New design turn signals for Model A?

[Thearne3]

Hi all,

I've always had turn signals on my Model A's and always annoyed about two things:

1. Most on-column turn signal devices are clunky and ugly. They stand out as 'not from this car'.
2. During the day, when the flasher is not so bright, I often forget to turn off the signal - hence creating a potential hazard: am I turning or not?

I have designed a solution to both these issues and wanted to gauge interest in this community and get your input. The basic concept is to use a 'momentary' SPDT switch - either on the column or where ever the user prefers, plus a magnetic reed switch near the back of the steering wheel. Small magnets are mounted behind the wheel. The 'logic' or brains of the system is a simple programmable board. It will 'know' when you've completed the turn and stop the signal when the reed switches are activated. A failsafe timer would stop the signal after a specified time, say, 20 seconds.

I used CAD software to create a simple, small turn signal for mounting on the steering column with an extension to hold the reed sensor behind the steering wheel. I printed the device using a 3D printer. I'm working on the software now.

Pictures:

The first picture is the prototype. It bolts together with two screws.
The second shows the prototype mounted on the column (the near side screw has not been installed to tighten the clamp)
The third picture shows how unobtrusive the device is. All you see is the switch. I plan to reach through the wheel to tap the switch. You don't have to hold the switch - it just initiates the signal. Note the existing old style switch in the background)

Here are some features:

System is easily compatible with both 6 and 12 volt systems, Pos or Neg ground.

The 'brains' of the system (a box about the size of a pack of cigarettes) will likely be behind the driver's kick panel, but location is flexible.

The wiring from the column to the brains will be a flat ribbon cable on the bottom of the column - again, barely noticeable.

The system can accommodate either dedicated LEDs or integrated with existing parking/running lights - perhaps even including a parking light override (parking light 'on' tells the brain that all turning lights dedicated to parking), which eliminates the need for dual element lights for turning vs running/parking.

Questions for the community:

Is something like this of interest? Would it make turn signal attractive to those who so far have not installed them? Should this be DIY or a kit?
How important is visual/auditory feedback? Indicator lights could be on the switch or mounted elsewhere. So far I haven't designed them into the switch. A buzzer could be connected easily (again, sort of an annoyance, if it can be avoided!)

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Tom

[psimet]

I was just thinking the other day that with what's available today it should be much easier to do a fairly unobtrusive turn signal setup.

I would love to see something similar to what you have started. I would love to have it be wireless for the switch. Have a battery and show lights to indicate the signal is on and when the battery in it is low. In the rear something that can tap into the wires for the brake light. Mount in the space on the bumpers.

My opinion. I am sure there will be others with better ones.

[alexiskai]

Sounds like you're already moving forward on this for your own use, so I would just say, at this stage, make sure you're documenting everything. Publishing DIY plans won't be too hard when you're finished, and if there's a lot of interest you could move forward with commercialization at that time.

Might be worth investigating packages like the one Brent mentioned in another thread, see how they solve these problems. http://ronsmachineshop.com/Hidden_Turn_Signal_Kits.html

[Thearne3]

Originally Posted by psimet

. I would love to have it be wireless for the switch. Have a battery and show lights to indicate the signal is on and when the battery in it is low. In the rear something that can tap into the wires for the brake light. Mount in the space on the bumpers.

Wireless is certainly an option, though the unit on the column would have to be somewhat larger to accommodate a Bluetooth chip and battery. The wires I plan to use are a flat cable, taped under black electrical tape on the bottom of the column. Wires will always be more reliable than bluetooth!

i like existing systems that use dual brake lights to double as rear turn signals - no need for between the bumper lights. That's how my existing (old) turn signals work. However, the core system can be set up either way.

Thanks for your input! I'll work on integrating a light into the switch...however, the base of the switch is obscured by the Spark advance plate, so there's a trade-off.

[Thearne3]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Might be worth investigating packages like the one Brent mentioned in another thread, see how they solve these problems. http://ronsmachineshop.com/Hidden_Turn_Signal_Kits.html

I'm not sure how 'smart' that system is. It's nice that it 'hides' the turn signal switch (which I could do as well, but prefer a 'traditional' switch placement). It may be that the sensor bracket alone would be of interest in any system that could use the input.

Thanks!

[alexiskai]

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Originally Posted by Thearne3

I'm not sure how 'smart' that system is. It's nice that it 'hides' the turn signal switch (which I could do as well, but prefer a 'traditional' switch placement). It may be that the sensor bracket alone would be of interest in any system that could use the input.

Not smart necessarily, but it does have the benefit of having sold some units to satisfied customers, so chalk it up to market research: how does the control unit mount? How loud is the buzzer? Etc.

You could post a poll here, ask people to vote for any features they'd be willing to pay more money for in a turn signal product.

[Y-Blockhead]

A lot of folks have the Logolites Turn Signals and i have not heard any complaints.

I made my own hidden turn signal system using a dpdt switch hidden under the dash rail and amber bulbs in the HL reflectors.. It is only as smart as the operator (me).

Two things I don't like is the big switch on the column and the lights between the bumper bars.

There are many threads on turn signals.

Originally Posted by Thearne3

Questions for the community:

Is something like this of interest? Would it make turn signal attractive to those who so far have not installed them? Should this be DIY or a kit?
How important is visual/auditory feedback? Indicator lights could be on the switch or mounted elsewhere. So far I haven't designed them into the switch. A buzzer could be connected easily (again, sort of an annoyance, if it can be avoided!)

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Tom

I think there may be some interest to those that would like to have a kit and customize it to their wants and needs.

[john in illinois]

I have an electro tech system on my roadster. It is self cancelling,has internal flasher and works with any bulb ,led or regular. 6 or 12. Unit is under dash.all electronic.
I like it and have had good luck with it. This might help you see what is out there and give you some ideas.

http://www.turnswitch.com/Turnsignal.htm

John

[nkaminar]

I have a certain amount of nostalgia for the clunky switch. This is what was available back in the day when you wanted to add turn signals to your pre 1955 car. The only difference is the little rubber wheel that is missing on the present production. The wheel turned against the steering wheel and would cancel the turn indicators after you made your turn.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Thearne3

I'm not sure how 'smart' that system is. It's nice that it 'hides' the turn signal switch (which I could do as well, but prefer a 'traditional' switch placement). It may be that the sensor bracket alone would be of interest in any system that could use the input.

Thanks!

I think this is a preference thing. Yours will work fine. Its all in what you get used to, and sometimes with a spark lever and oversized steering wheel, it can get busy in a hurry by the time a turn signal lever is added to the mix.

As for the sensor, I personally like to "hear" that I left the turn signal on. With the unit I suggested, I find that on closed cars, a piece of tape over the turn signal buzzer tends to mute it enough to still be effective but not muffle it enough that it cannot be heard. On open cars with the controller behind the kick panel, it is plenty lout to hear it while driving. In an open car, the amount of daylight entering the vehicle might cause the sensor light to not be bright enough.



Ohh, you mentioned that you 3 printed that. What machine did you use? We have a Makergear M2 that we like but we are finding ourselves needing a larger and faster machine for making 'stuff', so an upgrade is likely in our future. One such 'stuff' is we have begun making sheetmetal dies for small runs of sheetmetal repairs on vehicles we are restoring. What a game changer!! For example, we are working on a 1929 Coupe (45A) that we need to make some replacement sheetmetal pieces for the ¼-window area that is rusted away. We just drew it up in SolidWorks and just printed out dies that we can use either in an arbor press, or in a Pullmax to make the correctly shaped replacement pieces. Sorry to hi-jack your thread talking about nonsense, but I definitely find a printer is a great way to prototype for things like your signal switch.

.

[Thearne3]

Originally Posted by john in illinois

I have an electro tech system on my roadster. It is self cancelling,has internal flasher and works with any bulb ,led or regular. 6 or 12. Unit is under dash.all electronic.
I like it and have had good luck with it. This might help you see what is out there and give you some ideas.

http://www.turnswitch.com/Turnsignal.htm

John

Thanks, John. That is a goldmine for options! I think they’re using a mercury switch to detect ‘lean’ or at least momentum for a turn - very clever. It’s also more universal for older cars. My approach to cancelation depends on the Model A steering wheel configuration.

[Thearne3]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Ohh, you mentioned that you 3 printed that. What machine did you use? We have a Makergear M2 that we like but we are finding ourselves needing a larger and faster machine for making 'stuff', so an upgrade is likely in our future. One such 'stuff' is we have begun making sheetmetal dies for small runs of sheetmetal repairs on vehicles we are restoring. What a game changer!! For example, we are working on a 1929 Coupe (45A) that we need to make some replacement sheetmetal pieces for the ¼-window area that is rusted away. We just drew it up in SolidWorks and just printed out dies that we can use either in an arbor press, or in a Pullmax to make the correctly shaped replacement pieces. Sorry to hi-jack your thread talking about nonsense, but I definitely find a printer is a great way to prototype for things like your signal switch.

.

Perhaps a separate thread for uses of 3d printing? I use Fusion 360 for modeling and simple Anycubic 3D for printing - will print up to 10” cubic area. So far I’ve used it for three things for the A: the ‘Yoke’ piece in the vacuum wiper, bumper holder for LED signal lights (the ones sold by venders are WAY over priced!), and now this project.

[Thearne3]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

I have a certain amount of nostalgia for the clunky switch. This is what was available back in the day when you wanted to add turn signals to your pre 1955 car. The only difference is the little rubber wheel that is missing on the present production. The wheel turned against the steering wheel and would cancel the turn indicators after you made your turn.

If I had the device you describe, I probably wouldn’t have gone down this road!

T

[Thearne3]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Not smart necessarily, but it does have the benefit of having sold some units to satisfied customers, so chalk it up to market research: how does the control unit mount? How loud is the buzzer? Etc.

You could post a poll here, ask people to vote for any features they'd be willing to pay more money for in a turn signal product.

Thanks! Didn’t mean to demean that system at all - all have pluses and minuses. I was using ‘smart’ as in smart phone - having a processor that can be programmed for new inputs.

Once I have something that I like working, I think a poll is a great idea!

T

[psimet]

Originally Posted by Thearne3

Perhaps a separate thread for uses of 3d printing? I use Fusion 360 for modeling and simple Anycubic 3D for printing - will print up to 10” cubic area. So far I’ve used it for three things for the A: the ‘Yoke’ piece in the vacuum wiper, bumper holder for LED signal lights (the ones sold by venders are WAY over priced!), and now this project.

I'd love it if there was a thread for 3D print models for devices for Model A's. Just a general thread where everyone could drop in whatever models they came up with or at least link to where they are stored.

[GeneBob]

In answer to the OP's questions, I like where you are going with this. A smaller box with self canceling and beeper and/or lights added would be very nice. Just to make it more difficult for you; have you considered the 4-way function for hazard lights?

[Thearne3]

Originally Posted by GeneBob

In answer to the OP's questions, I like where you are going with this. A smaller box with self canceling and beeper and/or lights added would be very nice. Just to make it more difficult for you; have you considered the 4-way function for hazard lights?

Definitely! This will be part of the code, eg, holding switch up (or down) for 5 plus seconds initiates hazard lights. Tapping again cancels. Similarly, lane change would be a tap, full turn might be short hold (1/2 sec?). It’s all programmable. Will have to experiment with timing!

[panhead_pete]

I have the logolites and love the buzzer and the way the control is somewhat hidden. Super simple to install too with one wire per signal light. If you could include a buzzer that would be a plus in my books.



I just really dislike the way the logolites look though and after chatting with them there isnt other options available using their tech. Please set yours up so that it can use any LED turn signals.

[CarlG]

I'm rather partial to the Signalstat 900, I have no problem in remembering to turn it off.

[Cape Codder]

Other than the buzzer a small light can be installed in the second screw from left o drivers side. I saw this some time ago where the screw was drilled right in the center and than a SMALL LED was installed! So than there would be no need for a buzzer. Of course after some searching I was unable to find the thread! Sorry......

[Tom Endy]

Turn signals on a Model A are a must. Few people on the road today understand what a hand signal is. I installed turn signals in my Victoria years ago (six volts), and later installed LED tail and brake lights for better visibility. The third brake light and turn signal in the back window is also a plus and recommended.

The turn signal kit I used was obtained from Bratton's, and I think it was the best on the market. However, Walt discontinued them. I was fortunate to purchase one of the last he had in stock (12-volts) for my grandson's 1930 Tudor.

Bratton's turn signal has a little lever that protrudes out of sight below the dash rail on the left side. It also has a buzzer that signals that the turn signals are in operation. I added to it by installing a red and green mini-light just below the dash rail in the center. They are wired to the brake lights. When turning left, the red-light blinks, when turning right the green-light blinks.

The problem I am having today is that at my advanced age I don't hear the buzzer, and if I do, I don't become aware of it, and I roll along with the turn signals on.

The modern Model A kingdom turn signals should have a practical signal cancelling application when the turn is completed.

See attached document.

Tom Endy


http://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-conte...rn-Signals.pdf

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Cape Codder

Other than the buzzer a small light can be installed in the second screw from left o drivers side. I saw this some time ago where the screw was drilled right in the center and than a SMALL LED was installed! So than there would be no need for a buzzer. Of course after some searching I was unable to find the thread! Sorry......

That may have been mine you are thinking of. It has a 3mm green LED. The one LED indicates either right or left and 4 way.

[Patrick L.]

Self-cancelling and/or a nice bright bulb would be nice.

I didn't have either so I mounted the units the turn stalk was aligned with a steering spoke. Once the car was back on track if I could see the stalk I knew the lights were still flashing. And I could see the cowl light flashing the back the headlight.

[CT Jack]

I think it's great to have new ideas and products being developed to make certain tasks perform better. I do not know how much of the market you have researched pertaining to the different turn signal units available for antique vehicle application.
The unit that I have been using is produced by "Turn Signals For Classics" in the USA. This turn signal controller is a compact unit that can be velcro mounted behind the drivers side kick panel on an "A" or other desired locations. This unit is available for 6 or 12 volt wiring and can be used on positive or negative grounds. It can handle incandescent, LED, or combinations of lamps. Standard functions include L/R turn, adjustable on-time during turn with auto shutoff, turn signal remains on with brake pedal depressed, and emergency flashing. Turn signal control can be either a column mounted lever or a SPDT momentary switch. I am using a SPDT momentary switch that is hidden behind the dash to the left of steering column. An audible beeper can be added and directly wired to unit. I have also connected my 3rd brake light and cowl lights as additional turning and warning lights.

[gary678*]

I have a small toggle switch on the shifter which operates the signals: cowl lights in the front and tailights in the rear. Also very small (1/8 inch) but bright LED lights (green) in the dash between the steering wheel spokes; very visible while driving but not obtrusive. I love them! Next a buzzer is needed.

[Patrick L.]

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Some good ideas !

[Cape Codder]

Y-Blockhead - That sure looks like what I had seen. Now my question to you is how do you turn the signals on and off? Also, did the light eliminate the buzzer or do you have both? I was thinking of have the switch for left and right on the gear stick as some have for their overdrives.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Cape Codder

Y-Blockhead - That sure looks like what I had seen. Now my question to you is how do you turn the signals on and off? Also, did the light eliminate the buzzer or do you have both? I was thinking of have the switch for left and right on the gear stick as some have for their overdrives.

I use a spdt switch mounted under the left side of the dash rail for the left/right signals. There is a single spst switch mounter in the kick panel to turn on the four way flasher. Flasher and diodes are mounted under the kick panel.

I had a buzzer but found it too annoying so I disconnected it. It is still mounted under the kick panel.

[DkFordor]

On the 1931 Fordor I have inherited and am currently renovating a different solution to the switch is used: The original light switch on the steering wheel hub has been wired to operate the turn signals instead of the headlights. To control the headlights a pull-switch has been mounted in the dash left of the steering wheel.

It has the advantage that its very obvious from the position of the switch if the turn signals are on and the operation of the turn signals is quite intuitive. And of course the disadvantage of not being original, and a pull-switch needs to be installed for the headlights.


I grew up with this solution and will probably keep it this way

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by Thearne3

I'm not sure how 'smart' that system is. It's nice that it 'hides' the turn signal switch (which I could do as well, but prefer a 'traditional' switch placement). It may be that the sensor bracket alone would be of interest in any system that could use the input.

Thanks!

"Switch mounts easily on the gear shift lever or anywhere convenient in your car"


I like the idea of the switch on the shift lever but wonder how to run the wire in an unobtrusive manner.

[alexiskai]

Another way you could do turn signals is to use floor-mounted switches that you activate with your feet. You could put one under the clutch for left turn and one under the brake for right turn. Hit 'em both for hazards. Those spots are easily accessible with the left foot. GM used to equip cars with floor switches to flip your high beams on, I bet those could be adapted.

[Dan Partain]

Thinking out of the box here.
How about the magnetic reed switch mounted to a bracket on the lower frame rail and let it get a signal from a magnet on the pitman arm. A 'momentary' SPDT switch could still be mounted where ever the user prefers inside the cab.

This could nearly be completely hidden depending on the where the SPDT switch goes.

[denniskliesen]

In the past year I’ve driven over 22,000 miles with a signal stat 900 with no problems. I use it every time I change lanes or make a turn. Not saying there might be better solutions out there, I just haven’t had problems with either of my 900 in either of my A’s.