01-31-2015, 08:44 PM | #1 |
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Australian A's
Hello,
Yesterday, I learned that my model A was Canadian based on all of the build numbers, black emblem, and front bumper clamps. Today, after having someone go look at the car, try noticed a plate under the seat that says its Australian. I was hoping someone could provide insight on the Australian cars, as there is very little info I could find. I did find a small something that said the Australian cars had CA vin numbers. Any help is appreciated as I am trying to get to the root of this.
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01-31-2015, 09:32 PM | #2 |
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Re: Australian A's
Is there any evidence that it once was right hand drive like maybe the firewall was patched where the steering column goes through or the existing hole isn't quite stock?
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01-31-2015, 09:36 PM | #3 |
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Re: Australian A's
Has it got a timber subframe and seat risers ?
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01-31-2015, 09:41 PM | #4 |
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Re: Australian A's
The mechanicals were Canadian but the bodies were made here. That practice started early in the Model T days and continued till the late 40's when the main body maker (Holden) was taken over by GM to create General Motors Holden (GMH), as GM is known here. Once the new company got itself together, GMH cars were uniquely Australian, designed and built here. Ford did similar including local design and manufacture. These cars were for year considered superior to the parent company's product (no offense intended). Unfortunately, both head offices in Detroit in all there wisdom (????) have decided to shut down their Australian braches in 2016.
Engine numbers on Model As here start with 3 letters. C, A and other followed by a 5 digit number. I have one starting with CAQ, another with CAD and yet another with CAW. There were no numbers on the chassis.
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01-31-2015, 09:44 PM | #5 |
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Re: Australian A's
Yes, seat risers are made from wood. Numbers are ca55443
Like I said there is a plate under the seat saying it's built in Australia. My grandfather once mentioned a conversion from rhd, although I don't see much evidence.
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01-31-2015, 09:47 PM | #6 |
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Re: Australian A's
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I won't be around the car for a few months, and will take very detailed pictures then.
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01-31-2015, 09:50 PM | #7 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
Does it have a number stamped into the wood under the front seat?
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01-31-2015, 09:51 PM | #8 |
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Re: Australian A's
I'll have to check on that when I see it...
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01-31-2015, 09:54 PM | #9 |
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Re: Australian A's
If anyone could post some pictures of what I should be looking for it would be greatly appreciated
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01-31-2015, 09:55 PM | #10 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
Just as a point of useless trivia, there is no such thing as a deciduous native Australian tree. They are all evergreens. Isn't it amazing what you can learn on a forum like this!!!!
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01-31-2015, 10:14 PM | #11 |
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Re: Australian A's
Called my grandpa, and it is in fact ash. It has some evidence of a RHD conversion!
This is getting interesting. I wonder why someone payed to ship to the U.S. And convert when they could buy one here...
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01-31-2015, 10:36 PM | #12 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
I'm pursuing an Australian woody (still RHD) at the moment where that is what happened.
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01-31-2015, 10:41 PM | #13 |
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Re: Australian A's
some photos
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01-31-2015, 10:46 PM | #14 |
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Re: Australian A's
Being an Australian car, you'll have to be a little careful when you buy some body parts like hood (Top) bows. The US ones are different and don't fit.
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01-31-2015, 10:51 PM | #15 |
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Re: Australian A's
I do not plan on selling this car in my lifetime, and I hope my son won't either. That being said, does the Australian build affect value? I'm going to keep digging and get a whole history of this car put together!
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02-01-2015, 12:41 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
Are you saying Geelong stamped the metal bodies inhouse in 1928 ? |
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02-01-2015, 01:42 AM | #17 |
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Re: Australian A's
I am no expert on Canadian export A's, but I do own one. Re some of the previous quotes ; the first 150,000 Canadian engines were CA ......., after that they were done in batches of about 10,000 with 3 letters, eg. CAQ, CAE etc. until mid '31.
If your car has an Aussie tag on the seat frame somewhere, it has its true bona fides. I do not think Geelong was stamping body panels in 1928 or '29 but they were building up these imported panels & using wooden sub & door framing. They were stamping for 1930 '31 [ same, no change to any US '31 types] but not fenders, hoods, just bodywork & probably not all panels were 100% made in Aust. The top frames of a '28 '29 Phaeton should be the same as Nth America, but not the '30 '31's. Most foreign Model A's went back to the US with Servicemen in the '60's [ a lot from NZ] because they had a lot more money than us & they went back in Hercules planes for nothing. Open cars were common Downunder then but not so many in the US, hence the Phaetons & roadsters . It still goes on , mostly from Sth America to US & Europe. We buy all your '50's & '60's cars. |
02-01-2015, 03:29 AM | #18 | |
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Re: Australian A's
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The wood used in Australian bodies was Mountain Ash, which is a type of Eucalyptus. The wood was used for main body side stringers, cross pieces between the stringers except the rear and seat risers front and rear. The panel between the front and rear doors has a beefier mount bracket compared to the US phaeton bodies. The phaetons have the side curtain box under the front seat, and is accessed by lifting the front seat base, and sliding the curtains between the seat base support ribs. Holden never made a lot of bodies for Ford, if any at all, everything I've read and heard says that they didn't. Ford made most of their own bodies, with some more exotic styles made by companies like Propert of Sydney, who made fabric bodied Fordors, and Brownlie and Keats of Launceston who made a body they called a Tudor-Coupe. |
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02-01-2015, 03:39 AM | #19 |
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Re: Australian A's
And Propert made accessory folding camping bodies for phaetons .
The back of the front seat was hinged and folded down. And the only wood in the doors is a horizontal piece that looks like an anti intrusion bar sandwiched between the inner frame and outer skin. I got no idea what this was for, as it would not do anything much. Would actually help in a T-bone prang, but this was not mandated law until about 1977 to have to fit anti intrusion bars. I guess all 28/29/s had this wood in door ? |
02-01-2015, 04:45 AM | #20 |
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Re: Australian A's
[ The phaetons have the side curtain box under the front seat, and is accessed by lifting the front seat base, and sliding the curtains between the seat base support ribs.
.[/QUOTE] Not sure that this statement is entirely correct. My Phaeton being an early 1928 (AR) had the curtain box under the rear floor. The compartment was just over 2" deep and reached from the rear seat riser to well under the font seat. There was no doubt that the timber was the original.
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02-01-2015, 04:53 AM | #21 | |
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Re: Australian A's
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02-01-2015, 05:15 AM | #22 |
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Re: Australian A's
My '29 tourer has the curtain storage compartment under the rear floor and no wood in the doors.
Tudortomnz may very well be correct about the tops not compatible only on the '30 and '31 models.
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02-01-2015, 06:12 AM | #23 |
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Re: Australian A's
That's very interesting! I have never seen a door without the piece of wood in it. I obviously made the wrong assumption that all doors have it. Still learning.
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02-01-2015, 06:22 AM | #24 |
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Re: Australian A's
Same for my E28/AR Phaeton (June 28 on the firewall).
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02-01-2015, 06:31 AM | #25 |
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Re: Australian A's
Fortuitously I have just been corresponding with Carl Becker who is extremely knowlegable about about Canadian engine numbers, (in fact he has month by month engine numbers available.). His dates give,
CA 1 (Feb 1928)through to CA CA78127 (Dec 31 1928), CA78128 ( Jan 1 1929) thru to CA150120 (August 31 1929). ...then it goes to the qwer extra letters which ran up up no 10000 before going to the next letter... CAQ1 Sep 1929 to CA10000 (Nov4 1929) CAW1 (Nov5 1929) to CAW 10000 (Feb 4 1930) CAE1 to CAE10000 (March 14 1930) CAR1 to CAR 10000 ( April 14 1930) CAT 1 and so on ....so one can accurately date a CA prefixed engine. Did none of the Aussie assembled cars get a number stamped on the chassis? Last edited by johnbuckley; 02-01-2015 at 06:39 AM. |
02-01-2015, 06:45 AM | #26 |
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Re: Australian A's
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02-01-2015, 07:12 AM | #27 |
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Re: Australian A's
Brighton,
to answer your question on Australian build affecting value-overall I would have to say no. The bigger issue would be right hand vs left hand drive............ obviously here in the US, left hand drive has always been preferred over right hand, giving a larger audience. However, I would be inclined to believe, very few A's are exported any longer from Australia to the US. Your values there are higher and you tend to hold on to what is already in your country. More economics then rarity as to value. |
02-01-2015, 07:24 AM | #28 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
Sorry John can't give you a definitive answer on that one. I certainly have never seen a chassis number on a bare frame. But then I haven't seen to many bare frames either.I often wonder why they were stamped in an area that was going to be covered when the body was installed. What was the point?
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02-01-2015, 09:50 AM | #29 |
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Re: Australian A's
My '28 Phaeton has curtain storage under the rear floor (wood) too
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02-01-2015, 03:20 PM | #30 |
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Re: Australian A's
My storage is under rear floor as well. All ash there too.
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02-01-2015, 03:55 PM | #31 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
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02-01-2015, 04:57 PM | #32 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
The thlot pickens!!
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02-01-2015, 06:38 PM | #33 |
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Re: Australian A's
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02-01-2015, 07:23 PM | #34 |
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Re: Australian A's
Mine has a one piece cross shaft but after 85 years, I don't think we can form any opinions based on just one car. Any one else able to give confirmation/contradiction here?
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02-01-2015, 07:47 PM | #35 |
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Re: Australian A's
The rearwards curtain box does clear the later separate handbrake shaft , in case anyone was maybe referring to the reason of a more front one.
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02-01-2015, 10:46 PM | #36 |
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Re: Australian A's
Good discussion on the Aussie Model A's. Wish I had been more vigilant on them when I lived there in the ''70's & '80's.
I would think [ dangerous] the early to late '28's would have the US type rear floor curtain compartment. Some [ v. small number] of the early roadsters & phaetons were imported & are mostly all steel, but most were built up in Australia using wood & other variations. Many of the '29's in Aussie are to all purposes '28 types. Did they ever go to the teacup tailamp mounted on the rear 'guard/fender like my Canadian Tudor? In the Model A era, the standard bodies were manufactured by Ford Australia & in '28/'29 the 2 Sedans available [ Tudor & Briggs Fabric Back 4 dr] were imported built up from Canada but assembled & painted/finished in Aust.. For 1930, Ford Australia manufactured the Fordor 3W Sedans & partly manufactured the only Coupe sold, the Sport Coupe which had a Fordor door, not a Coupe door ; some initial Spt Cp's were fully imported with the steel Coupe door. Most Aussie production was of the open types , about 40%; roadsters/sport[s] rdstrs & tourer & sport[s] tourer [ Phaeton]. They actually advertised them as ''Sports'', not Sport. |
02-01-2015, 11:28 PM | #37 |
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Re: Australian A's
Like I said, mine is on rear floor, and mine is a late 28 phaeton. Engine assembled in October acording to records which means by the time it was shipped and car was built, it probably wasn't sold until 29. Mine also only has the ca prefix, not a 3 letter. I should see the car in the next few months and will take detailed pics of all numbers and plates. Would be interested to see the seat plate with Australian build designation from someone else's car to compare.
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02-01-2015, 11:37 PM | #38 |
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Re: Australian A's
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02-02-2015, 12:16 AM | #39 | |
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Re: Australian A's
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02-02-2015, 12:46 AM | #40 |
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Re: Australian A's
You probably know this already, Pooch, but more info on the Propert company can be found at http://www.timetoroam.com.au/propert-caravans/
It's a pretty interesting (but brief) story. I couldn't see anything about the camper bodied Model A on that site, but there were some interesting photos of their coachwork and caravans, including this one. Any idea on the vehicle - a special, perhaps? Propert's "camping bodies" are proudly proclaimed on the signage in the window. Sorry for the distraction, but it is related..... sort of. Last edited by Hoogah; 02-02-2015 at 01:37 AM. Reason: Extra comment. |
02-02-2015, 02:28 AM | #41 |
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Re: Australian A's
Good stuff there Hoogah.
Propert must have took bare chassis and built their own bodies. Everything from an egg beater to a model A camping body. Would have been fun to have been on the development/ideas board of that company. |
02-02-2015, 02:44 AM | #42 |
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Re: Australian A's
+1 pooch
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02-02-2015, 02:47 AM | #43 |
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Re: Australian A's
Just read that story on the Propert family.
I have seen their folding vans at shows. Inspired me to do an ebay search . Dozens of kitchen items . Would not it to be cool to have a Model A with a camping body, a folding caravan, and all its utensils made by Propert.... Hoogah, you are now on a mission to collect . |
02-02-2015, 04:19 AM | #44 |
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Re: Australian A's
I have enough trouble managing ONE project!!
Did you see the other sign on the Propert building? It says "Open cars transformed into modern closed type". I wonder what they did to achieve that - replace the body or modify a tourer body to make it into closed car (some kind of permanent top)? There must be other examples of their coach building around. I wonder where? |
02-02-2015, 08:08 AM | #45 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
I had a quick scan and could find nothing about the curtain box. Most of the cars my dad picked up from farms in the local area in the 60's had the curtain box under the front seat. I cannot recall ever seeing one that he had that had the box under the rear floor. If I remember on the weekend when I'm going for a visit, I'll ask him how many of each he picked up. |
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02-02-2015, 08:22 AM | #46 | |
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Re: Australian A's
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02-02-2015, 05:41 PM | #47 |
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Re: Australian A's
If you read the Oz magazine 'restored cars', they had an article a few years ago. There is also an article in the booklet from the 50th aniversery meet in Canberra from 1978.
From memory, the body was wooden frame from cowl back, and cover in fabric. It is listed in the colour option for 1929, along with Argonaut brown and mist grey on steel fordor bodies. It doesn't appear in the 1930 colours, so appears to be a 1929 body only. |
02-02-2015, 08:49 PM | #48 |
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Re: Australian A's
Here are some piccies of side curtain tray in my June 28-built Australian assembled phaeton. The tray is accessed from the rear passenger compartment and extends under the front seat.
One of my roller-blind type front side curtains is on top of the two conventional rear side curtains. If anyone knows where I can access replacement parts for the spring loaded mechanism inside this blind, I'd love to know. There are more photos of this blind in one of my albums. |
03-19-2015, 02:50 AM | #49 |
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Re: Australian A's
My early 28, May stamped engine wall. Has side curtain draw access via trap door in rear floor. Ash has been used for timber sections. Doors have wood inserted in them. It has the early two piece cross brake system. There is no engine number stamped on the frame.
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09-26-2022, 08:33 AM | #50 |
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Re: Australian A's
Resurrecting this thread after a few years.
I just picked up a 1928 Model A that I believe was manufactured in Australia (it has the original dealer tag for a dealer in Perth) but then was taken to Rhodesia and then to South Africa before coming to the US in 2002. The engine is from a 1931 Canadian Model A, so I can't base anything off of the engine number, and thus far I can't find any numbers or ID material in the body (though I haven't taken everything apart). Is there any way to figure out if it is an Australian manufactured car? As a note, it has the EXACT floor storage that Hoogah shows in post #48. Thanks in advance for your help! |
09-26-2022, 03:52 PM | #51 |
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Re: Australian A's
I am 99% sure that this car is mine. Unfortunately, the engine was swapped at some point between 1977 and 1988 (the last documented time periods for it) but otherwise, the story of this car matches everything I know about mine.
I'm trying to see if the original owner of the car who took it to Rhodesia is still alive in order to determine if it is the same car - or at least hear the story of how he found and restored it. Keeping my fingers crossed! Question for the group: does anyone know of a source for Australian Mountain Ash, preferably in the US? For some reason, it seems quite difficult to find and I'd like to replace some of the non-ash boards used in the restoration of the car, as it's now a mix of about 85% ash and 15% red oak. Thanks! Dave |
09-26-2022, 05:57 PM | #52 |
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Re: Australian A's
Does your car use Robertson screws in the body like the Canadian cars?
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09-26-2022, 05:57 PM | #53 |
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Re: Australian A's
Mountain Ash can often refer to a number of species but usually https://anpsa.org.au/plant_profiles/eucalyptus-regnans/
Don't know if it would be a plantation timber in the US. The wood in the bodies probably came from forest giants cut down with axes. |
09-27-2022, 04:11 AM | #54 | |
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Re: Australian A's
Quote:
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09-27-2022, 08:29 AM | #55 |
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Re: Australian A's
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09-27-2022, 09:46 AM | #56 |
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Re: Australian A's
Slotted or square recess?
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09-27-2022, 09:54 AM | #57 |
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Re: Australian A's
My hit...yes, slotted, not square.
Here are some photos under the front seat. The painted over plate appears to not have anything on it as it feels smooth. Rather strange not to have anything printed on it, but I can't see anything there as far as stamping. While the wood appears old, I couldn't find any other numbers around the seat. Granted, if this was restored in the 60s, the wood itself is 60+ years old so it definitely would look aged regardless. You definitely can see the difference in wood with the storage compartment though. |
09-27-2022, 10:08 AM | #58 |
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Re: Australian A's
For interest's sake, here's some of the documentation that came with the car, tracing it back to at least 1989:
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09-27-2022, 10:12 AM | #59 |
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Re: Australian A's
Ford of Canada had marketing rights to many of the commonwealth countries in that time frame with some exceptions. This included Australia and New Zealand and Ford of Canada owned the manufacturing and assembly facilities at the time so most all early production came from Canada and was assembled at the various plants with Geelong being the largest facility with a nearby port. Body manufacture in Australia was limited till 1934 or so. The phaetons didn't have all that much wood in them and were easier to ship in knock down. They likely just shipped the side and rear panels if the floors and seat risers were wood. The doors would have been easier to ship but the skin panels may have been easier to press out and nail over a wood frame. Ford of Canada always did things differently in some aspects. The chassis was likely shipped from Canada and the rest was done in Australia.
Fords were also assembled in Ireland and in England until the full scale plant was completed at Dagenham in 1931. Engines were produced in the UK at Cork, Ireland and Manchester, England before the Dagenham facility was completed but complete cars were made there from 1931 on. A good portion of export knock down cars were supplied around the world by the Rouge plant in Dearborn as well. This included South America and South Africa and many were right hand drive vehicles. If it was made in the USA it will generally have a frame number stamped in the usual location per Ford procedure but some assembly plants outside the US may have not followed that procedure to the letter. Canadian built model A vehicles don't generally have a frame number. The engine number was considered to be proof enough of ID in a lot of countries so that was all they stamped. Don't hesitate to start a new thread. Using these old ones can be confusing. Last edited by rotorwrench; 09-27-2022 at 10:43 AM. |
09-29-2022, 03:27 PM | #60 |
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Re: Australian A's
If you find a Foster can under any of the seats...it's Australian
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Keith Shawnee OK '31 SW 160-B |
09-29-2022, 05:18 PM | #61 | |
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Re: Australian A's
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10-22-2023, 02:23 AM | #62 |
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Re: Australian A's
Gooday,
I have an August 28 Australian A tourer ( Phaeton ) it used to have a curtain storage between front and rear seat under the floor but is long gone as this old jalopy sat out in the weather for over 40 years. I am finally in a situation where I can afford to have a go at beginning restoration. Problem I have is all the wood in the thing is completely beyond using, I need plans , diagrams perhaps measurements to begin this mammoth task. Has any one done one of these using Steel? I am pretty handy on both . Would love to hear from anyone in Austyralia or elsewhere that my be able to get me on the right track. Thanks in advance. John Baulch |
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10-22-2023, 05:44 PM | #63 | |
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Re: Australian A's
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10-22-2023, 08:07 PM | #64 |
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Re: Australian A's
There is a Facebook group called "Aussie A Models" as well. Mostly hot rodders, but some restorers.
Parts come up for sale on it, and general chat. There have been recent photos of a roadster being steeled out. Back in the 70's I think there was someone doing a wood kit. A few years ago a new wood floor pan came up on ebay. If you are lucky someone may have a wood kit stashed away they are never going to get around to using. |
10-23-2023, 01:38 AM | #65 |
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Re: Australian A's
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10-23-2023, 01:39 AM | #66 | |
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Re: Australian A's
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10-23-2023, 05:52 PM | #67 |
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Re: Australian A's
John, Private message sent but I can only hope that with only 3 posts you get it.
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10-25-2023, 05:49 PM | #68 |
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Re: Australian A's
I would think the conversion to LHD would effect the value more than it being Australian built. If it were mine I'd be tempted to convert it back. Yes RHD here is a pain but the uniqueness makes it worthwhile. We gave our daughter the choice of 2 Minis we had a genuine freshly restored 1100cc Cooper S or a later Rover one with RHD. She chose the RHD.
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10-26-2023, 10:05 AM | #69 | |
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Re: Australian A's
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Member, MAFCA and MARC Current owner, 1928 RHD Australian-built Phaeton CA4752 "Felicity" and a 1931 Victoria "Katie" Former owner, 1929 Phaeton, 1929 Fordor |
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10-26-2023, 09:37 PM | #70 |
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Re: Australian A's
The plate has the words "Made in Australia" on it.
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