Model A prices rising?

[eagle]

I always keep an eye on model A prices on Craigs list, want ads, etc. I have noticed the prices being asked have risen by maybe even +30% in the last couple years. Is it just our area or have the rest of you noticed the same? 2-3 years ago it was common to see real nice ones, older restos for $6-7K. Now they are selling the same for maybe $9-14K. There are always the flyers asking $25K and the occasional good buy at $5K. I'm not talking points cars or basket cases, just the nice drivers. They are SELLING too. The days of 3-6 months listing an old car seem to be gone, they are selling faster it seems. The economy here in MN is pretty decent in some areas, maybe that has something to do with it?

[Mike V. Florida]

Asking and selling prices are different. If enough people see high asking prices they soon assume that is what they are worth and that new higher perception become the new selling price.

[rons49]

The prices on As are actually rising. The rest of the production car prices are generally flat. See, As are a better investment than dividend stocks or bonds.

[John S]

I sold a solid original 30 coupe 2 years ago for 7500 and was lucky to get that. It was a driver with fair paint and interior. Engine ran strong. I think it would bring 2-3 thousand more now. Just like the housing market, cars are starting to sell again.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I think much of it is because CDs are paying less than ½ percent and so what I am seeing/hearing is folks are looking for cars at around $10k or in the $20k budget range. To me it appears folks are having their CDs maturing and they are thinking if they take that money and buy something they can play with for a couple years and then sell it for a few hundred dollars profit (very likely) then they see it as making the same as what their CD would have and they got to enjoy their "investment" some.

I personally think we are in the beginning stages of another "price hike" in the hobby that will probably see 10%-15% value increase in the next couple years over what they were five years ago. Part of that reason is it is costing more to repair/refurbish/restore a car now so people have more in them.

.

[Bill in Al]

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Why is it costing more to restore now? hee hee

[700rpm]

If you're buying the prices are up. If you're selling, the prices are way down.

[bart78]

With cars like model a's I think it's labor prices bringing prices up. And hot rods. It's amazing what people will pay for a rusty body. I actually think car prices will come down in the next for years. Without getting into political junk. I think next year is going to be pretty rough on a lot of people. And these cars are some of the first things to go when people need money. And allso there are a lot more of these out there than people think.

[ronn]

Bottom line- the dollar is worth less every year, so yes, the number is higher, but the value is not....

Let's go back 20 years- a nice roadster was 12,500. isn't much more today.... not the greatest of investments from a monetary standpoint.

[eagle]

I am referring mainly to just the last 2-3 years, seems prices are up, AND the cars are selling.

[Hicktick]

I think the car prices are a result of what people see on e-bay and on barret-jackson .

They see asking prices on e-bay not what it sold for .
If you look at listings on e-bay most are dealers or flippers .
The add will say fresh frame off , from the ground up , restoration .
Not , I restored it myself and have to sell .

Look at the parts for sale , if you see a rolling chassis , running some with fenders , then someone just wanted the body of a nice car , and a title .

There was a rolling chassis with fenders and new tires on the swap meet here for 10k , running driving .

But it all boils down to what someone will pay .

[Arlen]

I'm with hicktick. Barret Jackson is driving the prices thru th e roof. People watch that show and think the rust bucket they have out back is all off the sudden a gold mine.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Arlen

I'm with hicktick. Barret Jackson is driving the prices thru th e roof. People watch that show and think the rust bucket they have out back is all off the sudden a gold mine.

dont forget that "American Pickers" show too. Dont get me wrong they do find some amazing stuff but some prices what they sell it for or sold for are ridiculous.

[Ross/Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Arlen

Barrett Jackson is driving the prices thru th e roof. People watch that show and think the rust bucket they have out back is all off the sudden a gold mine.

It's amazing what television, liquor and machismo does when combined. Add to that the announcers reading prepared texts about rarity and desirability of a particular model. Television cameras and bright lights can make a car look better than it really is according to some auction "drivers".Ssome even said that it was good that they were pushed on and off the auction block because the "cream puffs" had bad engine noises or smoked.

[Richard Wilson]

If one is to believe at least three current, popular TV shows, one can buy a junkyard dog, spend a few bucks and a week or less rebuilding time and then resell them for mega bucks. For me they are entertaining and a good laugh. For others they are a business model.

[Ross/Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Richard Wilson

If one is to believe at least three current, popular TV shows, one can buy a junkyard dog, spend a few bucks and a week or less rebuilding time and then resell them for mega bucks. For me they are entertaining and a good laugh. For others they are a business model.

I was watching one of those shows, I think it was Count's Kustom's and in the background was a car in progress that featured weeks earlier. I think that these cars, although featured on a weekly/weakly basis, take many weeks to complete.

[eagle]

I don't think anyone takes those shows too seriously, at least not many. I was taught that "TV is not real" and now more than ever, it is so true. I wasn't referring to the "asking" prices, I have seen a real increase in the actual selling amount and much less time for sale. As far as I'm concerned, I would wish them all at about 1950s prices as I don't ever plan on selling. I'm not going to be buying any more so I guess that doesn't matter either. However, I was interested what other people were seeing.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I am going to interject a few more observations based on my experience.

1) I would venture a guess that the majority of the folks here have never attended Barrett, -or any upscale classic car auction. If so, one quickly realizes that the TV portrayal is NOT the full depiction of what truly happens there, ...just like 'Pickers' doesn't just drive down the road and find stuff, nor do the car shops actually operate how it appears on the shows. My point is do not draw any conclusions or opinions based on the perception of what you see on TV.

2) Contrary to what some may think, a person that attends an upscale auction to make a purchase is not necessarily stupid/ignorant when they are there to buy a car. People who have money to spend did not get their money to spend by being stupid. Where there is a strong disagreement is the perceived value as it pertains to them, -vs. You.

3) The only thing I feel we all agree upon is an unlearned Seller oftentimes values their Model-A based on inaccurate data. "Grandpa said his Model-A was worth ...!" or "I saw on TV where a car just like mine brought... ". The market sets a more realistic value however the opposite can also take place (which I am seeing a lot right now!) A good example is I have several people calling wanting to purchase a nicely restored Coupe in the $10k range, and a restored Deluxe Roadster in the $15k range. The problem is most Sellers in the know won't let them go for that amount because they know there are folks out there that will pay more. I have tried to explain that to buyers and they tell me "That is all I am going to pay!". Ironically one person was looking for a Coupe and said he was only going to spend up to $10k. I told him I did not know of anything. I got a call over the weekend from him again saying everything he is finding in that price-range is junk. You don't know had badly I wanted to say " I tried to tell you!!" ...but instead I just bit my lip.

Maybe in a year or two we can bring this thread back up to the top to read whose prediction of Model-A values/prices increasing or decreasing is accurate. If history is any indicator, analyzing the past 4 or 5 decades shows their prices and/or value has increased. I doubt history will be wrong this time either!!

.

[Terry, NJ]

I love to make money! I love to save money! But most of all, I love it when I can exercise my real passion of collecting. That means availability at a price I can live with. I'm a hoarder by nature. I love owning many of one thing and I love owning several things. Rising prices may be nice for some, but people like me just grit their teeth. It means I'll be buying less cars and parts.
Terri

[bart78]

Of course they have gone up in price the past fourty or fifty years ago. The prices on model a's reflrcts labor costs. You can add parts to that but most stuff is pretty affordable. Fifty years ago machine shop labor was not what it is now. If it would have cost back them what it does not to have someone work on your car. There would be no mod a's. They carry some value because they are old. They are not a rare car. And the fact that they make nice hot rods has made the price go up. In a few years the way things are going. But when you have 4,000 in a motor. And if you have someone put a good paint job on it. You are allready up there pretty good. And that's just two things. These cars will continue to go up. But my opinion it will be due to labor prices.

[hefty lefty]

Originally Posted by bart78

Of course they have gone up in price the past fourty or fifty years ago. The prices on model a's reflrcts labor costs. You can add parts to that but most stuff is pretty affordable. Fifty years ago machine shop labor was not what it is now. If it would have cost back them what it does not to have someone work on your car. There would be no mod a's. They carry some value because they are old. They are not a rare car. And the fact that they make nice hot rods has made the price go up. In a few years the way things are going. But when you have 4,000 in a motor. And if you have someone put a good paint job on it. You are allready up there pretty good. And that's just two things. These cars will continue to go up. But my opinion it will be due to labor prices.

Pretty much. Despite unemployment, car labor is skyrocketing because few people want to do hot or cold dirty work any more. And restored high dollar CCCA classics and exotics and pro built street rods are bringing stupid money and that's where the talent goes.

And the only way to learn to do this is to do it....you need a place to work, tools, and time and the drive to do something besides play video games or watch sports on TV. There is no school you can go to, really.

Pro shops are also getting a lot more expensive due to insurance, environmental and safety laws, and such. When you get a $100/hr bill from the stealer for labor on your out of warranty car, that all does not go to the mechanics. It goes for all the real estate, the exotic electronic tools, the smoke machines and nitrogen tire fillers, health insurance for employees, advertising, etc. Even if much of that is not germane to what you need to have done, you pay. The independent shops track the dealers.

There are still in some places guys that build up cars in their garages, work for cash, have no insurance, pay little or no tax. They aren't going to restore a stock model A because it is not profitable as compared to building or working on muscle cars and street rods. There's a guy like that about ten miles from me. Fixes up cars, drives them to LA and flies back with cash. survivalist type, totally under the radar.

[Ross/Kzoo]

Originally Posted by hefty lefty

Pretty much. Despite unemployment, car labor is skyrocketing because few people want to do hot or cold dirty work any more. And restored high dollar CCCA classics and exotics and pro built street rods are bringing stupid money and that's where the talent goes.

And the only way to learn to do this is to do it....you need a place to work, tools, and time and the drive to do something besides play video games or watch sports on TV. There is no school you can go to, really.

Pro shops are also getting a lot more expensive due to insurance, environmental and safety laws, and such. When you get a $100/hr bill from the stealer for labor on your out of warranty car, that all does not go to the mechanics. It goes for all the real estate, the exotic electronic tools, the smoke machines and nitrogen tire fillers, health insurance for employees, advertising, etc. Even if much of that is not germane to what you need to have done, you pay. The independent shops track the dealers.

There are still in some places guys that build up cars in their garages, work for cash, have no insurance, pay little or no tax. They aren't going to restore a stock model A because it is not profitable as compared to building or working on muscle cars and street rods. There's a guy like that about ten miles from me. Fixes up cars, drives them to LA and flies back with cash. survivalist type, totally under the radar.

Good points! Also there seem to less and less people working on their own cars. 40-50 years ago most work done cars seemed to be done by the owners. Now the owners, not all but very many, farm out a majority if not all the work.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by bart78

With cars like model a's I think it's labor prices bringing prices up. And hot rods. It's amazing what people will pay for a rusty body. I actually think car prices will come down in the next for years. Without getting into political junk. I think next year is going to be pretty rough on a lot of people. And these cars are some of the first things to go when people need money. And allso there are a lot more of these out there than people think.

Originally Posted by bart78

Of course they have gone up in price the past fourty or fifty years ago. The prices on model a's reflrcts labor costs. You can add parts to that but most stuff is pretty affordable. Fifty years ago machine shop labor was not what it is now. If it would have cost back them what it does not to have someone work on your car. There would be no mod a's. They carry some value because they are old. They are not a rare car. And the fact that they make nice hot rods has made the price go up. In a few years the way things are going. But when you have 4,000 in a motor. And if you have someone put a good paint job on it. You are allready up there pretty good. And that's just two things. These cars will continue to go up. But my opinion it will be due to labor prices.

Bart, I am not sure I understand what you are saying. One place you say the prices will be coming down yet then you say they will continue to go up.

Your comments about Model-As being more expensive now due to "labor costs" is possibly true, ....but couldn't that be said about other things too? Is there an area in our society where labor costs are not higher? Wanna talk health care?

The thought about Model-As making good hot rods is interesting too. A convincing argument could be made about how many nice Model-A's have been butchered up by an overzealous hot rodder who got started, made a big mess, then put it on eBay with a description that the hard part is done.

One thing that IS different is that back 30-40 years ago, I would venture a guess that 98% of all Model-A owners did all their own work, in their own garage, with their own tools! For different reasons now, that number is much less. If you must for pay labor, I guess it drives the cost of the car up!

.

Originally Posted by Ross/Kzoo

Good points! Also there seem to less and less people working on their own cars. 40-50 years ago most work done cars seemed to be done by the owners. Now the owners, not all but very many, farm out a majority if not all the work.

Yep, the casualty rate on the recent B/R Tour proved that!!

[bart78]

What I mean is the price to restore a model a is just going to get more and more. But I think in the next year or so. You will be able to buy one less than you can now. Jobs are going to be lost next year. Full time goes to 30 hours. There will be a lot more companies with the Walmart mentality. All the old people with these cars stuffed away in a barn or hidden in the bushes are dieing off. The next few years are going to see a lot more of these showing up. That is why I think the price to buy one will go down.

[Richard Wilson]

I have built a Brookville body roadster so I will offer my opinion. I am not to sure about the reproduction bodies actually effecting overall prices that much in either direction. While all new sheet metal is nice to work on, they seem expensive for what you actually get. Several years ago I bought a half finished Model A project with a new Brookville body. At the time the body sold new for $4,000. I noticed in a recent 2013 catalog that the same body was up to $7,200. Then you have to spend another $5,000+ to complete JUST the body (gas tank, windshield, stanchions, top, seat, door handles, upholstery, etc.) It is very easy to spend $25,000, not including any labor, to assemble a complete Brookville bodied roadster. I have seen several running, driving, complete, original roadsters sell for $12,000 to $16,000 in recent years.

FYI. Dennis Carpenter bought all of Drake's 40 Coupe dies several years ago. You can buy a pretty nice, complete, already done 40 for what one of those bodies sells for. At the Spring Auto Fair I was told that they were mostly going to high-end rod shops.

[Rex_A_Lott]

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I think overall the quality of cars for sale is going up, and that prices just seem to be higher because of that.
I've been looking at our local Craigslist, anything within a 100 miles, for a coupe. What I want is a more or less complete car, an older restoration maybe...something I can drive and tinker with at the same time. A nicer car than my old jalopy trucks, but not something so nice that I have to worry about the grandkids climbing on it and scratching it up. I havent been able to find one, so far.
What I find is what I call really nice cars, with a price to go with it or a pile of rusty parts that would need a lots more time than I have right now.
Almost every car I see, 80 years later, is a "restoration"...whether done well or not.

[glenn in camino]

Rare body styles in show condition will always sell for top dollar.

[1931 flamingo]

glenn: Only if someone wants it. My feeling is that in a few years the A market is going to be saturated with cars for sale. JMO
Paul in CT

[Richard Wilson]

I am afraid Paul's point is exactly right. At your next club meeting or car show, look around at the owners and think about how many cars are going to come on the market in the next ten years.

[Roadster62]

I think a lot more A's are coming out due to the ecomomy and people getting older. Just last week a Roadster with a 1982 inspection sticker and a '29 wagon with a 1979 sticker came into the shop. Any Model A that is advertized in the $5,000 range around here is a future Hot Rod, that will produce a rolling chassis looking for a buyer with $1,000. Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

The real price of the Model A isn't rising, the value of the dollar is just falling.

[700rpm]

When people ask how much my car is worth, I try to give them an honest opinion based on my 50-plus years in the hobby and what I know about my particular car. Their replies are often, "Really? I would have thought a lot more!" I think that is the perception among the general population, probably due to TV. People who have been in the hobby are more aware of true values. This is why we often advise newbies here (and other places) to read a lot and do serious research, preferably with an experienced Model A'er, before plunking down their hard-earned cash for the "car they've always wanted". Even as an experienced Model A guy I have gotten over-enthusiastic sometimes, spent too much, and been skinned. But this is my hobby, and not my business; I do it for fun and I don't expect to ever make a profit from it, any more than I would expect to make a profit if I collected stamps (which I do) or played golf (which I don't).

In short, I think if somebody considers buying a Model A as an "investment" he is doing it for the wrong reason and will likely be disappointed.

[BarracudaBoy]

I sold my daily driver 1970 Barracuda for $6800.00 in 2003 and I thought I did pretty well. Barrett Jackson came on TV a year or so later and now they sell rust buckets with the quarters flapping in the wind for 10 thou. Crazy. Maybe I got an A just in time.

[Purdy Swoft]

Parts prices are on the increase, I figure model A prices will HAVE to follow suit.