Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-15-2021, 11:51 AM   #41
BUBBAS IGNITION
Senior Member
 
BUBBAS IGNITION's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SPEEDWAY INDIANA
Posts: 4,086
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilohertz View Post
Thanks Jim. What I have read is the late 80's and into the 90's GM ECM is desirable. I have a 1995 GM1500 with a 350 in it, would that make a good donor for distributor and ECM? Is it the same vintage you were thinking of?



I have the Offy and Fenton 4 bbl manifolds, I'm sure one of them would work...and yes, I am looking for either a 2.8L or 4.3L TBI body.



Would this suggest you are using a "speed density" system,or does the MAF system use MAP sensor as well?

Thanks for the guidance Jim.

Cheers
yep that system will work well and you have all the sensors . a harness from Larrys and yer done .....
__________________
If it Makes Spark, we do it !!!!
www.bubbasignition.com
jimlinder@juno.com
BUBBAS IGNITION is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2021, 12:56 PM   #42
demiller
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Langley BC
Posts: 2
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Would this suggest you are using a "speed density" system,or does the MAF system use MAP sensor as well?

Thanks for the guidance Jim.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

A mass air flow(MAF) system would be more desirable than a speed density. I know that a late 80's early 90's Chrysler MAF sensor is also a MAP sensor, my old man memory is not sure if GM and Ford also are. The weakness of the early GM ecms was the fuel maps were all in the prom to change one that the self tuning wouldn't correct the prom had to be change. The aftermarket may have had a tuner that with the aid of a laptop could change the maps on the fly...never having been a GM guy I couldn't say. The Fords of the same era had a covered service port on the ecm where aftermarket "tuners" could be attached to modify the fuel and timing maps. The 5.0L Mustang guys were their target costomers
demiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 02-19-2021, 11:38 AM   #43
HotRodmicky
Senior Member
 
HotRodmicky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 242
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Henry View Post
Here are a few pictures of my setup. The throttle bodies are Ducati S4R and have one injector each that squirts in below the throttle plate. I swapped the green top Ducati injectors for yellow Subaru injectors that flow ~50% more fuel, as I found the duty cycle was close to maxing out on the originals. Megasquirt is a little tricky to get the hang of and uses TunerStudio running on a laptop for tuning. I bought the 'full' version for a few dollars and it has an autotune function that helps get the fuel map dialed in. There is no way I could got it working without that feature! Other hassles:
running a fuel return line, installing a high pressure electric fuel pump (I put mine in the stock tank), and fitting the trigger wheel to the 8ba crankshaft pulley. I originally tried to run the ignition with Petronix in the distributor and Megasquirt as the coil driver, but couldn't get it to work well. The Ford EDIS system is a little older now but very robust and works great. This was my first conversion. I've since done the same on my Corvair and it was much easier thanks to lessons learned! Each conversion has to be at least $1500, though I don't dare try to add up receipts for any of this. I'm on the younger side for the flathead crowd at 42, which might explain part of the draw to fuel injection; tired of fuel drying up in the bowls or percolating on a hot day and flooding the engine! The driveability is about the same otherwise. Power is up slightly but that's more attributable to going from the stock single to dual intake manifold I think... Ken


DEB4B753-9179-4C19-A7A7-0254C2A6C133 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


34197E50-A571-49B3-AAF6-8E28AC49C26C by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


0A123251-307B-42A6-BCB7-1AFA70AF1D46 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr
Hi ,
Great set up !
do you have a part number for the yellow subaru injectors?
Because they dont look like the " normal" injectors that i know .
HotRodmicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2021, 06:43 PM   #44
Ken Henry
Senior Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 131
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Thanks! I believe they are 04/06 wrx sti injectors, ~550cc/min. They are ‘side feed’ style which is unusual, but fits the throttle bodies I have. Ken
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2021, 03:25 AM   #45
HotRodmicky
Senior Member
 
HotRodmicky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 242
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Cool ,thank you.
What coil packs do you use and how did you mount the trigger wheel to the 8ba pulley?
Last question :-) how do you mount the trigger sensor ?
Tia
Micky
HotRodmicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2021, 11:48 AM   #46
Ken Henry
Senior Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 131
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
The coils packs are from a late 90s Ford Explorer. They are fine but take special spark plug wire boots, available from Kingsborne wires. In retrospect I would use late 90s Chrysler coil packs, which use standard boots.


The trigger wheel is 6 3/4" diameter from diyautotune.com. I bored out the small center hole so that it would slip over the hub on the backside of the crank pulley, and brazed it around the perimeter at three locations.


The sensor (stock Ford VR) is mounted using a two piece aluminum bracket that bolts to the 7/16" holes just inboard from the driver's side water pump. I mounted mine slightly too high and had to whittle down the sensor body to clear the belt! Sorry: this is the best picture I could get!



A772FC73-578C-4782-9812-EC4AD0352756 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2021, 08:07 PM   #47
Kilohertz
Member
 
Kilohertz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Slightly left of Vernon, BC
Posts: 71
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

I just pushed another truck home with my Bobcat...he he. A 1994 Ford F-150 4x4 auto. All I needed was the brake pedal and my neighbor said I had to take the whole truck. It has a MAF 302 in it so it could be usable for something, brakes are good on it and it's a 4x4 so can probably sell some stuff from it to help pay for other flathead items.



I also drove my 1995 Chev truck that another neighbor gave me last year, down the hill yesterday after I plowed 2' of snow off the trail. Damn thing fired right up. Gotta love fuel injection. It's what I have decided to use for the injection system on the flathead. GM late 80's and into early 90's are very popular and easily tunable and parts are readily available. This truck has everything I need except for the 2.8L GM throttle body. I should be able to find one of those locally.


More later.


Cheers
__________________
1949 Ford F-47 with a '51 EAB Flatty, GM distributor with vacuum advance, and a grey shop cat, Spot.
Kilohertz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2021, 10:54 AM   #48
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 1,101
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

[QUOTE=Ken Henry;1985560]Here's another shot with the air cleaner on. You can also see the PCV valve (blue) at the front and fuel pressure regulator on the firewall. The doodad marked SiemensVDO is an idle air control valve and works in feedback loop to regulate the idle speed. Next up will be some EAB heads with a tight squish area and eventually a Mercury crank!!

Hi Ken,


What did you use for the air cleaner please?


Great looking Ford Ken!


Glenn
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2021, 11:04 AM   #49
Ken Henry
Senior Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 131
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Thanks Glenn! I ordered a 12" aluminum air cleaner from ebay and an extra top. For the base, I bored two holes in the correct position for the two throttle bodies. You should be able to see some hex standoffs at the top of the throttle bodies on some of the pictures. These are for securing the base down to the throttle bodies, which is done with the velocity stacks removed since the openings in the air cleaner base are smaller than the tops of the velocity stacks. Then the velocity stack pop in along with seals where they pass through the air cleaner. I'll try to post a picture later. I might go to a taller air cleaner since I have plenty of room under the hood... Ken
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2021, 11:10 AM   #50
Ken Henry
Senior Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 131
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilohertz View Post
I just pushed another truck home with my Bobcat...he he. A 1994 Ford F-150 4x4 auto. All I needed was the brake pedal and my neighbor said I had to take the whole truck. It has a MAF 302 in it so it could be usable for something, brakes are good on it and it's a 4x4 so can probably sell some stuff from it to help pay for other flathead items.
Cheers

Definitely get the EDIS parts from the Ford. I really like mine. Does the 95 Chevy truck throttle body have injectors incorporated? If so it might be an easy way to go. I think it is less of a problem to use too big of a TB compared to too big of a carb... Ken
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2021, 11:32 AM   #51
Kilohertz
Member
 
Kilohertz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Slightly left of Vernon, BC
Posts: 71
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Hi Ken,

Thanks, yes I will be pulling the complete 5.0L engine and EDIS system from the Ford. I also have a '88 F-150 with the speed/density system as another option. I have 20 acres so it's no problem keeping these intact for now...easier to move around.

As I got the '95 Chevy running so well yesterday and it's in such good condition, I'm going to keep it as my farm truck. Yesterday I found a complete 1990 C1500 truck at the wreckers and have made a deal to pull the whole ECM TBI system from it, including the 1227747 ECM which is the desirable, tunable ECM. It has been converted to propane but I don't think that is a problem, I'll still find the right TB unit, there are lots around and as you said, they are not as critical as far as CFM is concerned as carbs. The 2.8L TBI is 240 CFM, the 4.3, 5 and 5.7 are 500 CFM and the fuel injectors are what really control the fuel delivery, anywhere from 28 lbs/hr to 85 lbs/hr so I could use the 500 CFM TB with the smaller injectors if need be. The nice thing about the 2.8L TB is that their bores are 1 3/8" vs 1 11/16" of the 500CFM units, which is a better match for the Merc manifold.

cheers
__________________
1949 Ford F-47 with a '51 EAB Flatty, GM distributor with vacuum advance, and a grey shop cat, Spot.

Last edited by Kilohertz; 02-25-2021 at 11:38 AM.
Kilohertz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2021, 12:21 PM   #52
Ken Henry
Senior Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 131
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

I run two 550 cc/min (52 lb/hr) injectors with 8 squirts per engine cycle, simultaneous, and it works OK. The injectors are just barely in the linear part of their input-output range at warm idle and the duty cycle is OK at full throttle. This was necessary because with the design of the intake manifold and throttle body adapters, each injector sprays into both planes of the manifold. You will be better off, with each injector spraying into a different plane... Might I suggest two 2.8L TBIs on a dual carb manifold?!?! Good luck! Ken
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2021, 12:39 PM   #53
glennpm
Senior Member
 
glennpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Wiscasset, Maine
Posts: 1,101
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Thanks Ken!



I have two 97's with the little filters. I noticed the observation about flow with them and though I'd look into one larger one. I appreciated your info.


Glenn
glennpm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 04:32 AM   #54
HotRodmicky
Senior Member
 
HotRodmicky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 242
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Hi Ken , where can i buy that stromberg bolt pattern to "Ducati" adapters?
They dont look homemade....
Micky
HotRodmicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 08:08 AM   #55
Ken Henry
Senior Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 131
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Hi Micky, I used an adapter made by Thickstun and had my friend with a mill modify the 1 barrel side do that the inside and outside diameters matched the throttle body base. I think I got my adapters on eBay... Ken
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2021, 12:48 PM   #56
Kilohertz
Member
 
Kilohertz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Slightly left of Vernon, BC
Posts: 71
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

I went to the wreckers yesterday and pulled the whole TBI system from the 1990 C1500 truck and started cleaning it up and stripping out all the superfluous wires and connectors etc. I discovered I forgot to remove the knock sensor but will probably buy a new one if I decide to use it as it is mounted right below the exhaust manifold in the block water jacket and is a bugger to get to. The ECM will operate just fine without it, it just won't retard the timing as it senses a knock as it would in the stock engine. If I program the spark curve correctly, it probably won't be an issue anyway. I mean the 8BA distributor didn't have a knock sensor.

So my question to the community is regarding a block drain on the 8BA engine. From what I have found they were on the water pump mounting area but I can't seem to find any pictures or descriptions of where they are. I also found that they were not used in later engines, mine is C1BA and is 1951. I was thinking that if the area that had the hole drilled could still be used, I may be able to use that for the knock sensor. I don't want to start drilling without knowing what I am doing.

Could someone familiar with these block drains let me know more about them? Exactly where they are/were and is it safe to drill a hole where it was located?

Cheers
__________________
1949 Ford F-47 with a '51 EAB Flatty, GM distributor with vacuum advance, and a grey shop cat, Spot.
Kilohertz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2021, 01:11 PM   #57
Ken Henry
Senior Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 131
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

I'm not familiar with tuning the GM ECU but my Megasquirt installation doesn't use a knock sensor and, with the low compression ratio of most flatheads, I doubt you there would be much advantage to using one. Advance at WOT should increase from around 5* at 500 rpm to 20-22* at 2000 rpm and above.
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2021, 09:13 AM   #58
HotRodmicky
Senior Member
 
HotRodmicky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 242
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Well, a big cc flathead with low octane fuel will knock.... bad chamber design.
Happend to me when we traveld to Wales for the Pendine Sands racing.
Best cure is 102 octance German fuel. Second is octane booster.
I run 24 degrees at 2000 rpm. Nothing radical.and not needed.
But i also think that a knock sensor is not needed.
HotRodmicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2021, 11:39 AM   #59
Kilohertz
Member
 
Kilohertz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Slightly left of Vernon, BC
Posts: 71
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

Okay, well that's great news, I'll forget the knock sensor and carry on.

I continued cleaning up the harness yesterday and brought a 4.3L throttle body unit home to play with until I find the 2.8L one. I have all the sensors and such and am ready to start assembling the system, I just need to find that elusive Merc manifold. I know of 2 but am waiting for a road trip to get one.

Ken, your suggestion of having each injector spray into only one side of the manifold is definitely my plan and I may go even one further. I found that the GM ECM has 2 different injector drive signals but they always fire at the same time in original configuration. As I work my way thru understanding the EPROM code I am going to try to find a way to fire each injector separately, I'm not sure how important this is, but if I can batch fire 4 cylinders at a time instead of 8....just thinking out loud. I know the wet manifold isn't the best design.

Cheers
__________________
1949 Ford F-47 with a '51 EAB Flatty, GM distributor with vacuum advance, and a grey shop cat, Spot.
Kilohertz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 10:39 AM   #60
Ken Henry
Senior Member
 
Ken Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 131
Default Re: Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

I bet it will work just fine batch firing both of your injectors four time per engine cycle given that they are shooting into different planes, but I totally understand your desire to make it 'theoretically' better! I'm doing a bunch of minor modifications to my system right now that I doubt will change much, but should look a little 'cleaner'. If you decide to pick up a Megasquirt ECU it can definitely alternate injector firing between the two circuits. I had mine set up that way at first but it didn't work well due to my single plane manifold I think, with one injector closer to the rear cylinders and one closer to the front. Can you use a WB O2 input into the GM ECM?
Ken Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:11 AM.