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Old 06-22-2010, 10:25 AM   #1
RonC
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Default What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

What was the approximate viscosity of 600W as used by Ford at the time of the Model A?

Mobil oil sells 600W Cylinder Oil which is about 460 viscosity.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...inder_Oils.asp
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

I think you just answered your own question. Shell sells a industrial gear oil, Omala 460, but the smallest package you can get is a 5 gal. pail.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Check out this post/thread.
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5050
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

I read that the original type 600W was 250 weight. I understand that the gear oil that Snyders sells is 250# and that is what I use with good results. I have read that the gear oil that Bratton sells is 140# with STP added to increase viscosity. I have used both with NO problem and NO noticable difference in the way that the gears shift. I do prefer the container dispenser that Brattons gear oil comes in. A few years back a lot of model A guys thought that straight STP was the way to go. I tried the straight STP in my 31 tudor and the gears didn't shift nearly as well and I had to heat the transmission case with a heat gun to get the STP to drain out . A little STP is probably ok but I would never again try using it straight. I don't think that it is that critical which 600W you use that the model A vendors sell. Thinner grease shifts easier but then you may have more problems with leaks. I have even used 90# if I didn't have anything else.
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:40 PM   #5
Art Bjornestad
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Selection of gear oils for Model A Fords must take into consideration the gear shapes used by Henry. All straight gears depend upon a cushion of oil to ease the shock load when the 2 faces meet and therefor require non hypoid lubricants. Hypoid oils are designed to leave the gear face as quickly as possible...just the opposite of what straight cut gears need. Hypoid oils are used in gear trains where there is a pronounced wiping action, like in a flathead gearbox. Simply put....do not use 90 or 140 weight oils as they are all hypoid based
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Old 06-22-2010, 08:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

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I have been very interested in these various posts both on this page and the EV8 page. As best I understand, 600w is equivalent to new 240WT (Model A) and Straight 140WT should be used for transmissions and rear ends in pre-WWII V8s. However, it seems that many people are having good results with the stuff from Bratton's, Snyder's and other good supply houses like Bert's. If this is not a fair statement please let me know.

240/250 and 140 straight are hard to get now. I have found them at places like Valvoline and Drydene on-line but the minimums are large like a 5 gallon pail. It seems like local clubs could pitch in together. Still looking for 40WT NDT motor oil.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

From everything I have read on this subject it appears that it can be anything from 160-250 weight.. Plain ole every day 140 works just fine..
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:45 AM   #8
Barry in St.Paul
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Sure is a confusing subject, and a lot of it because of that simple "W" behind the 600 ! Was very interesting in 'uncle bobs' post this week to see that the "W" apparently represented WHALE oil, not a 'weight'....!!?? Could explain a lot. Regardless, I ordered some Lubriplate SPO288, which is 250W equivalent per their site, and safe for 'yellow metals', etc.. and will see if that improves my 30 coupe's tranny noises, and whether it affects shifting or not. I currently have the Bratton's brew (STP plus 140W????) but have always thought it was a little thin vs what I've taken out of old original 'A rear-ends in particular. Will post results in a week or two when I get it in and have some drive time.
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Don't confuse weight with viscosity. Mobil 600W is 375 cSt(centistokes the SI units for viscosity) @ 40C(centigrade temperature) viscosity. Mobil also makes steam cylinder oils at 460, 680, and 1000.

I bought 5 gallons each of Texaco 460 and 680 at a local industrial oil supplier for about 1/3 the cost of getting it from a Model A supplier. Here in Texas in the summer the 680 IMHO is a much better product for the Model A transmission. It is thick enough where I can shift without double shifting, I just hesitate about a second with the clutch and the transmission shifts without grinding. The 460 didn't do as well. In the winter, shifting can take a little muscle to get into gear. But I don't drive my 28 RPU in cold weather anyway.

My experience is consistent with what Marco Tahtaras has said in the past that today's 600W is not what it was in the day and that the 680 is more like what 600w was.

I looked up 140wt gear oil and one brand was 568 cSt @ 40C, somewhere between the 460 and 680.

This chart is handy:

Last edited by mrtexas; 06-24-2010 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 06-24-2010, 06:52 PM   #10
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

ttt
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

I just did a very unscientific test on some lubes I have in the shop. My test consisted of sticking my finger into the lube and see how it ran off the tip of my finger. 250 ran off pretty fast. Steam cyl. oil took a lot longer. 600 w is like roofing tar and piles up when it returns to the container. This 600 is probably 35 yrs old and has been stored in a closed container.
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:17 PM   #12
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtexas View Post
Don't confuse weight with viscosity. Mobil 600W is 375 cSt(centistokes the SI units for viscosity) @ 40C(centigrade temperature) viscosity. Mobil also makes steam cylinder oils at 460, 680, and 1000.

I bought 5 gallons each of Texaco 460 and 680 at a local industrial oil supplier for about 1/3 the cost of getting it from a Model A supplier. Here in Texas in the summer the 680 IMHO is a much better product for the Model A transmission. It is thick enough where I can shift without double shifting, I just hesitate about a second with the clutch and the transmission shifts without grinding. The 460 didn't do as well. In the winter, shifting can take a little muscle to get into gear. But I don't drive my 28 RPU in cold weather anyway.

My experience is consistent with what Marco Tahtaras has said in the past that today's 600W is not what it was in the day and that the 680 is more like what 600w was.

I looked up 140wt gear oil and one brand was 568 cSt @ 40C, somewhere between the 460 and 680.

This chart is handy:
MrTexas,

Thanks for the chart. I am trying to understand it. I am familiar with some solution and gas viscosity measurement protocols but not so much with industrials. Can you help me out?

Do four compounds at a common horizontal level all have the same viscosity by some single measurement protocol? For example, does the chart mean that SAE 30 motor oil, AGMA 3 and SAE 80W gear oils, and 100 ISO 3348 industrial oil all have the same viscosity?

Is it true that the four columns represent not just material names but actual viscosity numbers measured by four different protocols?

Are the numbers in the first column the only data that are actual viscosity numbers in centistokes?

What is industrial oil?

Thanks!

Steve
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

First let me say that I have no specific expertise in lubricating oils. I'm using my knowledge of Chemical Engineering(I have a BS degree in Chemical Engineering from U of Washington) and Lube Oil base stock manufacture from experience in the Refining Industry. Questions like your are interesting to me from an Engineering standpoint.

Industrial oil is used in industrial machines like steam driven pumps, gas turbines, positive displacement pumps etc. I posted the above chart thinking it was simpler than the one in this post:

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...600w&showall=1

Yes, you read the chart horizontally. I like this chart because there are no viscosities posted at different temperatures. You can't predict lube oil viscosity at one temperature from viscosity at another temperature without actually testing it in a laboratory. I am looking at the chart primarily in the top two gear oil blocks. This says that ISO 460 and 680 viscosity industrial oils(the oils similar to 600W) are equivalent in viscosity to SAE 140wt gear oil. I checked the viscosity of 460/680 industrial oil and 140wt gear oil and they are similar when compared at the same temperature. I wish I had done the comparison before I went out and bought 10 gallons of industrial oil as I could have bought just the amount of 140wt I needed without buying too much! I can't comment on comparing engine oils to gear oils as I haven't checked that out.

Is it true that the four columns represent not just material names but actual viscosity numbers measured by four different protocols? The industrial oil numbers are the viscosity in cSt at 40C. The other numbers for gear oils and engine oils are not viscosity numbers but material names.

One confusing part of the chart is that the ISO and AGMA standards specify viscosity at 40C, the gear oils are specified at 100C and the engine oils are specified at lower temperatures. 140wt oil has a viscosity SPECIFIED at 100C but the manufacturers also TEST the viscosity at 40C as well. I compared ISO 460/680(cSt) viscosity at 40C with 140wt oil viscosity at 40C(568 cSt). The viscosity of 140wt oil(568) is between 460 and 680. I would agree that as far as the viscosity is concerned 140wt gear oil could be used as a 600w substitute. But there is a lot more to be concerned about than viscosity when selecting a lubricating oil. Automobile oils contain as much as 40% additives selected to reduce friction and improve 10+ other qualities. Apparently our Model As transmissions and rear ends aren't that picky about lubricants other than viscosity as lots of folks have had good luck with a wide variety of lube oils and oddly STP which is not a lube oil.

Are the numbers in the first column the only data that are actual viscosity numbers in centistokes? Yes

Last edited by mrtexas; 06-24-2010 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Jay View Post
I just did a very unscientific test on some lubes I have in the shop. My test consisted of sticking my finger into the lube and see how it ran off the tip of my finger. 250 ran off pretty fast. Steam cyl. oil took a lot longer. 600 w is like roofing tar and piles up when it returns to the container. This 600 is probably 35 yrs old and has been stored in a closed container.
Your test is not very unscientific! One way viscosities are measured is by filling a standard cylinder with a specific sized hole in the bottom at a specified temperature and measuring how low it takes to empty the cylinder. The units for viscosity used to be seconds, Saybolt Universal Seconds, the time I mentioned when describing the measurement. Lube oil viscosity is now measuring in the metric units(SI) of centistokes.
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:00 AM   #15
Barry in St.Paul
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Interesting! I found this post in the old (98) ahooga archives that is the first I've seen to actually talk about the origination of the "600W" nomenclature: http://www.ahooga-archives.com/messages3/12396.shtml
An excerpt from this old post: "600W is not a viscosity rating. It is a trade name of sorts originated by Mobil. It simply became universally used. The book (old and yellowing)that my contact used listed three products. 600, 600W and Super 600. 600 was listed as a pure mineral oil equivalent to SAE 140W. 600W and Super 600 were compounded oils or oils that were thickened. They were roughly equivalent to SAE 250W. The oil we use today as 600W is supposed to be a compounded oil equivalent to SAE 250W. "
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:33 AM   #16
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtexas View Post
I am looking at the chart primarily in the top two gear oil blocks. This says that ISO 460 and 680 viscosity industrial oils(the oils similar to 600W) are equivalent in viscosity to SAE 140wt gear oil. I checked the viscosity of 460/680 industrial oil and 140wt gear oil and they are similar when compared at the same temperature.
....The industrial oil numbers are the viscosity in cSt at 40C. .... 140wt oil has a viscosity SPECIFIED at 100C but the manufacturers also TEST the viscosity at 40C as well. I compared ISO 460/680(cSt) viscosity at 40C with 140wt oil viscosity at 40C(568 cSt). The viscosity of 140wt oil(568) is between 460 and 680. I would agree that as far as the viscosity is concerned 140wt gear oil could be used as a 600w substitute. ....
MrTexas, thanks again for the interesting posts. I graduated from Washington University-St.Louis, ME and NEVER studied any of this that I can recall! The ME's spent our time calculating vibrations for Allis-Chalmers diesels with propeller shafts for WWII Liberty ships (our automotive prof graduated in 1928 and worked for Allis during the war, so those examples were our labs!) Regardless, followup question for you. The data I can find for Lubriplate SPO 288 shows a viscosity of 628cSt at 40C, and every vendor I find selling it indicate this to being SAE grade 250W, and the SPO 277 (432cSt @40C) as being 140W. From your chart, looks like 140W covers the entire range up to 680cSt. Any thoughts on why the classification of 250W for the SPO288, even though it is 'only' 628cSt? Is the correlation between the viscosity and the SAE grade subject to interpretation or are other factors involved? Or are vendors just incorrectly calling the SPO288 "250W" to separate it from the SPO277, which DOES fall in the SAE140 range of your chart?
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:20 AM   #17
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Well the chart isn't mine as I got it by googling. I don't know the answer to your questions. To me the viscosity is what is important and not whether the stuff is labeled as 140wt or 250wt. I learned a little about fluid properties when I took Fluid Dynamics. That and Distillation are the specialties of Chem Engineers.

Last edited by mrtexas; 06-25-2010 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:24 AM   #18
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry in St.Paul View Post
Interesting! I found this post in the old (98) ahooga archives that is the first I've seen to actually talk about the origination of the "600W" nomenclature: http://www.ahooga-archives.com/messages3/12396.shtml
An excerpt from this old post: "600W is not a viscosity rating. It is a trade name of sorts originated by Mobil. It simply became universally used. The book (old and yellowing)that my contact used listed three products. 600, 600W and Super 600. 600 was listed as a pure mineral oil equivalent to SAE 140W. 600W and Super 600 were compounded oils or oils that were thickened. They were roughly equivalent to SAE 250W. The oil we use today as 600W is supposed to be a compounded oil equivalent to SAE 250W. "
If you look at the Mobil website you will find that what they call 600w steam cylinder oils can be a viscosity of 375 or 460 cSt with Hecla steam cylinder oils at 680, or 1000 cSt, from too thin to too thick if 680 is really what it was in Model A days!

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...inder_Oils.asp
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:48 PM   #19
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Hmmm, I go away for several days and you guys have more fun with viscosity.

Just a few thoughts if there are any particular people involved with this. As with whatever your field of expertise, when folks outside of that field use the terminology you're very familiar with in a "loose" way, you may feel the need to get it back on track. Professionally I've been away from this stuff for almost 20 years, but a lot of what we have been talking about is pretty basic and hasn't changed much in that time. I'd happily admit ignorance if something "new" is outside my experience.

The chart Mrtexas put up is intended as a cross reference tool for viscosity grades only. The word grade is important because, as noted, only the ISO 3348 is a direct reflection of actual product testing resullts. The other 3 are arbitrary numbers assigned by the specification defining bodies. Lets start by defining those.

ISO is the International Standards Organization. They developed this viscosity spec so that no matter where in the world a piece of equipment was manufactured or ended up, the user could find a product to meet the equipment viscosity need. Oil companies around the world have adopted this system of viscosity grading for "industrial" oils such as hydraulic fluids, turbine oils, process oils, and many more applications.

AGMA is the American Gear Manufacturers Assoc. They decided many moons ago to publish their own system of viscosity identification. These are intended mostly for industrial use gear drives, think conveyor belts, elevators, and a host of other apps.

SAE is Society of Automotive Engineers, a U.S. based organization, that defines specifications for all manner of automotive equipment and products. In this case we have the viscosity designations for engine oils and gear oils. BTW, the numbers listed in the gear section are out of date, in 2005 a 110 and 190 grade were added as the automotive industry felt the old grading system offered too wide a range of viscosities for certain applications.

As noted the chart is to be read horizontally to compare similar viscosity grades. That's not to be confused with any two oils of any given grade being the same in performance, other than viscosity. While viscosity, in almost all cases, is the most important characteristic of lubricating oil, additive performance is also an important consideration, and is what will distinguish a motor oil from say a steam cylinder oil, even though they may have the same or very similar viscosity. Most oil companies have a fixed inventory of base oils to build on. For instance, they could/would use the same base oil to make an SAE 40 motor oil as they would to make an SAE 90 gear oil, the difference would be the additive system, viscosity wise they'd be the same.

Just another example: Say you have a non hypoid lubricant, either SAE gear graded or ISO industrial oil (both of which would be fine for spur gears for instance) that met the 140 grading. It wouldn't work as well in a hypoid gear because it lacks the extreme pressure additive needed because of the extra sliding action caused by the high angle contact between the opposing gear teeth of the ring and pinion. The extreme pressure additive (often a sulphur-phosphorous compound) reacts to high temperature spikes from sliding friction and forms an oxide at point of friction to act as a sacrificial wear barrier. That aggressive oxidation function is what is unfavorable to yellow metals such as brass. The oil film is still present, but the additive is there to act when the oil film thickness is diminished by pressure.

BTW, there is no such thing as an SAE gear grade 140w or 250w, minor point, but important if you think that's what you're shopping for and can't find it.

I'm intrigued by the notion that 600w oils "used to be" different/heavier. I'd love to see an old data sheet from back in the day, my bet would be that viscosity then was stated in SSU/SUS, a now outdated system of measuring viscosity. Has someone not familiar with all the viscosity stating variants gotten confused?

If you want to get a little deeper into the woods on this stuff here's a reference: http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/viscosity.htm

As stated in the other thread, this is a simplistic commentary (believe it or not ), there are lots of variables when it comes to specifics.
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Last edited by Uncle Bob; 06-28-2010 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: What was the approximate viscosity of 600W?

Interesting, thanks for the clarifications! I just got my Lubriplate SPO288 in the mail today, anxious to try it out (but have to get my car back from the body-shop first, she's finally getting the final rub-out of some paint drips and such that was promised 'as soon as I get it put back together on the chassis and driving', which as back in September :-)
I'll post my results, which may very possibly be 'I can't tell the difference'.... :-)
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