #22 that looks green should be the same wire; used to be yellow.

You asked if the wire from the dist. could be shortened; I suppose it can, but not worth the trouble. I looks like the skinny replacement armored wire which you can just loop a couple times and connect it to the coil. I don't know why it's run inside.

Also need to identify what the thing is with two #6 wires connected to it. Does the starter have a solenoid?

[nkaminar]

Bad Puppy, First photo post 13 shows a normal starter switch on the starter motor. The item in the photo in post 22 on the firewall looks like it may be a battery switch. There is another item with a red wire on the firewall next to it that I cannot identify.

If it was my car I would be tempted to rip out the wiring and start over. It does not look like Gene has the fuse on the starter switch which would have saved him a bunch of toasted wires.

I wished I lived close by so that I could help Gene in person. There must be someone near him with some electrical knowledge that can help in person.

[katy]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

There is another item with a red wire on the firewall next to it that I cannot identify.

To me it looks like an older ballast resistor.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...T%2BEmZYPl4%3D

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Bad Puppy, First photo post 13 shows a normal starter switch on the starter motor. The item in the photo in post 22 on the firewall looks like it may be a battery switch. There is another item with a red wire on the firewall next to it that I cannot identify.

If it was my car I would be tempted to rip out the wiring and start over. It does not look like Gene has the fuse on the starter switch which would have saved him a bunch of toasted wires.

I wished I lived close by so that I could help Gene in person. There must be someone near him with some electrical knowledge that can help in person.

Yep, me too.
It wouldn't take too much to get somewhat period correct wire and and start cutting and soldering. An afternoon and a couple beers should do it.

It would also be nice if questions were answered.

[Badpuppy]

Originally Posted by katy

To me it looks like an older ballast resistor.

Sure does. Run a 6V coil through the resistor, bypass it during start. Like Chevy used to do - damn things burned out all the time. But I don't see where the other end connects to.

[Patrick L.]

He could very well need the ballast if using a 1.5 ohm coil. But that shouldn't be causing his problem. Its easy enough to check the ballast.

If he started rewiring first thing this morning it would be done about now.

[mccsix]

Been tied up with other family problems so I've had to backburner the A.
I still read and appreciate everyone opinion and advise, but I don't have time or energy to tear it all out and do it better or right. I just want to getting it running again whether its a farmers fix or not.
At 85 I don't have the stamina to crouch, bent over to replace wiring under the hood, against the firewall, inside or in the eng compartment.
I know I haven't kept up with enough feedback to help you help me. But I appreciate all the help you've given me.
RE: that resistor there is no wire on one side and the wire on the other side goes to one side of the ign sw?????????

[Badpuppy]

Originally Posted by mccsix

RE: that resistor there is no wire on one side and the wire on the other side goes to one side of the ign sw?????????

That resistor was probably wired to a previous 6V coil, should remove it and the wire from the ign. sw. Unused hot wires spell trouble.

Also wonder about all the red wires at the starter post. They need to be sorted as well.

[mccsix]

I'm trying to sort it with y'alls help. So far I have removed the resistor & wire and a another wire from the ammeter to the ign sw. I have a new ammeter not installed, old one had terminal insulators melted so posts touched the case.
Does anyone have elec diagram for a 12v conversion.? if I had that I would change out that rats nest of red wires on the firewall, one wire at a time.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by mccsix

I'm trying to sort it with y'alls help. So far I have removed the resistor & wire and a another wire from the ammeter to the ign sw. I have a new ammeter not installed, old one had terminal insulators melted so posts touched the case.
Does anyone have elec diagram for a 12v conversion.? if I had that I would change out that rats nest of red wires on the firewall, one wire at a time.

As previously stated, the normal 'A' wiring diagram is all thats needed. No difference in 6v vs 12v except polarity, coil[maybe] and bulbs.

Points are grounded the same as the battery whether + or - .



Bob posted a diagram in #17

[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by mccsix

Ok slowly but surely I'm diving in. The wire between ign sw and ammeter is gone, I notice how loose the 2 poles of the ammeter are to their case, removed the ammeter took it apart and the posts can touch the case, I know that's not right, also the needle is welded to gauge face.
Now whether all this caused or are the result of the overheat is ??

Remove the ammeter from the circuit! take the two wires that were connected to the ammeter and connect them together with a bolt or something, tape the connection so there is no chance of shorting, and then see if things still smoke, Just sayin!

[mccsix]

exactly what I was thinking...thanks

[mccsix]

Before I start ripping out wire here's my plan, if you see something wrong or missing pls let me know.

I have an alt not gen so delete the wire to cut out.

Attach wire to disconnected distrib steel cable then to one side of ign sw.
Run wire from ammeter to + coil, other side (-) ammeter goes to ign sw.

Run wire from starter, to left side j box term, then other term of ammeter to right side j box.
Run wire from starter to left side (+) j box
Run a wire from alt output to jbox (-)

I will tape the ammeter leads together to omit the gauge until I do a smoke check on my new rats nest

[Bob C]

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Originally Posted by mccsix

Before I start ripping out wire here's my plan, if you see something wrong or missing pls let me know.

I have an alt not gen so delete the wire to cut out.

Attach wire to disconnected distrib steel cable then to one side of ign sw.
Run wire from ammeter to + coil, other side (-) ammeter goes to ign sw.

Run wire from starter, to left side j box term, then other term of ammeter to right side j box.
Run wire from starter to left side (+) j box
I will tape the ammeter leads together to omit the gauge until I do a smoke check on my new rats nest

No, that wire goes to the alternator output.

[mccsix]

So I need a wire from alt output to the j box (-) right?

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by mccsix

So I need a wire from alt output to the j box (-) right?

Yes

[Badpuppy]

Your car has been changed to negative ground, which means the polarity must be swapped at the ammeter and coil, opposite of what standard drawings show. The ignition switch originally was wired between the points and coil; for some reason the PO rewired the switch to go between the battery and coil, as you found it, but I see no reason to do so. I would go back to original switch wiring - connect the armored wire to one side of the switch, the other to the red wire in the loom, and connect the other end of the red wire to the (-) post of the coil. The (+) post then connects with a short black wire to the (vehicle) right side j-box post with the yellow-black wire from the alternator.

I would also replace the cutout to firewall loom -
https://www.mikes-afordable.com/product/A14406.html
to replace that burned wire between starter and junction box.

[mccsix]

Whew....lots of adj to the pgm. Got to sit down and incorp this into orig plan so I have a step by step written guide.

[katy]

Don't worry about the connections to the ammeter, If you connect them backwards the meter will just read backwards. Easy to fix.

[mccsix]

Thanks to all who take the time to help someone out. I re-writing my notes to make the changes, I hope we're at the bottom so I can get on with the effort, but I have ordered the harness from Mikes because of damage from the fire to adjacent wire..