Very early V8 engine, later mounts

[denson1932]

Here attached pixs of (3) versions of 33-34 clutch-brake pedal assys. I assume Left to Right is early 33, 33, 34. Also pixs of front crossmember in 33 frame but bolted in and front crossmember in 34 frame rivited in.

Looking for 33-34 3WC body even 'glass is fine...

[denson1932]

Assuming that the frame VIN number was stamped to match the transmission housing VIN stamping, can you post a picture to show the transmission (clutch housing) VIN stamping and the style of clutch inspection cover?

[DavidG]

With respect, your photos do not show a '33 front cross member as both the bolted-in one and the riveted-in one are '34 front cross members. Please note that in both instances the cross member flares to the rear outboard of the motor mount insulators whereas on a '33 front cross member the rear edge follows the insulator around and then directly toward the frame side rail (like in Robb's photo). This is why true '33 V-8 engine splash pans are longer at the front than true '34 V-8 engine splash pans.

The photo below is of an unaltered '33 front cross member of the later version Robb's car was likely built with that required the use of the one-piece water inlets/motor mount brackets. Note the difference in the cross member's leading edge in its center and the different gussets on each side in the front. While not as clear as desired, the difference on the sides on the back of the cross member does show.

[JM 35 Sedan]

What has been missing from the beginning of this thread are pictures posted by Rob. I asked for this in post #2 and finally in posts #22 & #27 we have two pictures that helped explain a lot about this car, but it would have helped tremendously to have some key pictures of many other areas in question. A guessing game is fun, but I am wondering what is the reluctance on Rob's part to post more pictures here?

[rockfla]

As I have followed the thread, I read that weather conditions were somewhat prohibitive to taking pictures (JM35). But agree that "pictures are worth 1000 words!"

[RobbHelf]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Hi Guys,
Can't tell you how appreciative I am for all your comments and helpful knowledge. I need to do 2 things to clear up some of this guesswork and help you guys.. Take better pix of the crossmember this time and tear apart the floorboards to get at the trannie and pedal assembly for some pix. Give me a few hours and you'll have pix tonight. The Temp here is -6 below zero, so I have to work fast. Stay tuned.

[RobbHelf]

David G,

Great photo and terrific reference for what I'm need to look for.

[denson1932]

Thank you David for the 1933 VS 1934 front crossmember info...if you look at my pixs you can see that the bolted-in crossmember in my '33 frame does indeed have the correct 1933 "diagonal" gussets instead of full "triangulated" 1934 front gussets but... as you pointed out, the crossmember itself is a '34 replacement crossmember...

[RobbHelf]

I'm back with new photos that I hope solve the frame/X-member query. On the left photo the 3 rivets in a row are evident. Also, I checked my pedals and they are bolted on. It is so damn freakin' cold out in my garage I won't be able to take out the wood floor tonight for pedal/arm pix and transmission cover shots. Stay tuned for those tomorrow. The distributor question still needs answering, too
Also, on the aluminum heads...
on the right side 40-??49, on the left side 40-??50.
The ?? stands for: indecipherable, as the stamping is so light it's worn off. And I really mean stamping. These numbers are not raised as if they were cast. They are stamped as very thin font. No other numbers after.

[David J]

Definitely a 33 crossmember and RIVETED IN . Rivets look gennie and that says a lot about this car to me . The heads you describe are one of the early types DavidG mentioned . The other type is in a post of mine in your thread at the V-8 club forum . In your second pic the 33 only dimple in the inner fender has a hole in it - does the fender have this hole also ? This hole is for the early type fender brace that goes on the crank guide casting with ears . On the pedal pads is there a nut under the pedal ? Early 33's take pedal pads like 32's . Late 33's are like 34 and up and the pads just screw in . Dave

[RobbHelf]

Hi Dave,
That is great to know. '33 X-member! Yes, the pedals are bolted on with a nut. I'm not sure I know what you mean and see in that second photo referring to the dimple? Can you explain a little more. (Sorry for the bad picture)
BTW, I do have the the crank casting with the ears on it.

[DavidG]

Great photos for the purpose at hand. The front cross member is the one the car was built with; it has not been replaced. Both shock absorbers are originals and the front fender braces are round in cross section, like they should be for a mid-model year '33.

Those part numbers on the cylinder heads are cast in despite not being raised. As long as they do not have suffixes they remain as likely of '33 origin.

One unfortunate aspect of your photos is that your engine splash pans on either side of the oil pan (attached to the chassis frame rails) are long gone, which is not unusual as they tended to be left off if any exhaust system or starter motor repairs or replacements took place in the past.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the pedal details given the weather as their version will not add materially to your knowledge of your car's origins.

The transmission case remains a question, but given your engine number it could be either a run-of-the-mill '32 V-8 case with only a grease cup for the clutch release bearing or the late '32 V-8 case with a square inspection hole in the case with a stamped steel cover over the hole with the grease cup in the upper center of the cover. This change in the cases took place gradually starting in September, 1932 and wasn't 100% until engine #18-198978 built on October 19, 1932.

I also remain curious about the distributor as the '32 variety was designed for use with cast iron heads, but could be used with aluminum heads by replacing the shaft and centrifugal weight assembly with the '33 version.

In addition to the changeover from cast iron heads to aluminum heads, it would appear from your first photo that the longer head studs used with aluminum heads have been installed on your engine. In the one example shown, both the stud and thick washer beneath the nut on the stud are correct for a '33 with aluminum heads.

The list of things changed from a stock '32 engine to what you have has grown considerably.

[DavidG]

David,

Good spotting on the dimple hole! I missed it. Here's one you missed. The radiator-to-front cross member bolt heads are upside down suggesting either a not unheard of factory screw up or that the radiator had been removed for repairs or replacement.

Most of the wiring in the photos is original and in poor condition. It should be replaced as it is unsafe as is.

[RobbHelf]

Hi David, I'm convinced that you may know this model year like the back of your hand.
It's fascinating to hear all the knowledge spew out and level all conjecture and mystery with such conviction. I'm humbled by all you guys.
I'm doing my best to uncover the telltales for you all in hopes of gaining a true idea of the history of my car. You are doing this because you are all passionate and generous folks. Thank you so much!
A few questions still remain...I'm now confused about the heads. Are you thinking that based on my serial # (sept. 1932) that these aluminum heads replaced cast iron ones at some point later? Also, what are these suffixes that were added on following the part number forged on the heads?

[David J]

Originally Posted by RobbHelf

Hi Dave,
That is great to know. '33 X-member! Yes, the pedals are bolted on with a nut. I'm not sure I know what you mean and see in that second photo referring to the dimple? Can you explain a little more. (Sorry for the bad picture)
BTW, I do have the the crank casting with the ears on it.

First pic is 33 with hole like yours . I'm talking about the dimple above the slot for the newer type fender brace rod . Second pic is next generation 33 with dimple but no hole in it . Notice the slot for the newer style fender brace rod is at a different angle . 33 front fenders have this dimple also . Third pic is common 34 and it has no dimple and is different in many ways . There are at least 7 variations of these 33-34 . The nuts on the pedal pads eliminates the need to dig further there , Yours is as it should be .

[David J]

Originally Posted by RobbHelf

Hi David, I'm convinced that you may know this model year like the back of your hand.
It's fascinating to hear all the knowledge spew out and level all conjecture and mystery with such conviction. I'm humbled by all you guys.
I'm doing my best to uncover the telltales for you all in hopes of gaining a true idea of the history of my car. You are doing this because you are all passionate and generous folks. Thank you so much!
A few questions still remain...I'm now confused about the heads. Are you thinking that based on my serial # (sept. 1932) that these aluminum heads replaced cast iron ones at some point later? Also, what are these suffixes that were added on following the part number forged on the heads?

First pic is a dash A without Ford script or a gen two of this type . Second pic is a no suffix like yours or a gen one of this type . Guess the pic isn't the best - sorry but you get the idea The longer studs and gen 1 heads on yours tells me the heads may well have been switched BEFORE the motor was put in your car . Just a guess of course . This is one car I would like to hear tell it's story . Car itself is shaping up to be normal earlyish 33 production . Hey David If I would have known I would be critiqued by the master I would have been more attentive . David J

[DavidG]

Robb,

Thank you for your compliments, but despite his modesty, David J is the thespian and I am but a neophyte. We both seem to be cursed with being more observant than is good for us. Hopefully one day he and I will collaborate to create something to make up for the short shrift that '33s receive in the Early V-8 Club's current book on the topic. I agree wholeheartedly with his (educated) guess that the cylinder head studs and heads were changed before the engine was first installed in your car. We don't always agree, however. For example, my examination of the original engineering releases for '33-'36 aluminum cylinder heads suggests that an aluminum head with any suffix at the end of the part number is a post-'33 head.

Back to your car; when it warms up enough to venture forth for more photos, please add a photo of your fuel pump to the list.

Thanks.

[RobbHelf]

To both Daves:

You guys are great. Thanks again for your help and interest. Based on your comments here today, I'm pretty sure we can come to some conclusions and start to wind down this tread a bit, then of course, only if you are tired of this speculate thinking. I still want to get some shots today of the trannie box as this will answer all of the questions that have been flying around this posting.

I can see now that pictures do stimulate and solve most everything when it comes to production mysteries. After I post the trans. box photos I would like to come up with a solid statement about the production of my car. Maybe that can conclude this thread. Out to the frozen tundra of a garage I go...

[RobbHelf]

To no avail, I was not able to take out the wooden floor in the '33. Got all the screws out but it seems like the upper tan cardboard and fasteners needed to come out too. Way too cold and labor intensive to do today. Maybe you guys feel you nailed it as far as dating this power plant and chassis. Sorry for no pix!
Nevertheless, if you allow me to draw up a plausible scenario from all the expert opinion shown here...then you guys can do a final edit and I would be ecstatic.

Sept. 1932: Production lines are slow. A 1932 engine block goes to assembly. Passes tests. Transmission case tamped 18-178825 and crated.
Oct. 1932: production slows down, engines are at a surplus.
Nov: 1932: First 1933 comes off the line.
Winter 1932: Production slows way down.
Jan-Feb 1933: Production picks up
March 1933: Old cache of stored engines starting to be used. (First crated in storage area would be last ones out, right?). Frames with new X-member to accept new motor mounts now in plants.
18-178825 gets new aluminum heads and new chassis stamped 178825 (no 18- prefix).
All else on the car in its current state seems to signify a March 1933 production date.
How'd I do? Please feel free to add or correct my short synopsis.

[DavidG]

Robb,

You may be able to reach up and feel the upper part of the transmission case and by touch determine whether or not your case has only the grease cup (as shown in the photo below -- ignore the shift lever housing as it is strictly '32) or the steel hole cover plus the grease cup.

As for your list of sequence of events, no '33 model production took place prior to January, 1933. I don't know where the November, 1932 idea comes from except perhaps that since the first engine designated as a '33 was produced in November the thought was that it went directly into a vehicle. (That is contrary to how automobile companies normally operate, but it did occur at the start of the '32 model year because of the delays experienced in producing a production quality V-8 engine.) There was no reason in November, 1932 not to revert to the normal practice of building a substantial inventory of components before Job #1 of the 1933 models; recall that nearly everything at that time was manufactured in southeastern Michigan and had to be shipped to the network of assembly plants across the U.S., including both coasts, by rail.

According to the Rouge Engine Plant (the only plant producing engines in the U.S.) log, the first '33 model V-8 engine was #207867 on November 14, 1932. The first '33 model V-8 engine with aluminum cylinder heads was #208788, also produced on the same day. Some '32 engines were still produced that day as well with their numbers falling in between the two numbers above. The engine plant was shut down at the end of that day and no additional V-8 engines were produced until the plant started up again on December 19, 1932. An oddity that David J has already mentioned is that those first '33 model engines carried the prefix "40", not "18", a practice that was short lived as the use of the "18" prefix was soon reinstated.

There is a fair amount of evidence that while FIFO inventory control likely was the objective, the actual practice of Ford, even in the Rouge complex, did not conform to that objective. I do not believe that your conjecture in that regard is supportable by archival evidence, but rather I recommend that you ride with a temporarily "lost" engine scenario. Given that your chassis frame is not the earliest '33 version thereof, the first in, first out scenario is not a very good fit.

I should add that your '33 is not alone in likely having been produced with a '32 engine as I've heard of several others over the years and I was reminded this morning in going through some photos that I once had a '33 roadster with a '32 engine in it. Unfortunately I am far away from the paper work which would have its engine number.