Lincoln Y block

[Tommy Caruso]

Will the Lincoln Y Block bolt in a 56 ford pickup that had a 292

[packrat5]

Without going into all of the boring details, which will be posted about over, and over, the answer in a nutshell is no.

[Oldmics]

Nope

Oldmics

[packrat5]

I want to digress a bit. It could be done, but it would not exactly be a bolt in. If you could find a 800 series truck, the front motor mount plate could be used with a 57-60 front cross member, the bell housing and stick stuff maybe could be used with the "granny tranny" An FE stick setup could be adapted with some machine shop work. (good luck with that) Passenger cars never had a stick, but the automatic was the old GM Hydromatic in earlier versions, and the Cruiso was used in later ones. If you really want to lose the y-block,(?) conversion kits are available for almost any other type of engine conversion. When you consider the cost, weight, and parts availability, and other important parameters, the y-block is a way better engine choice. Only my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

[40 Deluxe]

At least the Lincoln would confuse the know-it-alls at a car show!

[dmsfrr]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

At least the Lincoln would confuse the know-it-alls at a car show!

I like the way you think.

[Pilot31135]

You might get away with the lincoln y block and a Berendsens transmission adapter and maybe a T-5 trans out of a mustang. That would really confuse, and or tick off a purist.
I like the way my 317 sounds!����

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Tommy Caruso

Will the Lincoln Y Block bolt in a 56 ford pickup that had a 292

Originally Posted by Oldmics

Nope

Oldmics

Y- Not...

(The 1957 MERC 368 had a manual trans BTW.)

[Oldmics]

Re: Lincoln Y block
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Caruso

Will the Lincoln Y Block bolt in a 56 ford pickup that had a 292

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldmics

Nope

Oldmics

Y- Not...

(The 1957 MERC 368 had a manual trans BTW.)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let me revisit my comment about not fitting.


ANYTHING can be made to fit with either a torch or a plasma cutter and a welder and someone with the skill to make it happen !


That being said - the Lincoln Y Block will fit into the cavity of the pickup.


Now the reason its not a bolt in is because the Lincoln engine motor mount attachment location and angles are different than the Ford Y Block engine.


This necessatates a different style of frame mount for the motor mounts to attach to.


If a Lincoln Y Block donor vehicle could be found and the engine frame mounts removed from the donor car and welded to the truck frame , then yes a Lincoln engine would fit.


Of course one would still have to deal with all of the other driveline issues that would now come into being.


Now KULTULZ - tell me about this
discovery on the Merc 368 and a manual transmission.


Only 100 of those stick bell housings were produced for the M 335 package for the 368 engine in Mercurys.


Those stick bell housings were made by Crager who also sold them to the public.


The Merc bells were not cast as Cragers so that the M 335 would be homologated for the 57 race season.


The Crager aftermarket bells were cast with the Crager namesake on the housing.


Oldmics

[KULTULZ]

Let me try it this way...

The LYB PASS CAR and HT engine mounting is different isn't it, just as the PASS CAR and TRUCK FYB? How is the 368 mounted in your 57 MERC, like was done with (?) as the 58 LINC/BIRD 430?

There are no side support pads on the 368 block?

I have a '57 MERC SHOP MANUAL somewhere, just too lazy to dig it out.

I understand about the specialty bell but to say there was not one available is misleading (referring to a separate post by another member within the same thread).

(Besides, you need your cage rattled as you haven't been around for awhile... )

[Oldmics]

K T


You are a cage rattler and its all good fun.


I was away on a warm Island for February with not much communication.


The Merc 368 and the Merc/Linc 430 are different critters.


Now,I"ll be the first to admit I know nuttin bout the 430 except to look up an image of one on Google.


The 368 engine do have side mounts. They are on a 45 * angle from the ground.
Perfectly vertical side engine mounts that attach to the motor mount which attachs to the steel frame mount.


The image of the 430 shows the side of the block as having the mounts on the side of the block on an angle and not vertical as a 368 would use.


Therefore two different frame mounts/motor mounts,etc.


The only other standard shift bell availiable that would fit a 368 was for the trucks.I"m not sure if a truck bell could be used for the T85 trans interface.
Those standard truck bells were behind 317 engines.


The truck head gears were longer as I understand.


Never heard/saw/experienced a 368 with a standard shift except for the M 335s.


Oldmics

[KULTULZ]

OK...

That was what I was trying to get at, the 368 PASS CAR has side mount provisions. The early MEL 383-410-430 used a front/rear mount system.

So in essence, MERC did not have to change the 1957 frame mounts for the 368 installation as compared to the 312 installation. So retrofit into say a 56 FORD should not be that difficult, right?

[Oldmics]

No,Merc DID have to change the frame mounts.


The Ford Y Block has the engine mount boss"s on an angle.


The 368 has vertical engine boss"s.


There"s no pulling a 312 and directly bolting in the 368 to the 312 style frame mounts.


The 368 has to have different frame mounts.


Oldmics

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

OK...

So in essence, MERC did not have to change the 1957 frame mounts for the 368 installation as compared to the 312 installation. So retrofit into say a 56 FORD should not be that difficult, right?

Originally Posted by Oldmics

No,Merc DID have to change the frame mounts.

The Ford Y Block has the engine mount boss"s on an angle.

The 368 has vertical engine boss"s.

There"s no pulling a 312 and directly bolting in the 368 to the 312 style frame mounts.

The 368 has to have different frame mounts.

Oldmics

What I was getting at is that the 57 MER 368 was not mounted as the 58 LINC 430. The 368 uses side mounts and can be changed over but with some effort.

I read on another forum where you had pulled the engine out of your MERC. By any chance did you take any frame shots?

Did you ever hear of the S-CODE 56 FORD?

[Oldmics]

KT


When I found the Merc the 368 engine was already removed.


I didnt take any pics at that time BUT I could get a shot of the mounts from the underside today if you like.


Unfortunatly there seems to be an issue with posting pictures on the site at the moment.


As far as the 1956 "S" machine - I am aware of the story and it stems from this auction link below


https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0114-17...toria-hardtop/


I sold this guy the dual quad air cleaner before it went to auction.


I"m not sure if its the real deal or not BUT it makes for a nice story - sorta like the story of the 1957 Fords that got the Police Interceptor 352 engine a year before it was supposed to be availiable.


The factorys did a lot of unusual things back in the day. Whos to say whats right or wrong . I only believe in documentation of the machines.


Without the documented proof - its just a good story.


Oldmics

[scicala]

That's a pretty shakey story about the "S" code '56. To begin with, the Ford Pilot Plant at that time (and still is) is located in Allen Park, Mich (boarders Dearborn), and not in Somerville, Mass. I won't argue that the "S" in the VIN isn't for the Pilot Plant, I just disagree with where they said it was.
Also, no way would it have the NASCAR inspired 2 X 4 barrel carb set up.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

The car is powered by a very rare S-code 312/225 HP V-8 engine distinguished by dual Holley 4-barrel carburetion topped by a special NASCAR-inspired air cleaner. Built at Ford’s pilot plant in Somerville, Massachusetts (indicated by the third digit in the VIN), it is one of only seven S-code cars built in 1956 and is believed to have been a test or pilot car.

Here is what happened-

Some years ago, a guy posted for show or sale possibly (including photo), a 56 FORD sporting a 368 4V install. The cars Patent Plate Engine Code was S and not cataloged. So most jumped on the band wagon (including myself) that it was a Police install.

Come to find out many years later it was all a misnomer. The S Car was assembled in MA and received the 312 4V.

In TSB 366 dated 8/6/56 there is a paragraph about the "S" code cars.

Para D*2

312 Cubic inch eight cylinder engines - 1956 Fairlane, Customline, and Mainline Models

We have been advised that approximately sixty-five 312 cubic inch engines with automatic transmissions and four hundred and fifty-five 312 cubic inch engines with standard transmissions have been used in 1956 Fairlane, Customline, and Mainline models in place of the 292 cubic inch engine with the four barrel carburetor.

Since these engines were shipped with the regular passenger car decals on the rocker covers it will not be possible to identify them by this means.

The identification of such 1956 units with these engines in this case is made by the letter "S" in the vehicle serial number and a daub of yellow heat resisting paint about two inches square on the forward portion of the engine.

SOURCE- http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic46286.aspx

So the real story is people putting big bucks into a car restoring it and claiming it is (or was) something special when it really isn't.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Oldmics

KT

When I found the Merc the 368 engine was already removed.

I didnt take any pics at that time BUT I could get a shot of the mounts from the underside today if you like.

Oldmics

If you can take them at your convenience it would be greatly appreciated as it is still cold (although I imagine it is garaged). No big hurry.

I am just interested in design changes between the 312 and 368 install.

OH!

While I am thinking about it...

The 361 FE and 410 MEL had an early intro date as the 58 EDSEL was released early.

The 361 was a 1958 FORD Police Option.

Most Police was not cataloged in the MPC but in separate cataloging. So who knows what FORD might have done?

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

That's a pretty shakey story about the "S" code '56.

To begin with, the Ford Pilot Plant at that time (and still is) is located in Allen Park, Mich (boarders Dearborn), and not in Somerville, Mass. I won't argue that the "S" in the VIN isn't for the Pilot Plant, I just disagree with where they said it was.

Also, no way would it have the NASCAR inspired 2 X 4 barrel carb set up.

Sal

Hey Sal...

I imagine the 8V was actually the 56 312 kit and was missing the original air cleaner assy.

Here is some info on Wixom- https://macsmotorcitygarage.com/the-...ed-auto-plant/

ALSO-

The Somerville Assembly was a Ford Motor Company factory in Somerville, Massachusetts which opened in 1926 as a replacement to the Cambridge Assembly.[1] Following the failure of the Edsel, the plant, which had been one of the region’s largest employers, closed its doors in 1958. At that time it was the Edsel division's only Edsel-only assembly line as all other Edsel plants were shared with Mercury or Ford. Somerville built only the larger Corsair and Citation big series Edsels which shared chassis with Mercury.

SOURCE- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerville_Assembly

See what you think.

[KULTULZ]

Here are some photos of the LYB skirts showing the engine support pads-

[scicala]

Just saying Somerville isn't the Pilot Plant. Pilot Plant was for pre-production test builds and not available for public purchase. The 2x4 set up wasn't released until later in the '56 model year through dealers.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

Just saying Somerville isn't the Pilot Plant. Pilot Plant was for pre-production test builds and not available for public purchase. The 2x4 set up wasn't released until later in the '56 model year through dealers.

Sal

Sal,

Did you read all of the referring URL's I posted?

[scicala]

This is the URL you posted that shows the pilot plant I was referring to. Now used to help develop assembly lines for new products. They also used to build Lincolns and Edsels there in the 50's.
I worked at Ford in powertrain engineering for about 24 years, and went there many times to look at vehicles, or go to meetings. It's the only Pilot Plant I was ever aware of at Ford.


Sal


https://macsmotorcitygarage.com/the-...ed-auto-plant/

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

This is the URL you posted that shows the pilot plant I was referring to. Now used to help develop assembly lines for new products. They also used to build Lincolns and Edsels there in the 50's.

I worked at Ford in powertrain engineering for about 24 years, and went there many times to look at vehicles, or go to meetings. It's the only Pilot Plant I was ever aware of at Ford.

Sal

https://macsmotorcitygarage.com/the-...ed-auto-plant/

OK, not arguing here. Just trying to figure out something.

When the Continental Division was folded after the 1957 model year, the plant became home base for the new Edsel brand. Here, a 1958 Edsel convertible duplicates the Continental Mark II’s pose. But then Edsel soon went kaput, and the building eventually was converted into a pilot plant.

Proper name: Ford New Models Production Development Center.

Somerville (MA) (prior Pilot Pant) was closed just prior to this (end of FORD dedicated EDSEL plant assy).

So what I am reading is that the Pilot Plant (or designation) was moved from MA to Dearborn with the MA plant closing.

[KULTULZ]

The below quoted post from thread- http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic137290.aspx

Lou (6/2/2018)

Sommerville , was in Massachusetts just outside Boston, they stopped assembling Ford cars in March 1957 so the plant could be retooled for Edsel production.

It was never a "pilot" plant, after the plant closed for good in 1959, the letter "S" was assigned in 1964 to mean pilot plant but never used as all pilot work was done by Dearborn Steel Tubing and carried a Dearborn. Mich code.

I have seen 3 56 Fords with the "S" engine code (2 sedans and a 1 two door Victoria) all were built at Long Beach, CA and all had factory installed Lincoln 368 engines, the engine was listed as a police option.

As far as 7 being build I would ask where he got his information.

If this truly is a 368 factory powered 56 Victoria it could be a very valuable car when restored.

In TSB 366 dated 8/6/56 there is a paragraph about the "S" code cars.

Para D*2

312 Cubic inch eight cylinder engines - 1956 Fairlane, Customline, and Mainline Models

We have been advised that approximately sixty-five 312 cubic inch engines with automatic transmissions and four hundred and fifty-five 312 cubic inch engines with standard transmissions have been used in 1956 Fairlane, Customline, and Mainline models in place of the 292 cubic inch engine with the four barrel carburetor.

Since these engines were shipped with the regular passenger car decals on the rocker covers it will not be possible to identify them by this means.

The identification of such 1956 units with these engines in this case is made by the letter "S" in the vehicle serial number and a daub of yellow heat resisting paint about two inches square on the forward portion of the engine.

Below info from- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pilot_Plant
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ford Pilot Plant

Ford Pilot Plant facility, located at 17000 Oakwood Boulevard in Allen Park, Michigan, was opened in the summer of 1956 as the original location for the newly created Continental Division, where all Continental Mark II cars were assembled.

It was renamed the Edsel Division Headquarters until 1959, when Edsel was discontinued and later became the New Model Programs Development Center facility, where new models are tested and developed. The role of the pilot plant is to test manufacture new products for the first time, documenting the steps and procedures, before assembly line production begins at the designated factory. The location can manufacture several vehicles at one time, where products are moved from station to station on mobile carriages until the process is complete.[1]

It is located approximately two miles (3.2 km) west of the famou River Rouge facility, and approximately two miles (3.2 km) east of the Ford Dearborn Development Center, and adjacent to the Ford IT Business Innovation Center to the north. Interstate 94 is directly southeast of the facility. Beaumont Hospital Dearborn and Edsel Ford High School are nearby.[2][3]

The debate of this particular 56 FAIRLANE Victoria (*S6SV179817*) continues.

I believe the plant claim confusion comes from the (a) period ASM PLANT CODE CHART (shown in an above post) shows S as being the Pilot Plant which was originally/actually (SOMMERVILLE ASM). The 49/59 FINAL ISSUE MPC chart for example does not show an S ASSEMBLY PLANT.

Somewhere, someone has the true history of the period.

I believe the seller's PILOT PLANT claim was due to a misprint/mistake in the PLANT CHART. In all actuality, the S ENGINE CODE 312's most likely turned up across many final assembly plants.

BTW- It is funny that all of this started with the OP wanting to know if the LYB would fit into a 56 F100 chassis and not a 56 PASS CAR.

[KULTULZ]

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Think I have it finally-

The decoding chart shown below reads 49/59 but the chart is actually from the 60/64 MPC (or earlier edition(s).



This explains where the confusion began I believe.

The 56 FARIRLANE Victoria in question has a build code of 8H (08 AUG) which when compared to the mislabeled chart would lead one to believe that the car was built in Somerville and it was wrongfully thought to be a PILOT PLANT which it wasn't.

So Sal, you were correct and I was wrong ... ...er ... misinformed ...

If FORD did release a 56 FORD with the LYB 368 for POLICE only, it most likely would have been catalogued in the POLICE CATALOG -



Same as the 1958 POLICE 361. It was not catalogued in the MPC.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Think I have it finally-

The decoding chart shown below reads 49/59 but the chart is actually from the 60/64 MPC (or earlier edition(s).



This explains where the confusion began I believe.

The 56 FARIRLANE Victoria in question has a build code of 8H (08 AUG) which when compared to the mislabeled chart would lead one to believe that the car was built in Somerville and it was wrongfully thought to be a PILOT PLANT which it wasn't.

So Sal, you were correct and I was wrong ... ...er ... misinformed ...

Found the offending source- http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...49-59partA.htm

[scicala]

KULTULZ,


Thanks for all of your research ! I wasn't trying to be right about anything. I was just stating things I knew to be true from my experiences at Ford.


Sal

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

KULTULZ,

Thanks for all of your research ! I wasn't trying to be right about anything. I was just stating things I knew to be true from my experiences at Ford.


Sal

I understand Sal. I was just rattling your cage.

I don't care about being wrong or right but just trying to figure things out.

In this example of a vehicle description, I don't think anything was being represented fraudulently but just going with available knowledge.

Somewhere all of this info must be available.

As with the recent 60 FORD HP vehicle description example, big money can be spent for something that is not exactly correct.

There is much knowledge here (forum) when it is put all together.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Tommy Caruso

Will the Lincoln Y Block bolt in a 56 ford pickup that had a 292

Originally Posted by packrat5

I want to digress a bit. It could be done, but it would not exactly be a bolt in. If you could find a 800 series truck, the front motor mount plate could be used with a 57-60 front cross member, the bell housing and stick stuff maybe could be used with the "granny tranny" An FE stick setup could be adapted with some machine shop work. (good luck with that) Passenger cars never had a stick, but the automatic was the old GM Hydromatic in earlier versions, and the Cruiso was used in later ones. If you really want to lose the y-block,(?) conversion kits are available for almost any other type of engine conversion. When you consider the cost, weight, and parts availability, and other important parameters, the y-block is a way better engine choice. Only my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

Just to try and qualify the OP's question, yes it can be done as per packrat5's post description. A 279/317 or 302/332 HT engine must have been something else as well as the PASS CAR version(s).

The post was hi-jacked by myself as I mis-read LT for PASS CAR. A BENDSTEN adapter would allow use of a modern trans (IMO).

[big job]

Will a Y Lincoln fit in a 1956? Most will say no. But it is really a yes if you can find
these parts from any F700 up: front motor mount, bellhousing , ram exhaust manifolds.
The rear bellhousing mounts are the same. Only thing is and maybe a good thing, is
for the bellhousing you need 5sp transmission hopefully a overdrive, then mess with the
driveshaft. The fast and easy is a FE with FT front mount, ram exhaust either standard
with light duty 3 or 4speed or automatic. My three 1953 to1956 trucks I slid 391FTs
in there fit like they belong there all parts like exhaust pipes etc on the shelf Napa
all have Clark 5sp Od. Back when I put a 430 in a 1950 F8 most don't know that FE FT
bellhousing fit MEL blocks. I redrilled the flathead flywheel to the 430 to use flathead
starter. Now flip exhaust manifolds so they dump in the front to clear steer box.
Talk about a deep throat sound and blow the doors off any truck loaded but 3 mpg .
So bottom line is I would go with FE : Y blocks, MELs are now tough to find but do as
you wish. or find a truck 302 or 332 Y block setup used into the 1960s.
Sam my proof is I did all this.

[KULTULZ]

HEY big job!

THANX! for that info. It really helps.

Just one thing-

...most don't know that FE FTb ellhousing fit MEL blocks

The 58/60 MEL engine(s) had the same bell pattern as the FE. The MEL bell pattern was modified in 1961 to allow the starter motor to fit within the confines of the new 61 LINC uni-body apron rails.

[big job]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

HEY big job!

THANX! for that info. It really helps.

Just one thing-

The 58/60 MEL engine(s) had the same bell pattern as the FE. The MEL bell pattern was modified in 1961 to allow the starter motor to fit within the confines of the new 61 LINC uni-body apron rails.

Correct I should have said that. The 1961 change was also the same as 462.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by big job

Correct I should have said that. The 1961 change was also the same as 462.

You're OK...

I just wanted to mention it so somebody won't be cussin' you...

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ 03-16-2018 POST #17

Some years ago, a guy posted for show or sale possibly (including photo), a 56 FORD sporting a 368 4V install. The cars Patent Plate Engine Code was S and not cataloged. So most jumped on the band wagon (including myself) that it was a Police install.

Come to find out many years later it was all a misnomer. The S Car was assembled in MA and received the 312 4V.

Would you believe I saved the PATENT PLATE photo of the 56 with a 368 LYB install? This was the car that started the S-CODE 368 PI rumor. It also shows the mis-assembled engines went to other assembly plants other than Somerville -

SAN JOSE ASSEMBLY PLANT

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by scicala

This is the URL you posted that shows the pilot plant I was referring to.

https://macsmotorcitygarage.com/the-...ed-auto-plant/

Now used to help develop assembly lines for new products. They also used to build Lincolns and Edsels there in the 50's.

I worked at Ford in powertrain engineering for about 24 years, and went there many times to look at vehicles, or go to meetings. It's the only Pilot Plant I was ever aware of at Ford.

Sal

First assembly was CONTINENTAL (MARK II) (separate division from LINC, although a LINC drive-train was used). The plant then went to EDSEL assy. LINC and BIRD (1958/) were at WIXOM.


17000 OAKWOOD BLVD.
ALLEN PARK, MI.

[ZSK]

Originally Posted by big job

Will a Y Lincoln fit in a 1956? Most will say no. But it is really a yes if you can find
these parts from any F700 up: front motor mount, bellhousing , ram exhaust manifolds.
The rear bellhousing mounts are the same. Only thing is and maybe a good thing, is
for the bellhousing you need 5sp transmission hopefully a overdrive, then mess with the
driveshaft....

I know the thread as a whole is two years old but, I'll update this post/reply when I have some more pictures to post. I have a Lincoln 317 in my '56 F100. I believe that the exact parts you listed above are what was used for my truck's swap except for the transmission. I have a T98 4 speed instead of the Clark 5 speed.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by ZSK

I know the thread as a whole is two years old but, I'll update this post/reply when I have some more pictures to post. I have a Lincoln 317 in my '56 F100. I believe that the exact parts you listed above are what was used for my truck's swap except for the transmission. I have a T98 4 speed instead of the Clark 5 speed.

HEY! ...

THANX! for the info ...