The Ford Barn

kiwitony · 03-11-2014, 02:35 AM

Hi guys I've been working on a 51 F1 for a mate. It's a recent import from the states and a neat old truck. Motor runs sweet now with a bit of work, it's tired with only 30psi compression but can be hardly heard at idle. He [the owner] will only do a few hundred miles a year, so I figure it will last a long time. My issue is with it graunching when going into first and reverse gear. I've tried putting into second or top which is fine and then engaging first but it still grates. I've adjusted the free play several times and it makes no difference. My 18 speed roadranger has a clutch brake for this very reason but these old girls shouldn't need that. I'm leaning towards oil on the disc causing drag but I'm open to all suggestions. Thanks in advance Tony.

scooder · 03-11-2014, 03:34 AM

With that kind of compression I'd imagine it's a pretty heavy breather, and this breath can coat everything behind the breather with oil. So could well be an oily clutch.
My opinion that engine will need to come out and be gone through. It does show how dependable these old Ford V8's are, that they can still start and be run so damn worn. I have the guts of an 8BA And the top ring grove has worn so much that at some points the broken top ring is two high, as in a bit of a ring with another bit of ring on top of it, in one ring grove! Apparently it smoked a bit! I would think it would be way down on power, and sparking plugs will have limited life.
His choice but for dependability, I'd sat it needs seeing to.
Martin.

mtflat · 03-11-2014, 09:01 AM

The condition sounds normal to me. My experience is limited to 10 years of daily driving in my 48 F1 with the HD 3 spd. You just have to adjust your driving habits. Come to a stop, wait, sometimes cycle into second before trying first. Modern trans have spoiled us and we try to shift faster than the old iron can stop spinning. At least this is what I've found - your mileage may vary.

alan · 03-11-2014, 11:01 AM

check the weight of oil in the trans--heavier 95/140 wt seems to stop the gears from turning better when trying to shift-also make sure the clutch is completly dis-engaging, should have 1 1/2 to 2" of freeplay at top of pedal

rotorwrench · 03-11-2014, 01:21 PM

Low gear is un-synchronized so you have to get the countershaft to slow down a fair amount before attempting to engage it from higher gears. You can shift to neutral for a bit with the clutch disengaged and then try a jog into low gear. That's about as good as it gets. Just be glad it doesn't have the old 4-speed. You have to double clutch those in every gear.

ford3 · 03-11-2014, 01:57 PM

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the least amount of clutch free play the better chance of the pressure plate giving the clutch plate more distance between the fly wheel and the pressure plate, less free play means the throw out bearing depresses the fingers deeper on the pressure plate giving more room, try as less free play you can get away with with out the throw out bearing touching the pressure plate release fingers and turning, i dont think oil on the clutch will cause the trans to grind going in gear, slip and chatter maybe

scooder · 03-11-2014, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford3

the least amount of clutch free play the better chance of the pressure plate giving the clutch plate more distance between the fly wheel and the pressure plate, less free play means the throw out bearing depresses the fingers deeper on the pressure plate giving more room, try as less free play you can get away with with out the throw out bearing touching the pressure plate release fingers and turning, i dont think oil on the clutch will cause the trans to grind going in gear, slip and chatter maybe

Oil on the clutch can make it drag, and this can make it harder to get into the non sychro 1st and last.
If this uses the long style clutch, you need 1 1/2" - 2" free play at the pedal. Without this free play as the revs go up the clutch fingers will come into contact with the throw out bearing and as they go higher the clutch will slip, as the centrifugal weights wont be able to do the job there ment to do. Dont know about the Borg and Beck type, never played with one on a Flathead.
Martin.

ford3 · 03-11-2014, 09:20 PM

oil on the clutch will make the trans grind? why is that, if the clutch is not touching the fly wheel nothing will be turning to cause trans to grind going into gear

49r · 03-12-2014, 01:54 AM

I'm assuming you're meaning this condition occurs when you've stopped? I have to wait when selecting first or reverse in my F1 when standing, or as you mention, select 2nd beforehand. Even so, it's only momentary.

scooder · 03-12-2014, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford3

oil on the clutch will make the trans grind? why is that, if the clutch is not touching the fly wheel nothing will be turning to cause trans to grind going into gear

Because it gets a sticky mess in there, and can make the clutch drag. Trust me, it happens, and I have experience of it happening.
I'm not saying it is absolutely this that is the problem, I'm saying it could be an issue.
Martin.

JWL · 03-12-2014, 05:31 AM

If the pilot bearing is of the "roller bearing" design it can become rusty and cause the problem described. No amount of clutch adjustment will fix it.

FortyNiner · 03-12-2014, 07:14 AM

Tony

It isn't horribly difficult to remove the trannys on these beauties. I would go ahead and replace the clutch and readjust all the mechanisms.

Good luck.

DW

kiwitony · 03-12-2014, 01:15 PM

Thanks for the input guys, I've had the gearbox in and out twice to replace the thrust bearing. First one was Chinese made junk. I changed the oil in the box at that time with 80/140 gear oil. I have no problems getting into gear by very slowly moving the gearlever but I must admit that at a stop sign or lights you tend to forget and try to engage in a hurry. As I mention in my post I've adjusted the freeplay until there was none and it made little difference. Maybe some banana skins in the box to slow it up a bit. Cheers Tony.

scooder · 03-12-2014, 03:28 PM

Tony, incase you missed it, see my early post re the long style clutch and pedal freeplay, Ford specs are 1 1/2"- 2" at the pedal. If you don't have this, your clutch release bearing and clutch plate will wearout prematurely. This is for long style clutch.

kiwitony · 03-13-2014, 01:43 PM

Thanks scooder I adjusted it back to spec, I was just trying everything to stop the grating.

03-11-2014, 02:35 AM	#1
kiwitony Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Whangaparaoa New Zealand Posts: 263	F 1 clutch Hi guys I've been working on a 51 F1 for a mate. It's a recent import from the states and a neat old truck. Motor runs sweet now with a bit of work, it's tired with only 30psi compression but can be hardly heard at idle. He [the owner] will only do a few hundred miles a year, so I figure it will last a long time. My issue is with it graunching when going into first and reverse gear. I've tried putting into second or top which is fine and then engaging first but it still grates. I've adjusted the free play several times and it makes no difference. My 18 speed roadranger has a clutch brake for this very reason but these old girls shouldn't need that. I'm leaning towards oil on the disc causing drag but I'm open to all suggestions. Thanks in advance Tony.

03-11-2014, 03:34 AM	#2
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: F 1 clutch With that kind of compression I'd imagine it's a pretty heavy breather, and this breath can coat everything behind the breather with oil. So could well be an oily clutch. My opinion that engine will need to come out and be gone through. It does show how dependable these old Ford V8's are, that they can still start and be run so damn worn. I have the guts of an 8BA And the top ring grove has worn so much that at some points the broken top ring is two high, as in a bit of a ring with another bit of ring on top of it, in one ring grove! Apparently it smoked a bit! I would think it would be way down on power, and sparking plugs will have limited life. His choice but for dependability, I'd sat it needs seeing to. Martin.

03-11-2014, 09:01 AM	#3
mtflat Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kalispell Montana Posts: 344	Re: F 1 clutch The condition sounds normal to me. My experience is limited to 10 years of daily driving in my 48 F1 with the HD 3 spd. You just have to adjust your driving habits. Come to a stop, wait, sometimes cycle into second before trying first. Modern trans have spoiled us and we try to shift faster than the old iron can stop spinning. At least this is what I've found - your mileage may vary. Last edited by mtflat; 03-11-2014 at 09:14 AM.

03-11-2014, 11:01 AM	#4
alan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: UPSTATESC Posts: 669	Re: F 1 clutch check the weight of oil in the trans--heavier 95/140 wt seems to stop the gears from turning better when trying to shift-also make sure the clutch is completly dis-engaging, should have 1 1/2 to 2" of freeplay at top of pedal

03-11-2014, 01:21 PM	#5
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,432	Re: F 1 clutch Low gear is un-synchronized so you have to get the countershaft to slow down a fair amount before attempting to engage it from higher gears. You can shift to neutral for a bit with the clutch disengaged and then try a jog into low gear. That's about as good as it gets. Just be glad it doesn't have the old 4-speed. You have to double clutch those in every gear.

03-11-2014, 01:57 PM	#6
ford3 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: oroville calif. Posts: 1,453	Re: F 1 clutch Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) the least amount of clutch free play the better chance of the pressure plate giving the clutch plate more distance between the fly wheel and the pressure plate, less free play means the throw out bearing depresses the fingers deeper on the pressure plate giving more room, try as less free play you can get away with with out the throw out bearing touching the pressure plate release fingers and turning, i dont think oil on the clutch will cause the trans to grind going in gear, slip and chatter maybe

03-11-2014, 09:20 PM	#8
ford3 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: oroville calif. Posts: 1,453	Re: F 1 clutch oil on the clutch will make the trans grind? why is that, if the clutch is not touching the fly wheel nothing will be turning to cause trans to grind going into gear

03-12-2014, 01:54 AM	#9
49r Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wellington New Zealand Posts: 308	Re: F 1 clutch I'm assuming you're meaning this condition occurs when you've stopped? I have to wait when selecting first or reverse in my F1 when standing, or as you mention, select 2nd beforehand. Even so, it's only momentary.

03-12-2014, 05:31 AM	#11
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: F 1 clutch If the pilot bearing is of the "roller bearing" design it can become rusty and cause the problem described. No amount of clutch adjustment will fix it.

03-12-2014, 07:14 AM	#12
FortyNiner Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: u-rah-rah-Wisconsin Posts: 1,136	Re: F 1 clutch Tony It isn't horribly difficult to remove the trannys on these beauties. I would go ahead and replace the clutch and readjust all the mechanisms. Good luck. DW

03-12-2014, 01:15 PM	#13
kiwitony Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Whangaparaoa New Zealand Posts: 263	Re: F 1 clutch Thanks for the input guys, I've had the gearbox in and out twice to replace the thrust bearing. First one was Chinese made junk. I changed the oil in the box at that time with 80/140 gear oil. I have no problems getting into gear by very slowly moving the gearlever but I must admit that at a stop sign or lights you tend to forget and try to engage in a hurry. As I mention in my post I've adjusted the freeplay until there was none and it made little difference. Maybe some banana skins in the box to slow it up a bit. Cheers Tony.

03-12-2014, 03:28 PM	#14
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: F 1 clutch Tony, incase you missed it, see my early post re the long style clutch and pedal freeplay, Ford specs are 1 1/2"- 2" at the pedal. If you don't have this, your clutch release bearing and clutch plate will wearout prematurely. This is for long style clutch.

03-13-2014, 01:43 PM	#15
kiwitony Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Whangaparaoa New Zealand Posts: 263	Re: F 1 clutch Thanks scooder I adjusted it back to spec, I was just trying everything to stop the grating.