Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-05-2011, 09:43 AM   #1
Vic in E-TN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Maryville, TN
Posts: 449
Question Lion Speed Head

About 8 years ago I bought 2 of the original Lion Speed Heads from Charlie Yapp. They have beern sitting in a box since then because I moved and did not have the time or the inclination to install them. Now I am thinking of installing one instead of a new 5.5 head from Snyder's on an otherwise good running engine.

Does anyone have any comments on the performance, troubles, your experience or anything else on the original Lion Speed Head?

Vic
Vic in E-TN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:24 AM   #2
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,605
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Hummm.........


Let me see if I can say this with a straight face. No seriously! Stop THAT!!

<gasp> OK, ... I guess it depends on what your goals are with the "Lyin' Head". If you want to impress someone who knows nothing about Model A's, then 'Go For It' and use it. If you want to make the front bumper on your 'A' sit lower to the ground due to weight of that head, then use it. Maybe yours will not have any casting issues either.

You will likely find that an across the board comparison will find the all-around drivability issues better with something other than the "Lyin' Head". I owned one and it detonated, ...was WAY to heavy, and IMHO (and that of some other speed gurus) has the spark plug placement in the wrong location. Based on my seat-of-the-pants evaluation, the better uses for one would be as a door stop or to anchor the boat out in the middle of the lake. Naturally you should speak with other 'banger gurus' who have many years of experience with making horsepower with a banger engine to get their opinion and feedback! I really hate to say much about it for fear someone might get the impression I was dissatisfied with mine. I would like to know how many people out there are still the original purchasers of their Lion head! THAT may be the real indicator since I believe you don't find too many people who tried a Brumfield, or a Price or Snyders head and then took them off!
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-05-2011, 10:28 AM   #3
Dave in MN
Senior Member
 
Dave in MN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jordan, MN
Posts: 1,280
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Vic,
I, just like you, bought one some time back.
I just installed the Lion Head III cast iron (LSH-III) on an engine I built up for a future project. Two weeks ago I installed it in my Phaeton for testing this summer. I do not have it dialed in yet as to maximum spark advance. I am currently running at a max advance of 28 BTDC and find it is very strong above 2000 rpm. Felt strength from idle to 1800 rpm is not much different than the 5.9 Brumfield on my previous engine in the Phaeton. Acceleration from 50mph to 60mph is quick using a stock Zenith and all the same equipment as the engine with the Brumfield...I am working on a new intake and "B" carb to add additional cfm at the upper range. I expect it to increase the power at the 55 mph mark. If I advance to 28 BTDC prior to reaching about 2200 rpm, there is what I detect to be some pre-ignition noise. I'm a bit concerned that I will need to be more mindful of how I set the spark. From my observations with limited road testing, the Brumfield was much less sensitive to the spark advance in all the rpm ranges than the LSH-III. Granted...the engine is different and there may be some other factors entering in. If you wish, I will keep you informed.
Good Day!
Dave in MN


Follow-up:
Well, I have it bolted on and it's paid for so I'll see for myself how it works. Given its sensitivity to spark advance, maybe it would companion well with a distributor that had centrifugal advance. I don't have a distributor like this to try...yet!
Vic, I just re-read your post and realized you were referring to an "original" LSH. I had purchased a LSH-III. I don't know if there is a difference.
ADDITIONAL REASON: (added after further testing) The extra weight of the Lion Speed Head is not detracting from the acceleration of my car. WOW! This thing really pulls hard above 1800 rpm. HOLY MOLY...

4/22/2014 Late last summer, I removed the head and hand softened all the sharp machined edges to eliminate any potential heat risers. Re-installed it and it is working well. On my engine, I have found the LSH-111 head performs best at about 26 degrees (max) of advance. More advance is not adding power. I installed a FSI auto advance distributor with the total advance range narrowed from stock and it compensates for the head's variable timing needs well. Lots more power than my other engine with a 5.9 Brumfield. The Brumfield produces 55hp with Nu-Rex electronic spark...manual advance. The Lion Speed Head lll, with same carb and exhaust but FSI Ignition, puts out 68hp. I judge the ignitions to be about equal so the head is making about 13 more horses.

Good Day!
Dave

Last edited by Dave in MN; 04-23-2014 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Update after a year of running.
Dave in MN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 01:00 PM   #4
hardtimes
Senior Member
 
hardtimes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 5,895
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN View Post
About 8 years ago I bought 2 of the original Lion Speed Heads from Charlie Yapp. They have beern sitting in a box since then because I moved and did not have the time or the inclination to install them. Now I am thinking of installing one instead of a new 5.5 head from Snyder's on an otherwise good running engine.

Does anyone have any comments on the performance, troubles, your experience or anything else on the original Lion Speed Head?

Vic
vic,
ive run a lsh 111 for 5 years and my warmed B runs great with the improvements i have , including electronic ign module. and i like the beefy weight/thickness of its metal ! regarding the first two versions...i hate to tell you; that i ended up with this third version of this type head because of the negative comments i heard from owners regarding the first two lsh versions. i avoided those first two and bought the lsh 111 version upon learning of positive comments owner satisfaction with that head. now...from 5 yr experience, i can say that it is/was money well spent. no problem encountered whatsoever, and i figure with the extra weight, that this version could be milled as much as desired/practical without deck 'thinness' concerns ! btw..i think my lsh 111 weighs in at nearly 53 lbs, and jmo, thats a good thing. hey if your 1/4 mi (47mph ?) racer rod isnt satisfying you due to (head) weight ....take the fenders/bumpers off
hardtimes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 02:13 PM   #5
Vic in E-TN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Maryville, TN
Posts: 449
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Brent, Dave & Hardtimes,
Wow, I had not seen much on the Lion and was just thinking about using what I had already paid for. I will definitely not use it. Brumfields are hard to come by and Snyder's are easy, so that is what I will get. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Vic
Vic in E-TN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 02:52 PM   #6
rmak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 114
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN View Post
Brent, Dave & Hardtimes,
Wow, I had not seen much on the Lion and was just thinking about using what I had already paid for. I will definitely not use it. Brumfields are hard to come by and Snyder's are easy, so that is what I will get. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Vic
Am I missing something? Brent didn't like it, Dave said the jury's still out and hardtimes liked the head.

What exactly was wrong with the earlier versions, hardtimes?
rmak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 06:30 PM   #7
Vic in E-TN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Maryville, TN
Posts: 449
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic
Vic in E-TN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 06:34 PM   #8
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,605
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN View Post
Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic
Vic, look at your head and see if the spark plugs are not located over top of the Pistons (instead of the valves). Also look at the combustion chamber and see if the edges are sharp. Also, check your PM.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 06:58 PM   #9
modelAsteve
Senior Member
 
modelAsteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Penn Valley (Nor-Cal) Ca
Posts: 128
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I believe Snyders heads are unavailable at this time. They are looking for a different foundry or machine shop. Can't get anyone at Brumfields to answer the phone and he doesn't answer an email. So that leaves good ole Charlie- lots of luck!
modelAsteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 07:06 PM   #10
TinCup
Senior Member
 
TinCup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: OKC / Tonkawa, Ok.
Posts: 1,973
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Haven't heard anything on Snyders but the last 2 heads I have seen that members have purchased recently were very rough castings.
__________________
Sooner Model A Club of Oklahoma
TinCup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 08:51 PM   #11
Bill Lee/Virginia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 295
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I purchased one of the first run of Lion Heads, number 8, I think, with dual plugs. I used Charlie's solid copper head gasket. I installed the LH on an engine built by Antique Engine Rebuilding of Skokie, IL that has inserts, touring cam and bored .080 over. I use a Mallory distributor to fire either bank of plugs but have not tried both banks at once. Either bank seems to perform the same, very good. I use the 6 cyl Ford downdraft carburetor on a modified '32 intake manifold (turned upside down). The differential is 3.54 to 1. When you release the clutch and push the gas, you better have the wheels pointed in the direction you want to go because you are going there, and rather quickly I might add.
Bill Lee/Virginia Peninsula
Bill Lee/Virginia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 09:20 PM   #12
Benson
Senior Member
 
Benson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Snork Key
Posts: 2,100
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN View Post
Now I understand that there are 3 versions of the Lion head.
Original - 1st version. The plugs are in the wrong place - over the valves.
Second version. They moved the plugs to over the valves I think.
Third version. They have an additional boss that can be drilled for a second spark plug.

The good reports and opinions are for the Lion 3. I had a discussion with a friend who has a Lion 3 and he is happy as is hardtimes. I may call Charlie Yapp soon to discuss. At this time, it looks like I have some overweight & not good brand new heads. Anyone out there want them?

Vic
The LH III head I saw had 4 plugs and no boss for extra set of plugs ... so there might be two variants of the III ??
Benson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 10:09 PM   #13
Ice man
Senior Member
 
Ice man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern Pines, N.Carolina
Posts: 210
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I have one on my B diamond. The difference before and after was profound, Really. I bought it cause, if I have a Hi speed head, it should look like one. I never had a problem with mine. And yes she runs like a scaulded DOG. Iceman
Ice man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 12:06 AM   #14
pat in Santa Cruz
Senior Member
 
pat in Santa Cruz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: santa cruz, calif
Posts: 2,009
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I have lion #13. It must be lucky 13. It did ping at first, due to the plug threads being extended too far into the combustion chamber. They acted like glow plugs. I ground the threads off below the tip of the spark plug, and sanded the sharp corners smooth ( not the edge that bites into the gasket). No more pinging. The head tolerates a lot of advance, its powerful and very smooth. The same engine with a Brumfield shaved to 7:1 is rough, tho' quite strong and tolerates only about 20 degrees advance.
pat in Santa Cruz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 05:05 AM   #15
MN Stumpjumper
Senior Member
 
MN Stumpjumper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 187
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Looks like most all topics,split reviews. I ran a Lion on an otherwise stock engine, definate power improvement. Personally, unless you are racing, the weight shouldn't make much difference. I like the looks of the head. Vic, P.M. me I have room for more Lion's!
MN Stumpjumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 06:20 AM   #16
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,975
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I had number 6, 7-1 it was on a much modified A engine. .155 over bore home made alum rods 1 13/16 intake valves, Stipe cam, down draft Ford 6 carb, light flywheel. This pick up would do well over 80 miles per hour. So I can not say about a stock engine. First I noticed the head was so heavy it would stay on with out bolts, well maybe not. It never could get enough spark advance with out spark knock. Probably because the plugs were in the wrong place. I changed it out for a Brumfield 7-1 it ran much better.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 06:31 AM   #17
Cajun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 104
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

I installed a Piriano modified Lion III to replace a Thomas Aluminum head. Performance from 0 to 50 MPH was 1 second quicker. Much more felt power.

The only thing that puzzles me is that it runs slightly warmer.
Cajun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 07:48 AM   #18
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,605
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajun View Post
I installed a Piriano modified Lion III to replace a Thomas Aluminum head. Performance from 0 to 50 MPH was 1 second quicker. Much more felt power.

The only thing that puzzles me is that it runs slightly warmer.
It should run warmer as the aluminum head dissipates heat better.
.

.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 07:59 AM   #19
Cajun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 104
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Thanks Brent. I have been looking for a cause. I am really impressed with the performance difference.
Cajun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 10:22 AM   #20
CHARLIE YAPP
Junior Member
 
CHARLIE YAPP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: OUTSIDE CINCINNATI OH
Posts: 6
Default Re: Lion Speed Head

Charlie Yapp here; Thanks to exactly 47 men (so far) that have given me the heads up on the spirited comments made by Brent Terry on this important and informative board. Terry misused it as a propaganda Board. I have only met Brent once and found him to be a Model A man from the git go. However, his misinformed attitude about my Lion Speed Head is devastating to say the least.

Brent has his way of adding to our hobby by investing in his goodwill to teach others at his shop how to restore Model A Fords and we all would applaud his dedication to the hobby.

My telephone, email and home are open 24/7 to those with questions about my line of over 500 + speed products for Model Aís. I hide nothing and share as much as I can. I made these parts for you guys to have fun. . . I feel horrible that he has an unfair attitude and broadcasts it in a forum that should be for the truth and not prejudice. I can be contacted at cy4fn@aol.com

Why would I produce over 500 different speed parts that didnít work well? My heads have been dynoíd and so far nothing ever mass produced - so far - has more HP, torque and potential as the Lions. Please go to this site for more information
http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/lionstk.htm

Let me address the spark plug position: When I reproduced the Riley Two Port (1st version) it had the plugs on the driverís side and was a casting nightmare to make. With tremendous trial and tribulation, thousands of dollars spent and 2-1/2 year of research we finally succeeded and to date, so far, I have shipped 715 reliable, dependable units. Historical records show that the Riley Two Port 1st version beat all other versions of the Riley 2 port.

The technology and impressive performance of spark plugs on the driverís side has become a one of my trademarks . . . an identifier . . if you will. You will find all my heads (Lion, Lizard, Riley, Roof) have this positive characteristic . . . and each is heavy by design not by mistake.
In the Lion 1st version, many guys asked if it wouldnít be possible to have 8 spark plugs . . hey why not . . double the fun. On later versions of the Lion I dropped the 4 plugs over the valves because . . they did not make as much HP as the driverís side.

I have sold over 1000 of these heads. Yes, as in all undertakings, there have been minor issues, about .5%, that have been corrected, fixed or replaced. . . I stand behind my products.

The weight issue . . .It is the weight (stupid) that makes this head so smooth running and powerful. It also makes it possible for the experimenter to remove metal and reshape the chambers. Yes, it is heavy and if Terry makes a choice to use it as a boat anchor, I would think that to be a very bad choice. . . but as Terry is one of the "banger Boys" I guess that is what he will do . . . For more on the "Banger Boys" get the April issues of Secrets Magazine.

The Lion presently sells for $555 and that should be in Terryís favor if and when he chooses to sell it. Due to a serious bankruptcy we lost our machine shop and Iím struggling to get these heads back online. They should be available this winter with a new chamber (so you can use bigger valve with out modification) and an 8 plug aluminum version V.

Allow me to correct Terry about aluminum heads: they rot from electrolysis, do not hold heat properly, pound for pound feature for feature they do not make the same HP as an identical cast iron version and they have reduced total spark advance characteristics. They do weight less and they polish nicely.

My mom always said, "foolís names in foolish places". That was in an age without internet. By expressing his poor judgement on this wall in broadens the damage to his reputation and to mine without recourse. It not good, fair or honest to be an spokesman for our community of Ford enthusiasts with the mean spirited B.S that comes from Mr. Terry.

One guy said I should sue him. I donít do that but a apology is in order.
Sincerely,
Charlie Yapp
Yapp Studios, Inc
3860 Cain Run Rd
Batavia OH 45103
513-724-0700
cy4fn@aol.com
CHARLIE YAPP is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:41 AM.