What am I doing wrong.

[Grumps]

I'm working on my 30 Coupe's brakes and am having some problems, so I need some help and advice. I'll start with what I have done so far and see if anyone can see if or where I've gone wrong. I bought new, made in the US, cast iron brake drums for the front and had the rear drums turned. I also bought new brake liners from Snyders that is supposed to be use with cast iron brake drums. I removed the old liners and installed the new with rivets. I used chalk on the new liners and filed and sanded them where they were high so that the entire liner is in contact with the drums. I choose not to have the new drums and hubs swedged together, (I was told that it usually causes warpage) instead I had the new hub bolt for the front swedged into the hub and then I drilled the bolt holes in the drum larger which allowed them to fit over the hub bolts. Now everything is cleaned and inspected and ready to put it all back together and went as planed until I started putting the new drum on. It was really tight getting it on and could barely be turned by hand. Shouldn't the drum turn easier especially if the brake wedge is adjusted all the way out? I even put the tire on, and it was still difficult to turn. Help please.

[Patrick L.]

These are not 'modern' drum brakes. They need to be swedged and should then be turned. Thats probably where your problem is and another set of drums will probably be needed.

To get the shoes to fit the drums I line the drum with sand paper and then 'rub' the lined shoes against the sand paper.

[Ivan in southeast va.]

I bought the front drums with the hubs already installed and still had to true up (turn) the drums a little.

[nkaminar]

Grumps, I would like more information on the studs that were swedged in the hubs. This is new to me. Where did you get them? Can you supply a link to a web site that has some information and photos?

My experience with the drums that are held on with the wheel is that there is a locating feature on the hub that centers the brake drum. Is there a similar feature with your drums? How did you make sure the holes you drilled in the drums are placed accurately? How did you center the brake shoes?

If everything is centered and the brakes are still tight, then the drum is too small relative to the shoes. You will either have to have the drums turned or sand down the shoes. Probably better to have the drums turned if you can find a shop that will do that. You could use your chalk trick on the drums to see if they are true.

Please don't forget to keep us informed on your progress as we all learn from these discussions.

[Grumps]

The studs that were used are the same that is used when you have the hub and the drum swedged together and were bought from Snyders. We just applied enough pressure with the press to secure them in the hub and not the drum. As far as to how the holes were drilled into the new drums, the existing holes that were in the drums were used and only enlarged so that they would allow the drum to fit over the enlarged part of the stud and hub. The drum is then secured to the hub by the 5 lug nuts that holds the wheel and tire on the car. This way the drum can be removed and replaced without having to cut off the studs, drill them out of the drum, cut off the stud again, then knock them out of the hub. You then have to buy new studs and have them swedged into hub and drum. I have read and been told that during the swedgeing process there is a huge chance that damage can be done to the hub and new drum resulting in having to have the new drums turned. I have not changed anything on the mechanical brakes just the way that the brake drum is placed on the hub.

[jack backer]

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Once you figure your drag issue (shoe vs drum diameter) run a set of teds floaters to compensate for the slide on drum.

Modern slide on drums is the Bendix self energizing brake, not the centered design ford used,which relies on the drum held to a ‘constant’

[nkaminar]

Grumps, You are going to get a lot of negative comments because you are doing something different. But if the drum hole in the center is a tight fit on the hub and there are no interference issues with the studs then it just may work well. To test this I would be inclined to take the backing plate off and mount the drum with the wheel and then use a dial indicator to measure the runout of the inside of the drum.

Getting back to your original question, the drum is too tight on the shoes. Do the test as above and if the drum is true then either have it turned a few thousands or sand off some of the new liners. Also make sure the shoes are centered. There is tool available from the vendors for measuring the shoes to assure they are centered.

If the test as described above indicates the drum does not run true then you may want to rethink things.

[Grumps]

Because of the heat here in Texas I haven't gotten to do as much work on it as I would like to. I did pull both front drums and shoes yesterday and did a little more work on them. After replacing everything the drums are turning a lot easier and seems to be moving smooth when turned which tells me that the pads don't have high spots and that I'm headed in the right direction. I may end up having the drums turned and have a place that is close that can do them. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress.

[Pete W.]

I did exactly what you did. New everything. I also had so much drag I could hardly turn 2 out of the 4 drums. Thought it would just wear in but the drums got so hot in a short test drive I couldn't touch them. I removed them both and re trued and sanded the lining face again checking for high spots. I discovered that the lining edge was rubbing against the inside face of the drum. Used shims for the rear and it didn't improve. Resorted to taking off about a 16th or more off the edge of the shoes. Worked for me. Certainly shouldn't have to do it! I brushed a little paint in the corner where I thought it was rubbing. Put the drums on, spun by hand and the paint rubbed on the shoe edge and left a mark..

[Planojc]

I had to sand the linings down on mine to get the wheels to turn.

[Fhane]

To me it sounds like you did a lot wrong. Drums are to be swedged to the hubs. This process involves a proper press and proper anvil installed. The press and anvil must be able to withstand the tons of pressure to do the swedging properly. Done right the hubs and drums are cleaned, surfaced are pre-bolted together. Iron to Iron, if you know what I mean. One stud nut at a time is removed and swedged in an alternating patern, similar to tightening the wheels when installed on the car. I have not seen a rear hub bolt in years that hasn’t been doubled stamped by the manufacturer . Check for a small ridge around the inside edge with your fingernail. We turn all rear studs in a lathe before installing so a prober fit is made. The drum will warp during the swedging process. The straighter the press the less the warpage. NOW you put the swedged hub and drum on a BRAKE LATHE and true. Make sure you clean your brake shoes before installing the linings. The lining must be installed tight to the shoe. Usually if the following is done properly all you have to do in kerff the edge of the shoes and the shoes will mate to the drum perfectly. The kerff according to Ford prints is about one inch up the end of the lining. Drums have to be concentric to the hub. Re-drilling drums without have the new hole in the proper place just wont work. A .0005 off could be a disastrous fit. Your local machine shop probably wont have the equipment or experience to do this job. I have made the swedging process somewhat simplified in this explanation. I do not mean to criticize you, you just got some bad information in my opinion.

[Grumps]

After being unable to locate a good reliable shop that had experience with swedging the hub to the drum I started to look for information and alternative ways to replace the front brakes. I talked to a few of the local guys that I've known that have built and worked on old cars all their lives and the one thing that every one of them asked was why did the hub and the brake drum have to be swedged together. On cars in the early 40's the studs were pressed onto the hub and the brake drums were held on the hub by tire rim and lug nuts. Now my question is, why can't this work on my Model A? If the only reason that it can't be done is because that's not the way that it was done back in 1930 then something is wrong. I'm not trying to upset anyone with what I'm trying to do. I just want to fix my car so that I can drive and enjoy it and be safe. This is not the first old car that I've had or worked on, but it is my first Model A.

[Synchro909]

Fhane is on the money.

[Patrick L.]

The early hubs were machined to center the drums and usually had 2 retainer screws to proper center/hold the drum to hub.

[rotorwrench]

Ford and many other manufacturers swaged drums to hubs. Ford did it to 1948 so I don't know where some folks get the idea that they didn't. A lot of shops back in the day had equipment to arc the shoes to the drums. Not all need it but a lot depends on the linings chosen to reline the shoes or what company made the new shoes. Some linings were oversized to fit worn drums better. Mechanical brakes have to have a good fit or they aren't as effective as they were designed to be. Lockheed brakes are just not as efficient as the more expensive Lincoln Bendix brakes were. The Lincolns were heavy and expensive so they always had the best available equipment.

The old model A drums were pressed steel types so they definitely needed to be well attached to the hubs. The cast drums don't flex like the steel ones under hard use but they still need to be as solid as is possible.

[Fhane]

Synchro909 Thanks

[Big hammer]

Originally Posted by Grumps

After being unable to locate a good reliable shop that had experience with swedging the hub to the drum I started to look for information and alternative ways to replace the front brakes. I talked to a few of the local guys that I've known that have built and worked on old cars all their lives and the one thing that every one of them asked was why did the hub and the brake drum have to be swedged together. On cars in the early 40's the studs were pressed onto the hub and the brake drums were held on the hub by tire rim and lug nuts. Now my question is, why can't this work on my Model A? If the only reason that it can't be done is because that's not the way that it was done back in 1930 then something is wrong. I'm not trying to upset anyone with what I'm trying to do. I just want to fix my car so that I can drive and enjoy it and be safe. This is not the first old car that I've had or worked on, but it is my first Model A.

I’ve been following this thread, the title opened you up for opinions that you probably weren’t gonna like.

As for the tight when installed you needed to measure the inside diameter of the drums and measure the outside diameter of the installed shoes. Grind the shoes down or turn the drums to fit . I believe new drums are made smaller diameter so when the are installed on a hub the can be turned true, then when finished close to the 11 inch normal diameter.

When you get your A back on the road please report back your findings!

[redmodelt]

When the drums are sold as just drums, they are NOT sized to just install and run. They need to be sized and trued AFTER assembled to hubs. If this has not been done, the drums not the shoes would need attention.

[Grumps]

Well as it turns out the problem that I was having with the new drums being too tight was because they were machined undersized so that I would have material for the drums to be trued up once I assemble them to the hubs. The reason that they have to be trued is because of the swedgeing process which I didn't do. I had the new drums turned and everything is working as it should.

[Ivan in southeast va.]

Don't you love it when a plan comes together.