Brake comparison Bendix vs Lockheed

[john in illinois]

Our Model A club had a tour to a brake test lane and the owner let us test our brakes free. The machine had 1 vertical tube for each wheel. Liquid rose in the tubes to indicate brake force. He had it set for light cars. We drove on at approximately 5mph.

My Tudor has MT Lincoln Bendix brakes on the front and Ford Lockheed brakes on the rear. Both have the same size piston in the master cylinder. 6.00 -16 radial tires.

The results were: front brakes liquid to the top, rear brakes liquid 1/3 way up.
The brakes pulled very even side to side.

This set up works very good for me, but I was surprised that the Lockheeds were not more equal to the Bendix. Anyway we all had a good time and learned a lot about our brakes .

John

[Vintage Copper 47]

Originally Posted by john in illinois

Our Model A club had a tour to a brake test lane and the owner let us test our brakes free. The machine had 1 vertical tube for each wheel. Liquid rose in the tubes to indicate brake force. He had it set for light cars. We drove on at approximately 5mph.

My Tudor has MT Lincoln Bendix brakes on the front and Ford Lockheed brakes on the rear. Both have the same size piston in the master cylinder. 6.00 -16 radial tires.

The results were: front brakes liquid to the top, rear brakes liquid 1/3 way up.
The brakes pulled very even side to side.

This set up works very good for me, but I was surprised that the Lockheeds were not more equal to the Bendix. Anyway we all had a good time and learned a lot about our brakes .

John

Did they also tell you that the front brakes do more of the work?.. You can't go wrong with the Lincoln/Bendix style brakes

[Bored&Stroked]

You may not have seen much of a difference - even if you had Lincoln/Bendix brakes in the back as the backs typically do about 25% - 40% of the overall braking.

From a design perspective, for a given system specification, one usually does NOT want to exceed 40% in the rear.

[john in illinois]

Yes I know the front brakes do most of the work,that is why I have 2 cars with this system. I just thought it was neat to see kind of a pictorial of how the brakes were working. Actually it is a built in proportional system without a propotional valve.
I sure did not mean to say one brake type was better than another.
John

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by john in illinois

Yes I know the front brakes do most of the work,that is why I have 2 cars with this system. I just thought it was neat to see kind of a pictorial of how the brakes were working. Actually it is a built in proportional system without a propotional valve.
I sure did not mean to say one brake type was better than another.
John

Well, the BENDIX brakes are much more efficient than the Lockheeds. It is noteworthy that the two different types work so well together on a typical old Ford. You're not the first guy to run this combo. DD

[Mart]

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I am struggling to understand what you are describing. Is there a trade name for the equipment you are describing? I was thinking I could google it so I can understand it better.

How is it hooked to the car to indicate brake efficiency??

Not trying to give you a hard time, just struggling to understand.

Mart.

[JSeery]

No idea what the equipment is called, but the U.S. Military was using this setup in Okinawa in the 60s to check car brakes. You had to slowly drive up on it and then step on the brakes.

[V8COOPMAN]

Mart.....I believe the system he's talking about is similar to a system that the city of New Orleans used for a safety sticker when I was a wee kid in the '50s. It amounted to four separate flat plates laid out on the ground, two on each side, one behind the other. Dad would drive his big ol' Buick down the lane at a slow speed until all four wheels were on their own separate plate, at which time the tech would indicate "SLAM THE BRAKES ON". Each of the four pads moved SLIGHTLY, apparently pushing on some type of hydraulic master cylinder, which would push hydraulic fluid upward into a sight tube, like the old coffee urn. It easily and visually showed the actual degree of braking that each wheel produced. Obviously, each of the four sight tubes employed a check valve to retain the results in the vertical sight tubes until reset. Pretty slick, actually! DD

[A bones]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Mart.....I believe the system he's talking about is similar to a system that the city of New Orleans used for a safety sticker when I was a wee kid in the '50s.
It easily and visually showed the actual degree of braking that each wheel produced. Obviously, each of the four sight tubes employed a check valve to retain the results in the vertical sight tubes until reset. Pretty slick, actually! DD

Here in DE they use a plate system as well ( I think Jersey also ). Not sure of the type of sensor mechanism. BUT, I Know well that they detect problems that won't show up with road tests and pulling wheels and drums (ala PA ).

The system however does not show how much usage remains ( like a visual check ). Awareness is the operator/owners responsibility.

[Mart]

Thanks guys that tells me a lot.

Here in the UK for the annual test they use a mini rolling road for one axle, gives good accurate results. You do one end first then the other. Most old vehicles of the age we are interested in are exempt from the annual test, so it is the responsibility of the owner to make sure it is kept in a roadworthy condition.

Mart.

[Heard]

We had the same system here in Florida back in the day for our annual inspection stickers. The annual inspection was dreaded because it usually took a few hours to get through and if you failed, you had to come back again.

Amazingly, the entire inspection program was abandoned when the governor of Florida subjected himself to this ridiculous routine.

[deuce_roadster]

Mart- The Lockeed brakes have fixed lower pivot points and the Bendix do not. This allows the Bendix brakes to "self energize" by rocking slightly and putting more brake shoe pressure on the drums. That is why the Bendix style brakes have uneven length friction surfaces on the shoes, going forward, the rear shoe does more of the work so it has the longer lining.

I see Mart was asking about the equipment, not the brakes themselves.

[Jack E/NJ]

Flathead Ted's supposed to be looking into reviving his efforts to offer a Lockheed floater kit if there was enough interest. I'm still interested. Anybody else? Jack E/NJ

[skidmarks]

Delaware still has the state run inspection lane. You drive onto a platform in the lane and step on the brakes and it measures each wheel. The old.machines had tubes with fluid and a scale that looked like a thermometer. Its all computer readouts now.

How accurate i guess depends on the calibration of both the machine and the operator

[glennpm]

This is a markup of an article with notes I added to the enclosed picture that explains the brake shoe action.

Glenn

[Andy]

Delete

[kiwitony]

Very interesting to hear what various states require for safety standards. In New Zealand we have quiet a tough WOF [warrant of fitness] system done 6 monthly. The official testing stations have the rolling road for brakes and it can be a challenge to get an old car to pass on the brakes. Most garages d o WOF's as well and old car owners soon get a pet warrant man for their checks. I have followed my particular guy for over 30 years as he changed jobs around the area. sadly he has now retired and I need to find someone new man. Not saying he was lax but practical when it comes to the mileage these cars do in a year. We have adopted yearly checks for cars after year 2000 but it should be on old cars as well. I know several cars that come out of the shed and go to the testing station and back to the shed. Sorry if this is a Hijack. Tony

[john in illinois]

The place that invited us to test our cars is a large truck and bus inspection shop. In Illinois trucks must be inspected every year, not cars. We went on Sat when they were normally closed.

As mentioned it is two parallel ramps with 2 rear sections, a flat pace with the indicator equipment, and 2 front sections. You drive on at 5mph and put on brakes when centered over the middle. The force of brakes on each wheel is seen in the tubes liquid height. He set the machine for light cars.

John

[Mart]

Thanks John (and others) I've never encountered such a device, so it was hard for me to imagine it. I've seen a few images now so have a good understanding. Always learning.

Mart.

[Alaska Jim]

I wonder how well this would work for setting up a brake system that has an adjustable proportioning valve? My '30 coupe with the y-block has a 57 ford 9" rear and 11x2 shoes, the front I believe is 67 mustang master cyl. and MT front brakes, I think the are also 11x2, can't remember for sure. It has an adjustable proportioning valve. Maybe this type of test equipment could be used to cut down the amount of trial and error time in order to get it adjusted correctly as to the amount of front to rear preesure needed before the brakes actually lock up. It is just a thought.

[FlatheadTed]

This is typical of what the Govt puts you through here,Ted

[FlatheadTed]

cancel

[rich b]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

This is typical of what the Govt puts you through here,Ted

All kinda dials and numbers on that panel; but what do they mean?

[Brian]

I took my model T into one of those VTNZ testing stations as in Ted's post. After explaining to them it had a transmission brake they were somewhat unsure how to check. Finally, they sat some sort of 'G meter' on the floor, had me drive it as fast as I could in the space provided, and on their command to apply brakes. Dunno what the G meter said, but it passed!
So, then I told them I'd bring my new Ford in for a Warrant of Fitness check [1935 Ford]. When I set up the brakes on that thing, I use a gravel road and adjust each brake until all skid marks are the same length. They put it on the brake machine as in Ted's pix. Result - fail!! If I applied the brakes. both gauges would go up the same amount, indicating even braking each side. They insisted however, that rather than 'jumping' on the pedal as I do, to just gently apply pressure to the pedal, and each gauge would then tell a different story. I couldn't explain there is no/very little servo effect with these brakes, they didn't wanna know. I finally got my WoF after a coupla rechecks, but really, the guys that work there are a bunch of dickheads. Why could they not have used the same testing method as they used on the T?They do not understand the indiosynchroses of this old iron. So, as KiwiTony explained, most of us guys now take out old vehicles to our 'favourite' issuing person, someone who can use common sense judgement.

[FlatheadTed]

The dials measure two wheels at a time and the bios'

[FlatheadTed]

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I have done a run of 60, a bit more testing yet , & Patents

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Flathead Ted's supposed to be looking into reviving his efforts to offer a Lockheed floater kit if there was enough interest. I'm still interested. Anybody else? Jack E/NJ

[JSeery]

Would be interesting to see what all of this testing is worth in real life safety. States like I live in do not have any testing requirements and I've never hear or seen any increase in accident rates. Most accidents are related to drivers not vehicle failures.

[flatford8]

“Most accidents are related to drivers not vehicle failures.“ Exactly! If your not watching the road,what makes the difference how good or bad the brakes work?.... Mark

[Kahuna]

On my 32 Tudor sedan, I have the Bendix (12") brakes in front & Ford 9" (11" X 2") brakes in the rear, much like Alaska Jim. I use a single master cylinder with NO proportioning valve. Brakes are great.
All I need to do now, is to make the Bendix brakes self adjusting like the rears are.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

On my 32 Tudor sedan, I have the Bendix (12") brakes in front & Ford 9" (11" X 2") brakes in the rear, much like Alaska Jim. I use a single master cylinder with NO proportioning valve. Brakes are great.
All I need to do now, is to make the Bendix brakes self adjusting like the rears are.

Not sure which brakes you are using on the front, but the f1/f100 backing plates are easy to install the later hardware on for the self adjusting.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by A bones

Here in DE they use a plate system as well ( I think Jersey also ). Not sure of the type of sensor mechanism. BUT, I Know well that they detect problems that won't show up with road tests and pulling wheels and drums (ala PA ).

The system however does not show how much usage remains ( like a visual check ). Awareness is the operator/owners responsibility.

Yes, NJ used this system up until the the late 90's I believe.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

I have done a run of 60, a bit more testing yet , & Patents

I'm in too.

[rich b]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

On my 32 Tudor sedan, I have the Bendix (12") brakes in front & Ford 9" (11" X 2") brakes in the rear, much like Alaska Jim. I use a single master cylinder with NO proportioning valve. Brakes are great.
All I need to do now, is to make the Bendix brakes self adjusting like the rears are.

Depending on the type shoe used on your 12" brakes, the kits in the picture may fit. I set the pieces onto a manual plate to give you an idea on how they lay out. Probably the same as the Ford 11" rear self-adjusters on your rear brakes. The purple spring does not come in the kit; but is included in the regular hardware kit, H7139. You may also want to add a second access slot on the left backing plate.

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Would be interesting to see what all of this testing is worth in real life safety. States like I live in do not have any testing requirements and I've never hear or seen any increase in accident rates. Most accidents are related to drivers not vehicle failures.

IMHO testing is of no value today. The closest thing to perpetual motion is a government program. In the last nearly 40+ years of driving I have never failed the Texas inspection test with cars up to 13 years old. One would think either the test is irrelevant or they aren't testing the right thing after driving 1,000,000+ miles on 12+ cars and never failing. Now they do an "emissions" test where I live in the Houston area. It involves checking whether the check engine light is on. What a waste of time. What else is new with government programs?