Harmonic Balancer

[Ruth]

Model A Harmonic Balancer discussion continued from earlier Thread. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...bration+damper

I felt I was high jacking this thread on Gear Backlash by continuing to ask questions on Engine Restorations LTD Harmonic Balancer so I started this new thread.

From previous thread;

Originally Posted by Ruth

I have never seen a Harmonic balancer pulley for a Model A. It sounds like an excellent idea. Are they only available in New Zealand?

Originally Posted by wensum

The new Zealand made Damper is the same size as the original pulley but only a little bit deeper. The cost including shipping is very reasonable. "These dampers are made by Murray Horn in Levin N.Z. His Company is Engine Restorations Ltd. His email is [email protected]
Murray says this is the best way to contact him.
The dampers are a straight fit to replace the standard Model A pulley. An added benefit is a shallow reverse scroll in the rope seal area to help contain oil."

Originally Posted by wensum

Yes the replacement harmonic balancer pulley simply replaces the original pulley. However, due to its extra depth it sits quite close to the front spring U bolts, and it is necessary to install the fan belt before fitting the pulley as one can't feed a fan belt in once the pulley is installed

Originally Posted by SAJ

I carry a linked belt in both cars with the harmonic balancers. This makes it easy to replace a broken belt. These linked belts are good for tens of thousands of miles.
SAJ in NZ

After some thought and talking to Murray I decides to try one of his harmonic Balancers.

I received my harmonic balancer today. Nice piece. Weighs 5 - 5 1/2 lbs. Can I assume with the “reverse scroll” that a modern lip seal can not be used? I’m running a modern seal now.

I did pose this question to Murray but have not heard back yet. I was just wondering if anyone on the Barn had experience with this.





Thanks, Ruth

[Synchro909]

From New Zealand. I've heard good reports but haven't had a chance to try mine yet. SOON though.

[Ruth]

Yes from New Zealand. I just heard back from Murray. He confirmed to use the rope seals. It will be a bit before I can install mine also.

[Dan McEachern]

I contacted him also and had the same question regarding the spiral on the seal surface, but I have not asked if they are available without the spiral, as I want to run a modern seal in the front and a lip seal won't last long with the spiral.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Dan McEachern

I contacted him also and had the same question regarding the spiral on the seal surface, but I have not asked if they are available without the spiral, as I want to run a modern seal in the front and a lip seal won't last long with the spiral.

You could put a Speedisleeve on it.

[Ruth]

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I had not thought about the spiral on the seal surface either. I had wanted to run my Bill Stipes front seal that is on the car now.

Originally Posted by Pete

You could put a Speedisleeve on it.

That may be something to look into.

[whirnot]

So, it appears that were you to break a fan belt, you would have to remove the front pulley in order to replace it?

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by whirnot

So, it appears that were you to break a fan belt, you would have to remove the front pulley in order to replace it?

I think you would have to jack the engine up. It sounds like a hassle I know. But how often do you break a fan belt?

I am going to carry one of these belts with me 'just in case'.

[JOHN CT]

I have a 31 tutor. I’ve changed a few fan belts in the past 20 years and I have enough clearance to change the belt without removing the pulley. Isn’t that the way it should be?

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Ruth

I am going to carry one of these belts with me 'just in case'.

Where do you get this type of belt?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Where do you get this type of belt?

Grainger. Harbor Freight. Ebay. Most any industrial V belt supplier.

These have a big advantage in that they do not flutter at high speed and cause vibration like a standard V belt.

[wensum]

I'm running a modern seal with my harmonic balancer without problems or leaks.

[Synchro909]

They are available with or without the spiral so rope or modern seal compatible.

[john in illinois]

What are the benefits of this balancer. I probably missed it because I did not see earlier threads.

John

[Pete]

Originally Posted by john in illinois

What are the benefits of this balancer. I probably missed it because I did not see earlier threads.

John

Longer crankshaft life.

The heavier the damper/balancer or the lighter the flywheel/clutch assembly, the better. It has to do with reducing torsional vibration in the crank. You can't normally feel this vibration in the seat of the pants.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Where do you get this type of belt?

I got it at Rubber Belts Online. They sell it by the foot. it is called PowerTwist Plus. The ⅝" size fits Model A pulleys.https://www.rubberbeltsonline.com/category-s/334.htm

Originally Posted by Synchro909

They are available with or without the spiral so rope or modern seal compatible.

I wish I had known that when I ordered it. Murray never mentioned it when I asked him about using a modern seal.

Originally Posted by wensum

I'm running a modern seal with my harmonic balancer without problems or leaks.

Does your harmonic balancer have the spiral?

[tinkirk]

Originally Posted by Ruth

I got it at Rubber Belts Online. They sell it by the foot. it is called PowerTwist Plus. The ⅝" size fits Model A pulleys.https://www.rubberbeltsonline.com/category-s/334.htm


I wish I had known that when I ordered it. Murray never mentioned it when I asked him about using a modern seal.


Does your harmonic balancer have the spiral?

I'm running a modern seal with mine, I've got about 400 miles on it sense installed and no issue's as of yet, and yes i do believe it makes a difference!
Terry

[whirnot]

Originally Posted by Ruth

I think you would have to jack the engine up. It sounds like a hassle I know. But how often do you break a fan belt?

I am going to carry one of these belts with me 'just in case'.

I had forgotten about those! I used to keep one for industrial emergency use. They work well and are flexible. Good solution!

[Ruth]

I just wish it wasn't so RED!

[daveymc29]

Most times when you lose a fan belt can't one just drive on home and replace it there. The thermo cycle should keep the water circulating and with common sense driving you should be okay. On a tour is a different story and carrying the industrial belt seems prudent if you have the harmonic balancer. That's what I will plan on doing if and when I get one installed. (Thinking of putting on and one of Snyder 6.? heads on the roadster. I is a little underpowered with the old Police head and 3:54 gears, though I can shift down and cure that, just have to drive slower.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Ruth

I just wish it wasn't so RED!

It doesn't have to be red, there's different makes available.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

Most times when you lose a fan belt can't one just drive on home and replace it there. The thermo cycle should keep the water circulating...

I guess it depends on how long your battery lasts.

Originally Posted by katy

It doesn't have to be red, there's different makes available.

Yeah, I saw a gray one after I bought the red one. It's all good. By the looks of this belt it will outlast me. After more research I'm thinking more and more when I install the Balancer I will just run the PowerTwist belt all the time.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ruth

I guess it depends on how long your battery lasts.

Most batteries will last a long, LONG time --especially when the lights are LEDs!! Maybe another reason to use LED bulbs??



I think it is often funny, -almost to the point about being comical how some people are so worried about what if something breaksdown on the side of the road and all the hypothetical what-ifs' that potentially could happen. I've seen guys that carried better parts under the seat of their Model-A as a back-up contingency in case they breakdown going to town to get ice cream on a Saturday evening. Why not properly restore each and every component for peace of mind and leave all the spare stuff at home?? Then on the very slim chance that something does malfunction, whip out the trusty AAA card and have them tote you & your car home where it can be repaired in a less-stressful environment called your Garage.

[wensum]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Most batteries will last a long, LONG time --especially when the lights are LEDs!! Maybe another reason to use LED bulbs??



I think it is often funny, -almost to the point about being comical how some people are so worried about what if something breaksdown on the side of the road and all the hypothetical what-ifs' that potentially could happen. I've seen guys that carried better parts under the seat of their Model-A as a back-up contingency in case they breakdown going to town to get ice cream on a Saturday evening. Why not properly restore each and every component for peace of mind and leave all the spare stuff at home?? Then on the very slim chance that something does malfunction, whip out the trusty AAA card and have them tote you & your car home where it can be repaired in a less-stressful environment called your Garage.

My philosophy to a Tee (or should that be an A?) one of my reasons for going back to an A after owning some reasonably exotic vintage cars, was its simplicity and the readily available spare parts. I carry no spares but have had to call on the AA once which ultimately proved to be a loose wire on the ignition switch, my fault and not a failure of any Model A component.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by katy

It doesn't have to be red, there's different makes available.

The red pulley would be faster .

[johnneilson]

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

The red pulley would be faster .

worth at least 2 HP.........

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by wensum

My philosophy to a Tee (or should that be an A?) one of my reasons for going back to an A after owning some reasonably exotic vintage cars, was its simplicity and the readily available spare parts. I carry no spares but have had to call on the AA once which ultimately proved to be a loose wire on the ignition switch, my fault and not a failure of any Model A component.

You should have called the AAA. If you really did call AA they would make you come to meetings.

Whoops, I see that you are from New Zealand. In the USA, "AAA" is the
American Automobile Association and "AA" means Alcoholics Anonymous.

[wensum]

We have an electric fan with a manual switch and very rarely need to switch it on. We keep an eye on the motometer and when the red starts to show which is usually only in serious stop-start traffic, we switch the fan on and it very quickly pulls the temperature down. The real point here is that in normal touring there is no need for a fan (this with an improved fast road motor running 7:1 head)

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by wensum

We have an electric fan with a manual switch and very rarely need to switch it on. We keep an eye on the motometer and when the red starts to show which is usually only in serious stop-start traffic, we switch the fan on and it very quickly pulls the temperature down. The real point here is that in normal touring there is no need for a fan (this with an improved fast road motor running 7:1 head)

Huh? Ya lost me. I thought we were talking about Harmonic Balancers.

[wensum]

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

Huh? Ya lost me. I thought we were talking about Harmonic Balancers.

Yes, but there was some concern about not being able to replace the fan belt if it broke and the discussion turned to how important is the fan and is it really necessary?
I was pointing out that as we don't have a conventional fan, only an electric one, it's surprising how rarely one needs to switch on the fan, proving that one should be able to drive under most conditions without a fan?

[The Master Cylinder]

It didn't occur to me that you were running an electric fan on a Model A. I actually thought you were mistakenly answering another thread in a different forum...

[Flathead]

I would find the generator to be important if we are talking about no belt.

[katy]

You can run a long time without the generator working, especially if you're not using the lights.

[brokenspoke]

How often do fan belts break???? I'm almost 70 and never broke a fan belt

[mfarley]

...

[katy]

I've had 2 break over the years, both on modern vehicles, both GM products, never had a belt break on a Ford product. Strange.

[Tom Wesenberg]

In 1964 I used my uncle's 1947 Dodge business coupe to take a drive in to the farm, and sure enough the belt broke. I tied a piece of rope around the fan and crank to drive 20 miles back to his house.


In the mid 80's the fan belt broke on my 1949 Chevy 1 1/2 ton truck when I was 200 miles from home. I was by a tractor shop and found out the Farmall tractor used the same belt. I think it's also the same belt as the Model A uses.

[old31]

I am thinking of installing a Murray harmonic balancer. The problem I see is that I have an alternator that looks like a generator. There is not much room between the block and the lower water pipe, maybe a 1/4" between the two.

So my belt is tight as it is and when I need to move the alternator, it barely fits on. I cant see jacking up the engine to move the alt, or work on the fan/water pump.

Any ideas?

[denniskliesen]

The harmonic balancer I got from Murray is about 1/4” diameter smaller than the original one piece I had on there. If that helps any.

[Synchro909]

If you have to remove the belt for any reason, you always remove it from the smallest pulley first and put it on the reverse way. That would be the water pump or alternator so if you loosen the belt and take it off the water pump, you should have enough slack to do what ever you want.

So my belt is tight as it is and when I need to move the alternator, it barely fits on. I cant see jacking up the engine to move the alt, or work on the fan/water pump.

Any ideas?

I'm guessing here but it seems to me that your water outlet at the bottom of the raditor might be in the wrong place. My lower hose is further from the block and I can vary it by twisting the whole hose and tube assembly. So much so that even with a belt 2" longer than spec, I can still have the belt clear the hose with it tensioned. That gives oodles of room to back off the alternator far enough to slip the belt off. Then, when the belt is slipped off the water pump too, it is VERY loose.

[old31]

When I had a generator I had more than enough room to play with the belt and easily install and remove it.

Now with this Powermaster because it is so wide it is a different ball game with a belt.

https://www.amazon.com/Powermaster-P...27076363&psc=1

[katy]

The info in your link shows that it is 8.4" in diameter, wow!

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by katy

The info in your link shows that it is 8.4" in diameter, wow!

I think that is the size of the box it comes in.

[Dave in MN]

I have one of the described dampening pulleys on my '31. To replace the belt, I need to remove the front spring bolt nuts and slide the u-bolts up and to the side to allow enough clearance between the front of the pulley to allow the belt to pass. After doing it once, it actually only takes about 15 minutes start to finish. It can be done on the road without any special tools or jack.

I have stock rear engine mounts so I know my engine is correctly located front to rear. I have a T-5 transmission installed and with the needed rear transmission cross support, it is not possible to raise the front of the engine easily when needing to replace the belt while on the road. The front lower edge of Murray's dampener is about 3/8" away from the front spring u-bolts and it is not possible to force a belt between. Removing the u-bolt nuts, lifting the u-bolts over the edge of the crank guide and up out of the cross-member while sliding them both to the side or completely out clears enough space to pass the belt between the dampener and the front cross-member. All this can be completed with the front of the car on the ground.
Good Day!

[old31]

Dave, what difference did you notice after you installed the balancer?

[old31]

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Originally Posted by katy

The info in your link shows that it is 8.4" in diameter, wow!

Katy the gen itself is 5-3/16. .. 5.1890

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by old31

Dave, what difference did you notice after you installed the balancer?

I installed it as part of a "B" engine build for a car I am building for touring. I have no bench mark to compare it to. That said, the engine runs strong and pretty smooth.
Good Day!

[Pete]

Normally adding a damper to either the front or rear of the engine you will NOT notice any difference in felt vibration. These things deal with TORSIONAL vibration from the rotating assembly, NOT the vibration you feel in the seat of the pants. That is a balancing problem.
Torsional vibration is what destroys cranks.

Modifying just about anything on an engine almost always has side effects.
It looks like Murray's damper has the advantage of still being able to change fan belts without raising the engine or loosening the spring U-bolts.

The damper's I have used for racing in the past were made from 8.5 inch diameter big block Chev dampers. They weigh 12 lb. In the case of dampers, bigger is better. They have the disadvantage (to some) of having to trim the front cross member to get them in though.

By the way, I never broke a crank when I was using one of those and it was spinning 6000 twice a lap.

[CarlG]

Pete:
I already have a dampener on the rear of my engine. Would I gain anything by putting one on the front as well?

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Pete:
I already have a dampener on the rear of my engine. Would I gain anything by putting one on the front as well?

As per Pete's explanation: Adding a dampener to the front of the engine would likely add to the service life of your crankshaft.

Dave

[katy]

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

I have one of the described dampening pulleys on my '31. To replace the belt, I need to remove the front spring bolt nuts and slide the u-bolts up and to the side to allow enough clearance between the front of the pulley to allow the belt to pass. After doing it once, it actually only takes about 15 minutes start to finish. It can be done on the road without any special tools or jack.

I have stock rear engine mounts so I know my engine is correctly located front to rear. I have a T-5 transmission installed and with the needed rear transmission cross support, it is not possible to raise the front of the engine easily when needing to replace the belt while on the road. The front lower edge of Murray's dampener is about 3/8" away from the front spring u-bolts and it is not possible to force a belt between. Removing the u-bolt nuts, lifting the u-bolts over the edge of the crank guide and up out of the cross-member while sliding them both to the side or completely out clears enough space to pass the belt between the dampener and the front cross-member. All this can be completed with the front of the car on the ground.
Good Day!

Have you considered a sectional belt as shown in post #8?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Pete:
I already have a dampener on the rear of my engine. Would I gain anything by putting one on the front as well?

Yes. A front one helps more than a rear one.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Pete

Yes. A front one helps more than a rear one.

Wasn't sure if putting both on there would conflict with each other.

[old31]

delete.

[old31]

Pete, Murray told me that I must raise the engine to change a belt.

Katy, I would buy a sectional belt as a spare.

This is the front engine mount that I have. With the generator that I have if it didnt work I would hate to have to send it back to New Zealand.

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P...etail/A-6030-B

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by katy

Have you considered a sectional belt as shown in post #8?

I would only consider it an option to get me back to a convenient spot to change the belt. I do not know enough about the sectional belt to trust it would give me long service life.
Maybe I need to do some research....
Good Day!

[wensum]

Surely the sectional belt is only carried in the unlikely but not unknown possibility of a broken fan belt? Then it enables roadside repairs until a normal fan-belt can be fitted in a workshop?

[The Master Cylinder]

I run a Power Twist Link Belt (sectional type) on my table saw. It has twin pulleys so two belts. It really runs smooth and cuts down on vibration. I see no reason why you could not run one all the time.

"The Power Twist Plus Link Belt is a high-performance V-belt that reduces vibration on table saws, drill presses, and other power tools by as much as 35%. It replaces the standard 1/2" V-belt on most machines, and the length can be adjusted by removing links. Whereas traditional drive belts can stretch and become misshapen (creating vibration as they rotate), the Power Twist belt is made up of interlocking segments of polyurethane elastomer and multiple plies of polyester fabric that retain their original shape, thereby reducing vibration. What's more, you can easily add or subtract links to get optimal tension on almost any machine!"