The Ford Barn

RobbHelf · 04-20-2015, 08:04 AM

Gentlemen,

I'm in need of some diagnostic help.

First off, a background of what we're dealing with:
A '33 Fordor sporting its original Sept '32 block. It accompanies a post style generator, Model 40A distributor and Ford script coil, Detroit Lubricator carb and AC fuel pump, all original and correct for the engine of this time. These components have all been rebuilt and were put on this past weekend with much success.

The engine starts like a champ. One push of the starter button and the engine jumps into a purring idle, unlike it has ever done before. After a brief warming period, I initiate a drive.

I immediately have no problems with acceleration until maybe 10 minutues into the drive. Then as I pull away from a stop... in first gear, the engine bogs down. As it gets up to speed the carburetor pops and backfires. Even in second gear the same happens. I'm expecting it has everything to do with the fuel/air mixture. After another 5-10 minutes the problems are apparently here to stay and get worse. At a stop light the engine dies. Cannot get it started. Needed a tow back home.

I did not replace the plugs. These could be fairly old. Not sure when my dad put those in but was wondering if this could also be part of the problem.

Any suggestions??

Kurt in NJ · 04-20-2015, 08:28 AM

When you first start it check the spark at the plugs, see how far it will jump ---then when it acts up check again, make note how far and the color of the spark ---if the spark gets weak you have to deal with that before playing with fuel ---modern production condensers don't don't seem to be consistantly good, break down when hot

does working the choke improve how it runs

have you tried loosening the gas cap, perhaps the vent is clogged

just b ecause spark plugs are old doesn't mean they are bad ---have you looked at them, checked the gap, are they burning black in the center or white, with good spark the area where the spark jumps will be grey if it is black with little spots of grey the spark could be weak

replacing too many parts at the same time can add to your problems

have you looked at the filter screens to see if there are debris in the system

RobbHelf · 04-20-2015, 03:20 PM

Hi Kurt,
Have not checked the spark jump distance or checked the burn areas on the plug. Will be doing that now for sure.
I have been aware of the dangers of replacing too many parts at once. That makes diagnosis a pain. Overall, I think this problem can be overcome – just need a little advice pertaining to this intake manifold setup I have. I am using a plastic fuel line filter just before the fuel pump. Lots of crud in there right now. This was a brilliant idea by my brother. Also, the choke does affect the way she runs. No problem there from what I can ascertain.

Tom Walker · 04-20-2015, 03:45 PM

Well Robb what Kurt says about too many ideas may confuse the issue. But let me throw one in there in case you want to consider it.... those symptoms may seem lack of fuel, but when I first got my '32 going, it did what you descibe every time I drove it. I could drive about 5 miles then it would pop and fart and stop. Would only restart when cold.

The answer came from the sage Barners after a lot of searching..... if you ve got an original coil in there which is starting to break down, , they work fine when cold, but when they warm up, they stop working. I put on a modern coil conversion and it cured it straight away.

A simple test is to pull off some plug leads when running well cold. Should have good spark. When it starts to mis behave, stop and do plug check. If spark has gone weak, coil is the problem. Get it re built.

Good luck!

RobbHelf · 04-20-2015, 04:18 PM

Hi Tom,
That sounds to me like a very good and perfect comparison to my problem. I'm scratching my head now because I had the original Ford script coil rebuilt by Skip Haney in Florida. He's supposed to be the go-to guy for coil rebuilding. Checking those plugs seems to be the next order of business or just get a new set of plugs to go along with the new wires I just put in. Any recommendations on a great set of plugs for this '32 engine? Thanks for your help!!

Tom Walker · 04-20-2015, 05:02 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Ha well don't come to me for diagnostics! I'm sure Skip Haney coil is good. Condenser??

CC33 · 04-20-2015, 05:29 PM

I had the exact same problem on my '33 V8. Changed out the condenser with the Napa one and things were perfect. You will have to insert a brass screw secured with a lock washer and nut where the condenser inserts into the coil. Then place another lock washer and nut to secure the spade tip of the replacement Napa condenser. You ground/mount the condenser on one of the mounting screws of the coil. Worked fine!
Check search history for Napa part number referenced for this application.
I would start with this before tearing things apart.
Also, buy 2 and keep one in the glove box.

DavidG · 04-20-2015, 05:34 PM

Robb,

Out of curiosity, how do you know that you have a September, 1932 cylinder block given that the blocks carried no markings as to their date of manufacture during that period?

Thanks.

Dave

RobbHelf · 04-20-2015, 05:40 PM

This is the second time this advice has passed my way. Sounds like a great place to start and cheap too. I believe the NAPA part is IH200. I can only hope it could be this simple!!

Thanks very much to CC33 and Tom Walker!!

Bruce Lancaster · 04-20-2015, 05:41 PM

Condensers can and do die the same way as coils...function happily cold, fade out as heated, return to good after a rest.
Look at the spark produced cold, then again when the engine is just about to die. I would expect the cold test to show a fat blue spark and the moribund test a thin yellow one, testing by pulling off one plug wire and letting spark jump 1/4" or so to ground.

On the possibility of a fuel problem...when car is starting to act up, you can do a lot of fuel mixture diagnosis with the choke (enrichment circuit on your DL), as the symptoms would point toward a lean mixture. While car is acting up but not yet dying, pull out choke a bit at a time and see if that improves performance at all. You of course don't have a normal "strangler" type choke, but the enrichment mechanism should do the same thing. If no results, back to the electrics.

RobbHelf · 04-20-2015, 05:45 PM

Hi again David,

Maybe I misstated that. The engine transmission cover and frame are stamped 18-178825.
Flat front (no recesses) and vertical petcock. In books on production that earmrks it Sept. 1932. That right?

RobbHelf · 04-20-2015, 05:51 PM

Thanks Bruce! Sounds like another easy troubleshoot exercise to do.

DavidG · 04-20-2015, 07:16 PM

Robb,

September, 1932, it was. It must have been misplaced in a corner somewhere for three or four months as Job #1 for '33 models wasn't until January, 1933. If your '33 doesn't have a lot of early '33 characteristics then its hibernation in inventory was even longer. Interesting!

RobbHelf · 04-20-2015, 08:56 PM

Evenin' Dave,

Yup. That was the scuttlebutt this past winter when I threw this serial number and details on my car out into the "Barn". Many guys came in with the similar thought this assembly being crated and stockpiled at one of the plants. Possibly when production became so slow at the end of '32 in those Depression times, Ford stacked a bunch of the fall assemblies up in some warehouse. Who knows? Interesting for sure!!
My car was produced in March, at the earliest, since it has the one piece motor mount/water outlet port brackets. That's the most obvious telltale. Fun stuff, huh!

04-20-2015, 08:28 AM	#2
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,157	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 When you first start it check the spark at the plugs, see how far it will jump ---then when it acts up check again, make note how far and the color of the spark ---if the spark gets weak you have to deal with that before playing with fuel ---modern production condensers don't don't seem to be consistantly good, break down when hot does working the choke improve how it runs have you tried loosening the gas cap, perhaps the vent is clogged just b ecause spark plugs are old doesn't mean they are bad ---have you looked at them, checked the gap, are they burning black in the center or white, with good spark the area where the spark jumps will be grey if it is black with little spots of grey the spark could be weak replacing too many parts at the same time can add to your problems have you looked at the filter screens to see if there are debris in the system

04-20-2015, 03:20 PM	#3
RobbHelf Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Cedarburg, WI Posts: 97	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Hi Kurt, Have not checked the spark jump distance or checked the burn areas on the plug. Will be doing that now for sure. I have been aware of the dangers of replacing too many parts at once. That makes diagnosis a pain. Overall, I think this problem can be overcome – just need a little advice pertaining to this intake manifold setup I have. I am using a plastic fuel line filter just before the fuel pump. Lots of crud in there right now. This was a brilliant idea by my brother. Also, the choke does affect the way she runs. No problem there from what I can ascertain.

04-20-2015, 03:45 PM	#4
Tom Walker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Leicester. UK Posts: 404	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Well Robb what Kurt says about too many ideas may confuse the issue. But let me throw one in there in case you want to consider it.... those symptoms may seem lack of fuel, but when I first got my '32 going, it did what you descibe every time I drove it. I could drive about 5 miles then it would pop and fart and stop. Would only restart when cold. The answer came from the sage Barners after a lot of searching..... if you ve got an original coil in there which is starting to break down, , they work fine when cold, but when they warm up, they stop working. I put on a modern coil conversion and it cured it straight away. A simple test is to pull off some plug leads when running well cold. Should have good spark. When it starts to mis behave, stop and do plug check. If spark has gone weak, coil is the problem. Get it re built. Good luck!

04-20-2015, 04:18 PM	#5
RobbHelf Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Cedarburg, WI Posts: 97	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Hi Tom, That sounds to me like a very good and perfect comparison to my problem. I'm scratching my head now because I had the original Ford script coil rebuilt by Skip Haney in Florida. He's supposed to be the go-to guy for coil rebuilding. Checking those plugs seems to be the next order of business or just get a new set of plugs to go along with the new wires I just put in. Any recommendations on a great set of plugs for this '32 engine? Thanks for your help!!

04-20-2015, 05:02 PM	#6
Tom Walker Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Leicester. UK Posts: 404	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Ha well don't come to me for diagnostics! I'm sure Skip Haney coil is good. Condenser??

04-20-2015, 08:04 AM	#1
RobbHelf Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Cedarburg, WI Posts: 97	Acceleration problem on a '33 Gentlemen, I'm in need of some diagnostic help. First off, a background of what we're dealing with: A '33 Fordor sporting its original Sept '32 block. It accompanies a post style generator, Model 40A distributor and Ford script coil, Detroit Lubricator carb and AC fuel pump, all original and correct for the engine of this time. These components have all been rebuilt and were put on this past weekend with much success. The engine starts like a champ. One push of the starter button and the engine jumps into a purring idle, unlike it has ever done before. After a brief warming period, I initiate a drive. I immediately have no problems with acceleration until maybe 10 minutues into the drive. Then as I pull away from a stop... in first gear, the engine bogs down. As it gets up to speed the carburetor pops and backfires. Even in second gear the same happens. I'm expecting it has everything to do with the fuel/air mixture. After another 5-10 minutes the problems are apparently here to stay and get worse. At a stop light the engine dies. Cannot get it started. Needed a tow back home. I did not replace the plugs. These could be fairly old. Not sure when my dad put those in but was wondering if this could also be part of the problem. Any suggestions??

04-20-2015, 05:29 PM	#7
CC33 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 465	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 I had the exact same problem on my '33 V8. Changed out the condenser with the Napa one and things were perfect. You will have to insert a brass screw secured with a lock washer and nut where the condenser inserts into the coil. Then place another lock washer and nut to secure the spade tip of the replacement Napa condenser. You ground/mount the condenser on one of the mounting screws of the coil. Worked fine! Check search history for Napa part number referenced for this application. I would start with this before tearing things apart. Also, buy 2 and keep one in the glove box.

04-20-2015, 05:34 PM	#8
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,101	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Robb, Out of curiosity, how do you know that you have a September, 1932 cylinder block given that the blocks carried no markings as to their date of manufacture during that period? Thanks. Dave

04-20-2015, 05:40 PM	#9
RobbHelf Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Cedarburg, WI Posts: 97	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 This is the second time this advice has passed my way. Sounds like a great place to start and cheap too. I believe the NAPA part is IH200. I can only hope it could be this simple!! Thanks very much to CC33 and Tom Walker!!

04-20-2015, 05:41 PM	#10
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Condensers can and do die the same way as coils...function happily cold, fade out as heated, return to good after a rest. Look at the spark produced cold, then again when the engine is just about to die. I would expect the cold test to show a fat blue spark and the moribund test a thin yellow one, testing by pulling off one plug wire and letting spark jump 1/4" or so to ground. On the possibility of a fuel problem...when car is starting to act up, you can do a lot of fuel mixture diagnosis with the choke (enrichment circuit on your DL), as the symptoms would point toward a lean mixture. While car is acting up but not yet dying, pull out choke a bit at a time and see if that improves performance at all. You of course don't have a normal "strangler" type choke, but the enrichment mechanism should do the same thing. If no results, back to the electrics.

04-20-2015, 05:45 PM	#11
RobbHelf Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Cedarburg, WI Posts: 97	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Hi again David, Maybe I misstated that. The engine transmission cover and frame are stamped 18-178825. Flat front (no recesses) and vertical petcock. In books on production that earmrks it Sept. 1932. That right?

04-20-2015, 05:51 PM	#12
RobbHelf Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Cedarburg, WI Posts: 97	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Thanks Bruce! Sounds like another easy troubleshoot exercise to do.

04-20-2015, 07:16 PM	#13
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,101	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Robb, September, 1932, it was. It must have been misplaced in a corner somewhere for three or four months as Job #1 for '33 models wasn't until January, 1933. If your '33 doesn't have a lot of early '33 characteristics then its hibernation in inventory was even longer. Interesting!

04-20-2015, 08:56 PM	#14
RobbHelf Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Cedarburg, WI Posts: 97	Re: Acceleration problem on a '33 Evenin' Dave, Yup. That was the scuttlebutt this past winter when I threw this serial number and details on my car out into the "Barn". Many guys came in with the similar thought this assembly being crated and stockpiled at one of the plants. Possibly when production became so slow at the end of '32 in those Depression times, Ford stacked a bunch of the fall assemblies up in some warehouse. Who knows? Interesting for sure!! My car was produced in March, at the earliest, since it has the one piece motor mount/water outlet port brackets. That's the most obvious telltale. Fun stuff, huh!