New baby 1953 Merc

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Dobie Gillis

Well I do own a Merc but it's a '55, not a '53.

You do not understand OLD MAN FORGETFULNESS AND CONFUSION?

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

OK....there seems to be some conflict here on what I have in there now and the Type F that is coming any day now. Has anyone tried the new Type F in the Merc-o-matic with LONG TERM success? What is the consensus?

Is there a viable alternative to what is being used in there cars, other than what I have in my car now, and the Type F, I had planned on putting in???

This whole ball of confusion started with a simple question....."What IS the best ATF today, to use in the Merc-o-matic?" And to be honest, so far, there is no solid consistent (and time tested by folks on here) answer, at least that is what I'm hearing.

No matter what one posts on one of these forums, you will have others posting saying wrong and you are full of sh!at. This has been going on for years. That is why I try to document everything I post.

You need to review POST # 17, 20, 26, 30, 32, 37, 39, 144, 147, 148 and 154. Print them out for easier viewing. If it is not answered there, it will never be answered.

WHAT YOU HAVE IN THERE NOW IS CORRECT FOR TODAY'S BLENDING OF OUT-OF-DATE FLUIDS. It is the source (refiner-distributor) of the fluid that I am questioning.

- ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUALLY - LUBRICANTS ARE NOT -

If it were my car ... (fantasizing ) ... I would use only the QUALITY PRODUCTS previously mentioned or go with MERCON V.

It is confusing but once you have ciphered on it it makes sense (and I am none too bright).

Again, DEXRON is a GM PRODUCT TRADEMARK and MERCON is a FOMOCO PRODUCT TRADEMARK. They are not exactly the same fluids (since 1959). If one shakes the term DEXRON, it becomes easier to understand.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Sorry, I should have stated the following caveat: "This is for informational purposes only, this procedure should only be carried out by a trained mechanic with the proper tools."

There are complete threads somewhere on here and on y-blocksforever discussing how important the fluid pressure is.

That is another subject that will add to all of this confusion.

[bigd1101]

With over 3000 views so far, I'd say this discussion is wide open to questions. Anyone using a ATF in the 1953 Merc-o-matic, chime in with your experience. Now....what I've read outside of this site, is that if you had your tranny redone with newer innards, and such, the newer ATF will be good. If you have an older tranny with brass innards, the Type F is good.

I could be pissing up a rope here, but all I'm trying to figure out is.......what is best for the 53 Merc-o-matic. And lets say, you don't really know if your tranny was overhauled (like mine).......well then, it's a crap shoot. Put something in and pray you don't wad a good tranny in the process.

Don

[Merc Cruzer]

The owners manual and the transmission repair manuals, all say "Type A", is it still available? What formula they are using, I have no idea, but can be assured it doesn't contain whale oil.

I am draining the transmission and replacing it with Valvoline Type F. That just happens to be my choice.

I use Castrol 20/50, and add a bottle of ZDDP Plus, along with Lucas Oil Stabilizer. Many will tell you, this is a case of over kill, but since I built the engine myself, it was my choice.

What fluids you use in your car, is ultimately your choice. This forum has provided an abundance of information on that subject, but ultimately you will have to make the decision on your car yourself. Unfortunately, there is no single correct answer.

Owning a beautiful 53' Mercury is an education, that never ends.

[bigd1101]

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Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

The owners manual and the transmission repair manuals, all say "Type A", is it still available? What formula they are using, I have no idea, but can be assured it doesn't contain whale oil.

I am draining the transmission and replacing it with Valvoline Type F. That just happens to be my choice.

I use Castrol 20/50, and add a bottle of ZDDP Plus, along with Lucas Oil Stabilizer. Many will tell you, this is a case of over kill, but since I built the engine myself, it was my choice.

What fluids you use in your car, is ultimately your choice. This forum has provided you with an abundance of information on that subject, but ultimately you will have to make the decision on your car yourself. Unfortunately, there is no single correct answer.

Owning a beautiful 53' Mercury is an education, that never ends.

That's the hard part. There IS no single correct answer. You'd think there would be. Yes, this forum has indeed helped me many times over with questions and problems with some great results in the last few years, but I have to say, I've never experienced such a divide among members on such a simple subject as ATF. Maybe it's more complex with the AT's in these old cars. Like I said, all my old cars have been manual trannys.....same old stuff in those. No nuances, anecdotes or mysteries invoved.

[KULTULZ]

With over 3000 views so far, I'd say this discussion is wide open to questions.

Most likely, the 3000 count is those that want to know the facts also.

The owners manual and the transmission repair manuals, all say "Type A",

That data is from the early fifties. Tech has moved on. Would you want a brain surgeon cutting into you reading from a 1950's medical text?

That's the hard part. There IS no single correct answer.

Well, actually there is and it has been presented.

OK, I am out of here.

Yeah, I know oldmics. Don't let the door hit me in the a$$ ...

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

That's the hard part. There IS no single correct answer. You'd think there would be. Yes, this forum has indeed helped me many times over with questions and problems with some great results in the last few years, but I have to say, I've never experienced such a divide among members on such a simple subject as ATF. Maybe it's more complex with the AT's in these old cars. Like I said, all my old cars have been manual trannys.....same old stuff in those. No nuances, anecdotes or mysteries invoved.

The formula for ATF has changed dramatically over the years. Compatibility is definitely an issue. You can never go wrong with using the best quality fluids you can find. As long as the bottle doesn't say, "not for cars that use Type F" you should be fine.

[rotorwrench]

Type A used whale oil which had excellent high temperature characteristics and a little bit of light friction characteristic but not as much as Dexron B. Type F doesn't have friction modifiers.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Type A used whale oil which had excellent high temperature characteristics and a little bit of light friction characteristic but not as much as Dexron B. Type F dosen't have friction modifiers.

Learn something new every day:

DEXRON fluids

1967 – DEXRON(B)

1967 GM Dexron (B) ATF. GM License No. B-10001

1967 GM Dexron (B) ATF Lid. GM License No. B-10001

Released April 1, 1967. The original Dexron (B) fluid better retained the initial properties of the previous Type "A" Suffix "A" fluid (Several thousand cycles compared to 1000 cycles).[10] Dexron (B) was composed of a more stable, less reactive, hydrotreated Group 1 base oil plus additives for add non-foaming action qualities, high heat resistance, and anti-oxidation.[11] This was the first GM ATF to advertise 24,000 miles between changes.

This was the first GM ATF to require red dye as an aid in fluid leak detection. Prior to this fluid, GM ATF was the same color as engine oil. Aftermarket ATF was available with red dye.

GM Dexron (B) licensed products have a license number on the container that begins with the letter B. Example: B10001. This fluid is backward compatible with all Type "A" Suffix "A", and the Type "A" fluids produced from 1949 to 1966.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

That's the hard part. There IS no single correct answer. You'd think there would be. Yes, this forum has indeed helped me many times over with questions and problems with some great results in the last few years, but I have to say, I've never experienced such a divide among members on such a simple subject as ATF. Maybe it's more complex with the AT's in these old cars. Like I said, all my old cars have been manual trannys.....same old stuff in those. No nuances, anecdotes or mysteries invoved.

Interesting read: https://rxmechanic.com/type-a-transmission-fluid/

The article starts out by agreeing with you: "Maybe it's more complex with the AT's in these old cars."

[I"]Choosing a proper automatic transmission fluid may be a complicated process. This is because it is not always clear which oil you should pick for your transmission. Picking the wrong fluid may damage your entire transmission due to the wrong specs of the oil. Therefore, how to choose the right oil is a must-know question in order not to lose your transmission."

I should be receiving the gasket and filter/screen in the next new few days. I will drain and change the fluid, using the Valvoline Type F (post #131), followed by a series of test drives. I will keep you updated.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Type A used whale oil which had excellent high temperature characteristics and a little bit of light friction characteristic but not as much as Dexron B. Type F dosen't have friction modifiers.

Still with the whale oil? The main reason whale oil usage was dropped was breakdown at high temps. It was used as an anti-corrosive.

You are going to keep on until you have MOBY DICK hiding under deep ocean.

[KULTULZ]

Previously Posted By KULTULZ -

Again, DEXRON is a GM PRODUCT TRADEMARK and MERCON is a FOMOCO PRODUCT TRADEMARK. They are not exactly the same fluids (since 1959). If one shakes the term DEXRON, it becomes easier to understand.

My last b!tch and I am going to leave this one alone.

When working on a FORD, all references to DEXRON must be eliminated in discussion. FORD went to their own formulation in 1959 and never looked back. You have to use the FORD LUBE CHARTS to cipher what modern fluid is best for your particular early application.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Previously Posted By KULTULZ -


My last b!tch and I am going to leave this one alone.

When working on a FORD, all references to DEXRON must be eliminated in discussion. FORD went to their own formulation in 1959 and never looked back. You have to use the FORD LUBE CHARTS to cipher what modern fluid is best for your particular early application.

It is not bitching, if it helps to understand the information posted!

As to the "FORD LUBE CHARTS", I looked them up and they were of no use since they are all period and date correct. They all say Type A. What I would like to see is a Ford Factory service bulletin that would have been sent out to the dealers, addressing the issue of the replacement of Type A transmission fluid.

[rotorwrench]

Folks didn't always go to the Ford, GM, or Chrysler garages for ATF. In fact most went to the auto parts store and bought what ever was close. GM, Ford, and Chrysler all used the "hydramatic" transmission fluid under licence until finally being released on the aftermarket as type A. Many would use SAE 20 grade mineral oil rather than go to an Oldsmobile dealer to get their fluid so GM finally released the formula under contract for aftermarket use rather than have all the transmission problems associated with straight mineral oil. Formulas are still protected by contract agreements.

GM and other manufacturers NEVER wanted the general public to know how much sperm whale oil was used in all their ATF products and they still don't. This link is to an article about transmission fluid but it doesn't mention the formulas at all.
https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/s...smission-fluid

The hydramatic transmission was war tested in the M5 Stuart tanks and other derivatives of it. They were produced first at the GM Cadillac plant and had two Cadillac V8s with two hydramatic transmissions. They had to do mods to the transmissions and the fluids to get all that to work so this was when the first ATF was actually developed that would have a long lasting effect and have reliability.

This link is basic but it addresses what is available and what they were for.
https://www.transmasters.com/faqs/tr...on-fluid-types
Fords with the ravigneaux planetary gear set could take a pretty direct shift due to the metal bronze & steel plates so the type F was a follow on to make up for the loss of whale oil use after the moratorium on killing whales.

Whale oil wasn't just an additive. It made up a large percentage of the auto trans fluid due to it being a very good quality natural ester lubricant. It was some years later before technology could make a synthetic ester that would be in the category with sperm whale oil. Synthetics were developed for turbo jet engines in the years after the war and is still being modified to fit new requirements for all sorts of synthetic and blend type lubricants. Synthetic oils won't burn easily. They tend to vaporize before they burn and it takes a hell of a lot of heat to light the stuff off.

Good luck finding how much sperm whale oil was actually used in the old ATFs. This is like trying finding out the Colonel's secret recipe. They seldom even reveal any of the other additives. It's all proprietary and they have good reason to protect it.

One last thing I would like to add. I've done a lot of research over the years on this subject and I have found discrepancies between a lot of different sources so I've learned to take this information with a grain of salt. At some point a person has to give up and accept that it is what it is and the only way to find some information is to buy it and sign the agreements for it's use. This would likely keep a person from divulging the information under the agreements so it won't do me any good to go that far.

[bigd1101]

I called the old gentleman I bought the car off of and of course, he didn't know if the tranny was rebuilt, just "gone over". what ever that means, so I'm still flying blind on what to put in this car. The car has 80,000 miles on the odometer, so I'll assume those are original, and with the valve on 6 still showing zero compression (yeah, back to square one) I'll assume that the tranny is original and thus, will probably drain the Dex/merc stuff out and put the Type F, I have coming, in her. Consensus says here and other sites the brass innards in the old Merc-o-matic cannot handle the slick properties of the new stuff, so in goes the Type F from Valvoline. I just hope it's the original transmission innards in my car.

What should I look for if the car doesn't like the Type F and how quickly can it ruin my transmission, if that is the case? I know it will shift harder.....or start slipping? Dealing with the engine is enough for me at this point and I don't need another headache.

[rotorwrench]

The throttle valve is controlled by the bell crank mechanism, linkage, and adjustable rod down to the transmission throttle valve arm. The flathead versions are all about the same requiring lengthening or shortening of the TV control rod to affect the shift. These old transmissions are controlled by operating pressure of the fluid internally and that valve is the means of control. More modern Ford transmissions after 1961 use a vacuum modulator valve to control pressures.

I wouldn't adjust it unless the shift is too hard or too soft and that would be after checking the system pressure in accordance with the manual (the green manual for Mercomatic adjustment & repairs). The manual gives good instructions. The tooling is helpful but in most cases, this stuff can be set up without the factory tooling as long as a person understands how it all works. The original adjustment the car came with is a good baseline so take pictures or measurements before removing or adjusting any of this stuff.

Type F ATF may be fine with no adjustments. Any fluid is better than no or low fluid level but a person should know what it is and not mix other fluids in there. It has to have fluid to insure bearing as well as shift function. I don't think any type of ATF would break it but I will say that damage can be done that is evident of slipping clutches or mechanical noises that are not normal. If it has no pressure, it won't drive at all. This could be caused by a bad pump, pressure regulator, or a bad internal leak due to seal deterioration or a transfer tube not properly installed. There are a lot of things that can happen to a transmission to cause problems. A broken torque converter will keep it from moving as well. It is always best to investigate further if the transmission doesn't operate like it should. Continuing to run it with problems just makes the situation worse. If it shifts a bit harsh or too sloppy then is will likely need to be adjusted to change the TV pressure. Adjust in small increments and record all adjustments so they can be reversed if too far. Get the 1953 Mercomatic maintenance and adjustment manual to help you understand it or at least to help your local flathead friendly transmission man if it is more a task than you want to get involved with.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

I called the old gentleman I bought the car off of and of course, he didn't know if the tranny was rebuilt, just "gone over". what ever that means, so I'm still flying blind on what to put in this car. The car has 80,000 miles on the odometer, so I'll assume those are original, and with the valve on 6 still showing zero compression (yeah, back to square one) I'll assume that the tranny is original and thus, will probably drain the Dex/merc stuff out and put the Type F, I have coming, in her. Consensus says here and other sites the brass innards in the old Merc-o-matic cannot handle the slick properties of the new stuff, so in goes the Type F from Valvoline. I just hope it's the original transmission innards in my car.

What should I look for if the car doesn't like the Type F and how quickly can it ruin my transmission, if that is the case? I know it will shift harder.....or start slipping? Dealing with the engine is enough for me at this point and I don't need another headache.

You might call him and see if he has any ATF on the shelf in the garage. If he does, that is most likely, what is in the car.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

I called the old gentleman I bought the car off of and of course, he didn't know if the tranny was rebuilt, just "gone over". what ever that means, so I'm still flying blind on what to put in this car. The car has 80,000 miles on the odometer, so I'll assume those are original, and with the valve on 6 still showing zero compression (yeah, back to square one) I'll assume that the tranny is original and thus, will probably drain the Dex/merc stuff out and put the Type F, I have coming, in her. Consensus says here and other sites the brass innards in the old Merc-o-matic cannot handle the slick properties of the new stuff, so in goes the Type F from Valvoline. I just hope it's the original transmission innards in my car.

What should I look for if the car doesn't like the Type F and how quickly can it ruin my transmission, if that is the case? I know it will shift harder.....or start slipping? Dealing with the engine is enough for me at this point and I don't need another headache.

UPDATE

The new gasket and scree, came in today and they are the correct ones.

Pictures tomorrow, but today I removed both converter plugs and drained the converter. (two quarts came out - but the car has been sitting for about a week now, so much of it drained back in to the pan). FYI: you can pull just one plug and let it drain if you want, then turn the converter and remove the other plug, which is what I did. I then cleaned both plugs and reinstalled them, and torqued them to the book specks = 15-25 ft lbs. The reason the book says to pull both, is to do a fast fluid change, and that allows air to get into the top of the converter.

I also pulled the pan and cleaned it out, considerable sludge in the bottom. Cleaned up the filler tube and repainted it, along with the pan.

Since you are dealing with the one dead cylinder, you might want to wait and see how mine comes out before you do yours.

One last issue. I called Valvoline and checked out the manufacture dates on the fluid I had bought from O'Reilly's. As it turns out it was manufactured back in 2000 and 2001 and the shelf life for the fluid from Valvoline, is 5 years. Returned the fluid for a full refund ans bought new Valvoline Type F fluid (manufactured this year) from NAPA.

1 - clean drain pan
2- draining converter
3- draining converter
4- draining pan
6- pan off - valve body
7- converter drain plugs
8- screen off - valve body
9- screen top
10- screen bottom
11- sludge in bottom of ban
12- new screen gasket kit
13- new Valvoline Type F

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

UPDATE

One last issue. I called Valvoline and checked out the manufacture dates on the fluid I had bought from O'Reilly's. As it turns out it was manufactured back in 2000 and 2001 and the shelf life for the fluid from Valvoline, is 5 years.



Returned the fluid for a full refund ans bought new Type F fluid (manufactured this year) from NAPA.

Can you describe how to cipher their date code?

How dirty was the screen?

You bought TYPE-F from NAPA?