Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

[yblock57]

Update 12/17/20 — issue in this case turned out to be the throttle valve installed wrong in the valve body. Dominic Hide nailed it in post #23. His picture shows one that was stuck. Mine ended up being installed incorrectly by the rebuilder. Once this was corrected, the transmission shifted correctly.

********************

Howdy everyone. Apologies in advance for the long post. Any help you have to offer is greatly appreciated! Done a lot of reading on here and elsewhere and can't seem to find a solution.

Looking for some advice/direction on how to solve late shifting and very harsh downshifting issues on a medium-case Fordomatic in my '57 bird.

Background:

Transmission was rebuilt by a local trans shop that specialized in older stuff. We pulled engine out to keep costs down and took trans in for a bench job. Everything went back together fine. Shift points are very late (30+mph regardless of throttle pressure) from 2nd to 3rd. It also downshifts back to 2nd at around the same speed (harsh).

All linkage adjustments were checked and reset several times per the shop manual to try and remedy. No change in shift points — it doesn't matter how far the rod is shortened or lengthened. Car went back twice to the shop and they basically threw in the towel and said that's how it works. Car went to two other shops where the valve body was dropped and they discovered a sticky throttle valve. This also made no difference to the shift points. Reset linkage again and no matter where the adjustment, car shifts same (late). In fact, it shifts the same with the kick-down rod completely disconnected. Something else is going on here.

The transmission goes into gear very quick and crisp from park to reverse, drive & low and shifts nice and firm — just late. From reading the Fordomatic manual, I was leaning toward the governor being a possible issue. I pulled it out and it appears to be in good shape. Piston is not sticking and no contamination visible. Appears to have been installed correctly. (Was hoping it wasn't and would be the cure to the problem.)

video of governor:
https://youtu.be/yBX84igvJ2M

We have a couple of other cars with this same transmission and have no problems adjusting the shift points with the kick-down rod. In fact, they're fairly sensitive to small adjustments. They all can be made to shift around 22 mph per the shop manual as well.

Should I be looking at something else? Fluid is still very nice and red and fresh smelling. Running Type F. Only a 150-ish miles put on since the overhaul. I really hate to have to pull this thing back out again. Hoping it's fixable in the car!

Thanks in advance!
Kent

[oldave57]

Hello Kent,

I have a 1957 Skyliner with the Fordomatic transmission. Last spring I pulled the transmission to install a "front seal kit" (front trans. pump seals, large converter o'ring). When I reinstalled the transmission, I noticed that started to shift later than before and I fiddled with the transmission throttle valve linkage which really didn't help much. On my transmission, the late shift seemed to correct itself once the transmission had warmed up and then continued to shift well as long as the transmission was at operating temperature. I thought about pulling the pan to look at the throttle valve but decided instead to add Sea Foam Trans Tune Additive (16 oz). Now I know there are lots of opinions on additives, but I'm telling you that on the very first drive with the additive, the transmission began shifting (both up and down) quite nicely and went back to what I would consider normal. It now shifts up (2nd to 3rd) at around 20-25 MPH with light throttle which is exactly what I was looking for. The additive does not contain seal conditioners (which I really didn't want) and specifically indicates it can clean and free up sticky valves. I got my Sea Foam at O'Reilly's but it is available at most any automotive store or Amazon.

Good Luck,
Dave

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

. . . .
Fluid is still very nice and red and fresh smelling. Running Type F. Only a 150-ish miles put on since the overhaul. I really hate to have to pull this thing back out again. Hoping it's fixable in the car!

Thanks in advance!
Kent

for whatever it's worth...
When I asked the shop that rebuilt my Fordomatic what fluid to use they said, "Mercon".
Other folks here have said the fluid used makes a difference in the smoothness of the shifting.
.

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by oldave57

Hello Kent,

I have a 1957 Skyliner with the Fordomatic transmission. Last spring I pulled the transmission to install a "front seal kit" (front trans. pump seals, large converter o'ring). When I reinstalled the transmission, I noticed that started to shift later than before and I fiddled with the transmission throttle valve linkage which really didn't help much. On my transmission, the late shift seemed to correct itself once the transmission had warmed up and then continued to shift well as long as the transmission was at operating temperature. I thought about pulling the pan to look at the throttle valve but decided instead to add Sea Foam Trans Tune Additive (16 oz). Now I know there are lots of opinions on additives, but I'm telling you that on the very first drive with the additive, the transmission began shifting (both up and down) quite nicely and went back to what I would consider normal. It now shifts up (2nd to 3rd) at around 20-25 MPH with light throttle which is exactly what I was looking for. The additive does not contain seal conditioners (which I really didn't want) and specifically indicates it can clean and free up sticky valves. I got my Sea Foam at O'Reilly's but it is available at most any automotive store or Amazon.

Good Luck,
Dave

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

for whatever it's worth...
When I asked the shop that rebuilt my Fordomatic what fluid to use they said, "Mercon".
Other folks here have said the fluid used makes a difference in the smoothness of the shifting.
.

Dave -
Thanks for the info. Mine does seem to shift sooner once it's warmed up but never before 30 mph. When it's cold, it's closer to 40 mph which is almost twice the speed the shop manual says (22 mph).

What fluid are you running?

Thanks,
Kent

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

for whatever it's worth...
When I asked the shop that rebuilt my Fordomatic what fluid to use they said, "Mercon".
Other folks here have said the fluid used makes a difference in the smoothness of the shifting.
.

I have heard that as well. We went with Type F on the advice from the rebuilder. I'm sure it's contributing to the firm shifts. I'm not sure it would cause it to shift so late though.

Run Type F in 2 other fordomatics and they work just fine. Not sure what to think other than the shop didn't do the job right... ugh.

[Daves55Sedan]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

for whatever it's worth...
When I asked the shop that rebuilt my Fordomatic what fluid to use they said, "Mercon".
Other folks here have said the fluid used makes a difference in the smoothness of the shifting.
.

I agree with dmsfrr. Type F is not a recommended replacement for type A (the original type fluid). I have also heard other folks complain about hard, abrupt shifting when using type F in Fordomatics. Dexron/Mercon fluid is the recommended fluid to use in Fordomatics.

[Daves55Sedan]

If there is no difference in the position of the passing gear link with regard to shift/mph, I would immediately suspect that the shifting fork inside the transmission is not connected at all.
I recommend NOT continuing to run in this condition until that situation is explored, or possible damage could result.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

I recommend NOT continuing to run in this condition until that situation is explored, or possible damage could result.

Listen to the man. The pre-1961 FM is controlled by throttle valve pressure and the correct pressure is determined with a pressure gauge. Setting the linkage gets it in the ball park for vehicle assembly/service but it was adjusted by gauge before it went out the door. Same procedure for service.

The early FM will burn as will an AOD w/o the correct pressure setting. It is also difficult to adjust by linkage alone now as everything (linkages) will be worn.

TYPE F is for a firmer shift and is safe to use.

TYPE A(s) has long since been replaced by a continuing series of DEXRON. Normal driving calls for current DEXRON.

[oldave57]

Kent,

I am using Type F transmission fluid in my 1957 Skyliner with 312 and Fordomatic. Prior to owning this car, I had a 1957 Fairlane 500 with 292 and Fordomatic. I had that car for 17 years and ran Type F fluid in that car for all of those years with absolutely no problems. I know there are lots of opinions on type of transmission fluid, but I feel quite comfortable with the type F fluid and I like the more firm shifting that comes from this fluid.

Dave

[40 Deluxe]

As mentioned earlier, the throttle valve may not be properly indexed with the internal linkage. Have you had a pressure gauge on it? Use the port behind the throttle lever and compare pressure readings with the specs. in the manual. If the throttle valve is properly connected, check for wear in the governor valve bore. If the valve is too loose, fluid may be leaking past the valve, causing low governor pressure, thus causing late shifts.

[yblock57]

Thanks for the tips on the throttle valve! One of the shops said they fixed a 'sticky' throttle valve in there, but no change was observed. I have no way of knowing exactly what they did.

I pulled the valve out of the governor and made a new video. The piston has a very slight amount of side to side play. Could this be a possible issue with pressure loss? Moves nice and smooth without any roughness. Here's the video:

https://youtu.be/u06DsbFrAh8

I need to get a pressure gauge and test. Do y'all happen to know the thread of the mentioned port above the throttle lever? Looking at something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/JIFETOR-Press...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

I'd like to get some pressure readings before I drop the pan again.

Appreciate all the help!

[55blacktie]

Drag racers use Type F because it reduces slippage, resulting in firmer shifts, but slippage creates heat, which will kill an automatic transmission, and it wastes horsepower, all of which are concerns when trying to get down the track as quickly as possible. For all other applications, I would change the fluid and clean/replace the filter more frequently when using Type F.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by yblock57

Thanks for the tips on the throttle valve! One of the shops said they fixed a 'sticky' throttle valve in there, but no change was observed. I have no way of knowing exactly what they did.

I pulled the valve out of the governor and made a new video. The piston has a very slight amount of side to side play. Could this be a possible issue with pressure loss? Moves nice and smooth without any roughness. Here's the video:

https://youtu.be/u06DsbFrAh8

I need to get a pressure gauge and test. Do y'all happen to know the thread of the mentioned port above the throttle lever? Looking at something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/JIFETOR-Press...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

I'd like to get some pressure readings before I drop the pan again.

Appreciate all the help!

The pressure port is 1/8" pipe thread.

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

The pressure port is 1/8" pipe thread.

Thank you, sir!

[rotorwrench]

If a person does the pressure test and it seems to be in the range but on the low side then it may have an internal leak. The transfer tubes can leak, the piston rings can leak, and the servo pistons can leak. The governor is back there with the tubes & piston rings. If shifts are positive but late then I would gravitate toward that area around the governor. Leaky servos will not give very positive shifting and especially with the old metal clutch packs.

I don't think this problem would have much to do with the type of ATF.

[yblock57]

I think I might be onto something here. After watching a ton of tear-down/rebuild videos and looking at diagrams, I think the governor was installed backwards at the time of rebuild.

Here's a link to the video I made. Apologies on the quality. Working under a '57 bird without a lift is no picnic. I pulled the top part of the governor off previously to check the piston operation.

https://youtu.be/xWXLqUnh5Sw

If anyone can confirm that the governor is indeed on backwards, that would really help! Also if anyone has ever pulled a fordomatic tail shaft on a 55-57 thunderbird in the car — that would be good to know if it's even possible.

Thanks for all the help!
Kent

[Dominic Hide]

Just looked at your video. The spring is something added by a rebuilder to either compensate for worn governor or as a performance modification to do exactly what you are describing, late shifting. Reinstall it without the spring and your trans will shift normally. If the governor is worn the most noticeable consequence will be the trans will remain in high gear at a stop light and not change down until you start to pull away and fluid pressure is increased. Under this condition a helper spring can be used, but no where near as long as the one you have. A single tapered coil is plenty, and when compressed the wire should not lay on top of itself. (The spring under the float on a Holley 4000 carb is a good source from which to cut a coil)


ps the governor is installed in the correct position.

[Dominic Hide]

guvenor wire.jpg

Some reshaping of spring may be necessary.

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by Dominic Hide

Just looked at your video. The spring is something added by a rebuilder to either compensate for worn governor or as a performance modification to do exactly what you are describing, late shifting. Reinstall it without the spring and your trans will shift normally. If the governor is worn the most noticeable consequence will be the trans will remain in high gear at a stop light and not change down until you start to pull away and fluid pressure is increased. Under this condition a helper spring can be used, but no where near as long as the one you have. A single tapered coil is plenty, and when compressed the wire should not lay on top of itself. (The spring under the float on a Holley 4000 carb is a good source from which to cut a coil)


ps the governor is installed in the correct position.

Dominic —

Thanks for clarifying this for me. I have bought a NOS governor and will use that extension on my existing gov body when it comes in.

Glad to know pulling the tail shaft is not necessary!

Thanks again,
Kent

[Dominic Hide]

A little tip that you may find useful when it comes time to reinstall. If you replace the stock slot head screws with equivalent size socket cap head screws, a flat head allen wrench (not ball end) will hold the whole assembly, making it a one handed operation.

guvner.jpg

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by Dominic Hide

A little tip that you may find useful when it comes time to reinstall. If you replace the stock slot head screws with equivalent size socket cap head screws, a flat head allen wrench (not ball end) will hold the whole assembly, making it a one handed operation.

Attachment 445201

Excellent tip! If it has to come out again, that's what I'm doing.

I did get the NOS gov installed last night. Unfortunately it didn't make any difference in shifting. Still shifts at 33 mph regardless of kick-down rod adjustment. Removed it from the equation at least.

The NOS gov did NOT have a spring as several have mentioned on here. Installed without a spring and was hoping that would get me in the ballpark, but no dice.

Any suggestions on where to look next appreciated.

I know I need to get some pressure readings and have bought a gauge. Will run the tests and post back.

Thanks,
Kent

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

Excellent tip! If it has to come out again, that's what I'm doing.

I did get the NOS gov installed last night. Unfortunately it didn't make any difference in shifting. Still shifts at 33 mph regardless of kick-down rod adjustment. Removed it from the equation at least.

The NOS gov did NOT have a spring as several have mentioned on here. Installed without a spring and was hoping that would get me in the ballpark, but no dice.

Any suggestions on where to look next appreciated.

I know I need to get some pressure readings and have bought a gauge. Will run the tests and post back.

Thanks,
Kent

There is a bracket on the valve body that limits the outward travel of the throttle valve which controls minimum throttle valve pressure. Sometimes this bracket gets bent holding the valve in slightly raising the minimum pressure causing higher shift points and firmer shifts.
Bill

[Dominic Hide]

Well that's unfortunate, sure felt the spring would be the culprit. I still feel that the transmission is seeing more throttle pressure than is really there. First I would double check that the control rod is adjusted as short as possible and also that the spring on the detent at the bellcrank is holding and not letting the linkage slip into passing gear mode when you press the accelerator. If all that checks out then I think I would next take a look at the valve body.

IMG_0939valve body 2.jpg

valve b0dy 2.jpg

the valve body on the right in each of these pictures shows a stuck throttle position valve. When working correctly the control arm rests against the piston behind the L bracket. Foot pedal movement will push the piston into the main body where it compresses a spring, visible in the open area in the middle of the body. Once spring is compressed enough it will move a second piston to exit the other end of the passage. Once foot feed is lifted the second piston should be snapped back into the main body by the spring steel strap. If either the first piston is stuck in, or the second piston is stuck out then he transmission will be seeing incorrect throttle position. Valve body on left shows pistons in correct position when at rest.
Not saying this is the answer to you're problem, just where I would look next. If all that checks out OK then I think I would do an air check for a broken distribution ring. Pretty easy to check while the pan is off, but not so easy to repair if needed.

[40 Deluxe]

Many years ago I dealt with one of these early Fordomatics that was acting weird. I forget the details, but there is an aluminum sleeve pressed into the front of the output shaft that directs fluid through the shaft to the governor that can get out of position. You my have a similar problem or a blockage in the shaft passages........I just found a cross section view in my 1959 Chilton's Auto Repair Manual, page 109 and an end view on page 123. Both the output shaft and the intermediate (or "primary sun gear shaft") have metal seal rings that could be bent or broken or missing.

I don't know how to get a diagram from the printed page to this forum, but if you PM me your email, I will attempt to text you a picture from my phone. I just took the pictures and they turned out clear and readable! Let me know.

[yblock57]

Thanks for the responses!

I did a little checking on the throttle linkage. Dad said he set the linkage and accelerator pedal height per the shop manual with the 1/4" drill bit to lock the pieces in place and get everything set. I have not double-checked his work, but it looks correct. What seems to be an issue here is the throttle stops at about 1/2 travel. If you remove the kick-down rod it moves completely open with no resistance. I can't believe this was not noticed until now. I've included a link below to a video I made to help explain what I'm looking at.

https://youtu.be/_61b9NP3g2Y

This was an issue when we put the transmission back in and was explored then. I thought this had been resolved but obviously not. For the sake of comparison, I made a video of a friend's '57 thunderbird with the same functioning setup and his kick-down rod appears to have the same amount of travel (approx. 1")

https://youtu.be/W6HoDwVATnk

I'm going to go back through the steps listed in the manual on setting up the bell-crank linkage and see if that possibly changes things. If not, maybe something is possibly bent or needs to be looked at closer.

Would any of this indicate a stuck throttle valve as Dominic Hide suggests? I feel a positive stop when depressing the rod and it springs back up to the top again. Possibly a bent bracket on the throttle body that bbrocksr mentioned?

[bbrocksr]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by yblock57

Thanks for the responses!

I did a little checking on the throttle linkage. Dad said he set the linkage and accelerator pedal height per the shop manual with the 1/4" drill bit to lock the pieces in place and get everything set. I have not double-checked his work, but it looks correct. What seems to be an issue here is the kick-down rod only has approximately 1" of travel. This stops everything at about 1/2 open throttle. I can't believe this was not noticed until now. I've included a link below to a video I made to help explain what I'm looking at.

https://youtu.be/_61b9NP3g2Y

Would this indicate a stuck throttle valve as Dominic Hide suggests? I feel a positive stop when depressing the rod and it springs back up to the top again. Possibly a bent bracket on the throttle body that bbrocksr mentioned? 1" of travel doesn't seem to be enough to operate.

I feel like this is getting close.

With the pan off work the lever by hand and watch the valve movement.
Spring pressure will hold the valve against the lever and the lever against the L shaped stop. The L shaped stop bracket is the bracket I referred to .
I have seen them get bent toward the valve holding the lever and the valve in slightly increasing the pressure

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

With the pan off work the lever by hand and watch the valve movement.
Spring pressure will hold the valve against the lever and the lever against the L shaped stop. The L shaped stop bracket is the bracket I referred to .
I have seen them get bent toward the valve holding the lever and the valve in slightly increasing the pressure

I will absolutely be checking this. Want to get a line pressure test first before I drop the pan to get some baseline readings.

I suspect this could be an issue along with something else in the valve body. I drove the car with the kick-down rod completely removed and it still shifted at 32 mph regardless so the pressure is obviously still too high.

Thanks,
Kent

[Gene F]

This is great. Someone is having a problem, and people are trying to help diagnose the issue. This is how these boards are supposed to work. The only thing better is when it's fixed if the solution is reported fully explained. That closes the deal.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

I don't know how to get a diagram from the printed page to this forum, but if you PM me your email, I will attempt to text you a picture from my phone. I just took the pictures and they turned out clear and readable! Let me know.

If you can upload the photo(s) to your computer, it is fairly easy to post them here.

[email protected]

[yblock57]

I drug my butt off the couch last night and got the pressure readings on the thunderbird. As suspected, they're higher than the ranges specified in the book. The stall tests were low due to things binding at half-throttle due to the kick-down rod not moving enough. I made sure everything was up to temp before getting readings.

I rechecked the linkage adjustments before I started the test. The only thing I couldn't get in spec was the accelerator pedal height. Book says '57 thunderbird should be 4 7/8". I couldn't get any more than 3" with the adjustment set as far as it would travel. Not sure that matters much in the scheme of things but wanted to make a note of it.

Line pressure readings (psi):

Idle in drive — 80 — Book says 55-70
1k rpm in drive — 140 — Book says 80-85
Stall in drive — 150 — Book says 147-180 (not really full throttle as my linkage limits me around 1/2 throttle so this is probably a lot higher)
Stall in reverse —190 — Book says 194-216 (same as above)

Thought about dropping the pan but was too tired. Now that I have the numbers, that confirms what we talked about. I removed the kick-down rod from the transmission and measured 3/4" movement. I think it needs to move more. It would explain the linkage binding. I'll be looking closely at the 'L' bracket on the throttle body when I drop the pan.

This is starting to make sense. Trans is seeing too much pressure and shifting late because of it. Hopefully the 150ish miles put on it haven't damaged anything.

[rotorwrench]

I doubt if too much pressure like that will hurt as long as the problem is corrected soon. It's usually not enough pressure that kills the plates due to slippage.

[Gene F]

I have a 57 Skyliner with a 292 that was a 2-brl. I changed it over to a tri-power. Turns out it was not a big deal until I decided I wanted to keep my automatic trans. After reading everything, and my own experience, I believe that the TV rod is where the trouble lies. The trans thinks that the throttle is down. That is why it's shifting late, and the pressure is higher than desired.

That TV linkage is the equivelant of a throttle position sensor on a new car. Shorten the throw of that TV linkage FROM THE MANIFOLD ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE TRANS ARM NEAR THE PAN, and the car shifts sooner and softer. Hence longer means harder. In my case going from the Ford manifold to the Offy manifold the mounting height above the garage floor for the was lower. I had to cut my rod, and thread it more, because it was simply too long (the lower rod with the pin through it).

I have an idea. Find another car like yours, and get under it and measure how far that TV rod is above the garage floor. Then have someone reach in and hold the accelerator fully open, and measure again. There is your answer.

Just my 2-cents...

[KULTULZ]

The main problem(s) (IMO) with this type of trans is the TV control. While there is nothing basically wrong with the design, worn, incorrect assemblies and incorrect adjustments are the main culprit(s). The same problem(s) are repeated with the later AOD, although not to the same extent as most are cable operated.

If one desires a more performance style trans (over a normal driver), the FMX swap/upgrade is the way to go as it retains the early design/appearance and does not need an expensive adapter kit.

Read This - https://sixtyford.wordpress.com/2014...ide-apparatus/

[KULTULZ]

Good overall description of period fluids -

The original trans fluid spec for almost everything in the USA prior to 1968 was "Type A, Suffix A" automatic trans fluid. Earlier versions didn't have the "Suffix A" designation.

Type F ATF was a Ford exclusive fluid from 1968 until they started having many different fluids in the 1990s. That was the same year that GM came out with their GM-spec "Dexron" fluid. Chrysler eased from Type A Suffix A into Dexron in '68, also, as the supplies and ready availability of Type A Suffix A fluid dwindled.

The difference in Type F and Dexron differed in their frictional characteristics of the "initial apply" of the frictional units in the trans. GM added clutch capacity to their trans so they could use a fluid with a less agressive (i.e., "smoooth") apply whereas Ford went the other way, with more agressive apply and less clutch capacity, so "intentional overload" would result in a slight amount of "slip" due to the lesser clutch torque capacity, friction material wise. CAR LIFE magazine had an article on this subject, back then, with graphics of the clutch/band apply actions of each transmission.

Type F fluid was a "hot rod trick" for GM transmissions, sometimes mimicing a shift kit installation with the "more positive" shifts. B&M Transmission products seemingly patterned their "TRICK SHIFT" fluid after the way the Ford Type F fluid behaved, but that's speculation based on the way a GM trans acted with Trick Shift in it.

In later years, manufacturers have found somewhat better ways to modulate shift harshness/firmness. Line pressure variations and electronic controls are some.

When my grandmother was driving the '58 Fairlane (292-2bbl, F-O-M), I distinctly recall how positive the initial engagement was going into the forward drive ranges or "R" from "P" or "N". That was when Type A fluid was still around. On that orientation, I think I'd use Dexron to lessen the initial shift shock for the drivetrain (u-joints and rear axle internals).

I'm somewhat surprised that NAPA showed the Type F rather than the later Mercon V fluid. In many cases, Dexron III and Mercon V are sold with the same branding, but I suspect the Mercon V fluid might have a better base fluid stock than Dexron did as I know a few transmission shops who converted to Mercon V rather than use Dexron III. In that older trans, I believe I'd NOT use the newer Dexron VI fluid . . . it's believed to be a blended-synthetic base stock and is more expensive. Seems that the Mercon-spec fluid had a better anti-shudder friction modifier for lockup torque converters, which would not be applicable here.

ONE distinction between the Ford ATF, whether Type F or Mercon V, is that they are also rated for power steering use. Dexron-family ATF is not, as GM has their own specific power steering fluid. Although Ford has allegedly ceased licensing the Type F oil, it's still available from Motorcraft.

In the USA, Type A fluid is still around, but not in the usual places. It used to be prevalent in the convenience stores and food stores, of all places, plus some older auto supplies who had clientel who had older vehicles which needed it.

The NAPA recommendation of Type F might be due to the recommendation of Valvoline for Type F fluid in "Ford products prior to 1980". Of course, by the time 1980 came around, people had forgotten about Type A spec fluid and it was well known that Ford automatic took Type F fluid (at least from 1968+), until later transmissions needed specific fluids. I suspect that if you look around, you'll find some Type A fluid somewhere.

From my own experiences, I'd NOT put Dexron in any power steering unit . . . the rubber seals and o-rings are not compatible with that fluid, causing seeps and weeps . . . all of which stopped when I bled the system and put normal (Chrysler in this case) PS fluid in the system.

In the world of GM, though, they recommend the most current Dexron fluid (Dex VI) to be backward compatible all the way to 1948 in GM automatics. ONLY Type A fluids existed back then. My concern about using Dex VI in earlier transmissions is that in some cases, seal materials might not have the longevity they need to have with a fluid that has some or more synthetic in it than the orig fluid did. Hence, Dexron/Mercon multi-make fluid.

This might be a somewhat complicated answer, but there are several ways to look at this situation.

Regards,
NTX5467

QUOTED SOURCE - https://forums.aaca.org/topic/197099-ford-o-matic/

TYPE F is still readily available. TYPE A(s) are now used mainly for dirt bike trans usage

MERCON V is a partial synthetic and supersedes all previous FORD MERCON types. If you have a problem using a synthetic, DEXRON is still available in the old blend (GM). FORD only uses MERCON V. If the car is a late model, check OWNERS MANUAL or MOTORCRAFT LUBE CHART for proper fluid type.

FORD used(s) DEXRON and/or TYPE F PS FLUID according to period application. Again, OWNERS MANUAL

FORD and GM went their separate ways in 1961 as each modified their trans for different shifting firmness. TYPE F was not introduced until 1967 for the 1968 model run.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Good overall description of period fluids -

Type F fluid was a "hot rod trick" for GM transmissions, sometimes mimicing a shift kit installation with the "more positive" shifts. B&M Transmission products seemingly patterned their "TRICK SHIFT" fluid after the way the Ford Type F fluid behaved, but that's speculation based on the way a GM trans acted with Trick Shift in it.

You're onto something here! Read the fine print on a bottle of B&M "Trick Shift". It says "Meets Type F specifications"! So it's possible "TRICK SHIFT" fluid is just Type F in a fancy bottle!
By the way, thanks for your research on ATF types. Well done!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

You're onto something here! Read the fine print on a bottle of B&M "Trick Shift". It says "Meets Type F specifications"! So it's possible "TRICK SHIFT" fluid is just Type F in a fancy bottle!

By the way, thanks for your research on ATF types. Well done!

Yes, TRICK SHIFT is a TYPE-F fluid basically ...

I studied all ATF TYPES some years ago due to the lack of knowledge back then. The author of that info was not me but a poster on another FORUM who basically put it all in a nutshell.

THANX for the kind words but it was not me, just trying to bring info to light.

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by yblock57

The only thing I couldn't get in spec was the accelerator pedal height. Book says '57 thunderbird should be 4 7/8". I couldn't get any more than 3" with the adjustment set as far as it would travel. Not sure that matters much in the scheme of things but wanted to make a note of it.

It actually might matter. If you can get the accelerator pedal at the right height, your passing gear link will be able to travel the factory designed length.

The T-Birds have what they car an "accelerator connecting link between your firewall bellcrank and intake manifold bellcrank. The thing to do is to remove that link, then put a temporary wood block under the gas pedal till it is at the right height. Then go back and fit your accelerator connecting link into place and see how far you need to adjust it. Be careful not to get too far near the end of the threaded rod in the link, you made need to screw it back in some and loosen the other end and unscrew that end. (Lengthening the accelerator connecting link will push your gas pedal further off the floor).
Next you must redo your passing gear linkage adjustment as shown on page 21 of the 1956 Fordomatic shop manual.

[KULTULZ]

Next you must redo your passing gear linkage adjustment as shown on page 21 of the 1956 Fordomatic shop manual.

There is no passing gear adjustment (intermediate gear) externally. There is no passing gear kick-down lever. It is a TV rod.

The reason for the initial linkage adjustment(s) are to get the linkages into the ball park as final adjustment(s) are done with a pressure gauge and makes that adjustment more precise and easier to perform.

Also, manuals are updated quarterly, and along with TSB's, will give any updated service procedure(s). The 56 manual may not be up to then 1957 specifications.

You have to follow the procedure outlined in the correct manual, and that starts with proper curb idle speed.

[rotorwrench]

I would also wonder if there is a possibility that the engine was changed at some point and it may not have the same linkage as it originally had. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since 1957.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I would also wonder if there is a possibility that the engine was changed at some point and it may not have the same linkage as it originally had. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since 1957.

Yes, but that should be discovered while following the basic linkage setup procedure. It also may be worn-out/binding (pivot points).

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Yes, but that should be discovered while following the basic linkage setup procedure. It also may be worn-out/binding (pivot points).

The original poster says that the problem is still there with the linkage disconnected. With the linkage disconnected the spring behind the throttle valve will return it to minimum pressure position.
Bill

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

The original poster says that the problem is still there with the linkage disconnected. With the linkage disconnected the spring behind the throttle valve will return it to minimum pressure position.

Bill

But what is minimum pressure without TV activation?

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

But what is minimum pressure without TV activation?

Minimum TV pressure is when the valve and lever are against the stop/L shaped bracket.
When the throttle is opened the lever moves the valve away from the stop increasing the pressure. When the throttle is closed the valve and lever are returned to the stop by spring pressure lowering the pressure to minimum.
Minimum TV pressure is controlled by the stop. If the stop was to get bent in toward the valve it would raise the minimum pressure.
That L shaped stop bracket sticks out like a sore thumb and is easily bent.
Bill

[KULTULZ]

You are correct, but all of this will not happen with the TV rod disconnected unless the lever itself is actuated in some manner to arrive at correct TV pressure.

The trans assy has to see proper TV pressure to operate properly according to its' calibration(s). You would/could fine tune and modify from that point. The same with a vacuum modulator valve, it is adjustable.

Or am I off on an incorrect tangent?

[yblock57]

Ok, got the pan off and took at look at things. Made another video showing the TV linkage against the ‘L’ bracket. It’s obviously putting pressure on the valve at the ‘Rest’ position and limiting travel of the linkage. I think this is the key to the entire problem.

https://youtu.be/Qfe5KclSPkQ

I went ahead and pulled the valve body and disassembled. Everything looks good and all springs are present and accounted for. All pistons move freely.

Would y’all go ahead and bend the ‘L’ bracket back and check for free movement and reassemble? For grins I hooked up the TV rod to the trans with valve body removed and I get full articulation with no binding.

Here’s a closer look at the TV & L stop

https://youtu.be/6NRYD5EvOOA

I'm concerned that even bending this L won't give me the amount of travel I need without seriously distorting things. Thoughts?

Thanks,

[Habusailor]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I'm by no means a transmission expert but to me that bracket does not look bent. It is straight and parallel to the piston. Can it be rotated so as to contact the linkage at another spot or is it fixed in that position? Bending things that are straight just doesn't seem right to me.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

[Dominic Hide]

Don't try to bend the bracket, it looks fine as is. The piston does seem to be pushed out to far, the narrow part of the piston should not be visible outside of the main body. (compare to left valve body in earlier posted picture) I think that it has been assembled wrong. What was happening at the other end of that passage while you were pushing the piston in and out. I will take one apart tomorrow and take pictures for comparison.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

You are correct, but all of this will not happen with the TV rod disconnected unless the lever itself is actuated in some manner to arrive at correct TV pressure.

The trans assy has to see proper TV pressure to operate properly according to its' calibration(s). You would/could fine tune and modify from that point. The same with a vacuum modulator valve, it is adjustable.

Or am I off on an incorrect tangent?

You are correct on everything but minimum pressure. Minimum pressure is when the TV valve is extended fully against it stop. With the linkage at rest or removed the valve will be against its stop due to spring pressure. The stop is not adjustable so minimum pressure is not adjustable. Then when the throttle is applied the rod and lever moves the valve in increasing the TV pressure, This pressure is adjustable by lengthening or shortening the rod.
The original posters problem was the shift points are too high and too firm which is caused by TV pressure being too high at minimum throttle. With the rod disconnected something is keeping the valve from extending far enough to lower the pressure enough for a proper shift speed and feel. Either a binding lever or a bent TV valve stop. The binding lever can be detected by feel, spring pressure one way and a solid stop the other.
I 'm thinking the L shaped stop bracket is bent in increasing minimum pressure.


Bill

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Habusailor

I'm by no means a transmission expert but to me that bracket does not look bent. It is straight and parallel to the piston. Can it be rotated so as to contact the linkage at another spot or is it fixed in that position? Bending things that are straight just doesn't seem right to me.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

Please disregard this post I tried to delete.
Bill That picture is for reference only, not the original posers valve body.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

Ok, got the pan off and took at look at things. Made another video showing the TV linkage against the ‘L’ bracket. It’s obviously putting pressure on the valve at the ‘Rest’ position and limiting travel of the linkage. I think this is the key to the entire problem.

https://youtu.be/Qfe5KclSPkQ

I went ahead and pulled the valve body and disassembled. Everything looks good and all springs are present and accounted for. All pistons move freely.

Would y’all go ahead and bend the ‘L’ bracket back and check for free movement and reassemble? For grins I hooked up the TV rod to the trans with valve body removed and I get full articulation with no binding.

Here’s a closer look at the TV & L stop

https://youtu.be/6NRYD5EvOOA

I'm concerned that even bending this L won't give me the amount of travel I need without seriously distorting things. Thoughts?

Thanks,

The bracket doesn't look bent. What about the spring and valve ahead of that valve, does it protrude out other end when fully depressed ?
Bill

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

You are correct ...

Bill

Well, not actually. I did not understand the OP as actually being in a diagnostic sequence.

[yblock57]

I did not bend the L bracket. Didn't feel right as others have noted. Didn't look like that was the actual issue.

After several of y'all pointed out and I initially missed, the back side of the throttle valve was NOT moving freely. It was being stopped by the back cover plate that had a small protrusion just barely covering the edge of the TV bore, thus creating a hard stop on the valve. Pics Dominic posted earlier in this thread clearly show the TV protruding out the backside of the bore. Mine was not. Apologies on the videos. I accidentally stopped in between showing the issue.

https://youtu.be/VVfgFdubxhs

https://youtu.be/yZUT4PGkFKU

I don't have an explanation on why that back cover plate was interfering with the valve, but I went ahead and filed it down to get the clearance I needed. It only goes on one-way so no way it could've been flipped or put on backwards. Now it operates with MUCH more movement than before. I suspect this will translate into the additional articulation I need to get the linkage set correctly and have full throttle without binding.

https://youtu.be/8Rr5ZH-up_w

I'll be sure and check movement of everything when I reinstall the valve body and before the pan goes back on. If anyone has any additional thoughts or ideas on what I should look at while the pan's off, I'm all ears!

I'll be setting the TV rod using my pressure gauge when it gets to that point. I want to verify this gets me back into the ranges shown in the FOM shop manual.

This has been a great learning experience. I can't thank everyone enough who's chimed in with all the help and suggestions. Very much appreciated! I'll be sure and post my findings.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

I did not bend the L bracket. Didn't feel right as others have noted. Didn't look like that was the actual issue.

After several of y'all pointed out and I initially missed, the back side of the throttle valve was NOT moving freely. It was being stopped by the back cover plate that had a small protrusion just barely covering the edge of the TV bore, thus creating a hard stop on the valve. Pics Dominic posted earlier in this thread clearly show the TV protruding out the backside of the bore. Mine was not. Apologies on the videos. I accidentally stopped in between showing the issue.

https://youtu.be/VVfgFdubxhs

https://youtu.be/yZUT4PGkFKU

I don't have an explanation on why that back cover plate was interfering with the valve, but I went ahead and filed it down to get the clearance I needed. It only goes on one-way so no way it could've been flipped or put on backwards. Now it operates with MUCH more movement than before. I suspect this will translate into the additional articulation I need to get the linkage set correctly and have full throttle without binding.

https://youtu.be/8Rr5ZH-up_w

I'll be sure and check movement of everything when I reinstall the valve body and before the pan goes back on. If anyone has any additional thoughts or ideas on what I should look at while the pan's off, I'm all ears!

I'll be setting the TV rod using my pressure gauge when it gets to that point. I want to verify this gets me back into the ranges shown in the FOM shop manual.

This has been a great learning experience. I can't thank everyone enough who's chimed in with all the help and suggestions. Very much appreciated! I'll be sure and post my findings.

If you look close at Dominic's picture on the right the plate is supposed to go between the first and second lands on the valve. The first land is on the outside as pictured and the plate will stop the second land from coming out as shown by the wear marks on the plate. Hopefully you didn't file too much off.
l
I should add that the plate fits between the first and second lands and limits the travel both ways. It keeps the second land from coming out and keeps the first land from going back in to far. By removing the edge of the plate it can't limit the travel as designed. Your third video shows this as the first land can go in past the plate. I would get another plate so it can limit the travel.
Bill

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

If you look close at Dominic's picture on the right the plate is supposed to go between the first and second lands on the valve. The first land is on the outside as pictured and the plate will stop the second land from coming out as shown by the wear marks on the plate. Hopefully you didn't file too much off.
Bill

Oops. I did file it off. Now it slides completely through. I wish I'd known that's how it was supposed to work.

Dad has an extra valve body at the house that Should have that piece intact that I can grab.

If I did install it the way it is now, I'm guessing it would get stuck? Possibly too low line pressure?

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

Oops. I did file it off. Now it slides completely through. I wish I'd known that's how it was supposed to work.

Dad has an extra valve body at the house that Should have that piece intact that I can grab.

If I did install it the way it is now, I'm guessing it would get stuck? Possibly too low line pressure?

TV pressure not line pressure.
Bill

[yblock57]

It would help if I'd read closer in the book where it mentioned that. Amateur mistake.

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

It would help if I'd read closer in the book where it mentioned that. Amateur mistake.

That's how we learn, I've made a lot of them.

[rotorwrench]

I'm more used to the old ones but something doesn't look right there. The book I have for the old Merc-O-Matic shows that their are the two valves there in that same bore. The one on the throttle control shaft side is the kick-down valve and it pushes the throttle valve through a straight coil spring on that side. There is a tool to bend that stop but I don't think that is the problem. On the other side where the throttle valve protrudes out, I'm used to seeing a leaf spring on the plate there. The plate that I'm used to actually has a leaf spring that controls how far the throttle valve can protrude there but also limits it on how far it can go back in the bore. Yours not only doesn't have the leaf spring but it is stopping the valve from moving farther out. Something has to be there the keep it from moving out too far and it appears to be missing that spring. Take a good look at the photos of the other valve body and you will see the leaf spring there. The valve should protrude beyond that plate and make contact with the spring.

[yblock57]

While I'm waiting on my valve body part, I wanted to try to get the linkage set the best possible by the book. I can't get the accelerator pedal height up past 3" and the book calls for 4 7/8" on a '57 thunderbird.

As a consequence of this, when you floor the pedal, you do not get full throttle engagement. When you work the 'grasshopper' under the hood by hand to full throttle, the rod pops out of the back of the accelerator pedal. Obviously there's something wrong here.

I've locked the 'grasshopper' in place with the 1/4" drill bit and the threaded rod that sets the pedal height is extended as long as it will go. 3" is all I can get out of the adjustment.

I went ahead and removed the piece of linkage from the accelerator pedal that goes through the firewall and measured and took a few pics. If anyone has one I can compare mine to, that would be great. Not sure if the curve in it is correct or not — it doesn't appear bent to the naked eye. I don't want to flatten that curve in a vise if it is indeed correct and the problem is elsewhere. Tip to tip is 5 7/8"

Nothing else in the setup looks bent or twisted.

Thanks!

[scicala]

Whether it has the correct rod length from the pedal or not, is it possibble to twist/bend the rod rod that goes through the bell crank on the fire wall, so you can get the correct height off the floor for the pedal ? In other words, make the bottom of the rod/lever closer to the firewall where the pedal rod goes through. Just a thought.

Sal

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

. . .
I went ahead and removed the piece of linkage from the accelerator pedal that goes through the firewall and measured and took a few pics. If anyone has one I can compare mine to, that would be great. Not sure if the curve in it is correct or not — it doesn't appear bent to the naked eye. I don't want to flatten that curve in a vise if it is indeed correct and the problem is elsewhere. Tip to tip is 5 7/8"
Nothing else in the setup looks bent or twisted.
Thanks!

I measured the one out of my '57 and also got 5 & 7/8", maybe 15/16.
Also looked in two different restoration parts catalogs and the pedal rod (part # 9727) is the same for all three years, both auto and manual trans.

Not sure if or why it might too short but maybe it's the adjustable rod (yellow arrows) between the manifold bellcrank and the double L shaped throttle lever on the firewall.
With the drill bit thru that alignment hole, if the threaded adjustment rod were longer then it would push the gas pedal higher off the floor.
.

[yblock57]

Sal & dmsfrr —

Thanks very much for the input. Good to know one piece of the puzzle is ok.

I had thought about 'tweaking' the firewall piece and may end up having to do it. Before I do, I wanted to see if anyone had another threaded rod (dmsfrr referred to) that adjusts pedal height that I could compare mine to. Went ahead and removed and got some measurements.

Overall length (fully extended) is 5 1/4". This only gives me approx. 3" pedal height. If all the catalogs list this for 55-57 then maybe this is the correct one. Just wanted to verify before I bend things.


Again, thanks for everyone's help. This is one of the best source of info on these cars out there.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

Sal & dmsfrr —
Thanks very much for the input. Good to know one piece of the puzzle is ok.

I had thought about 'tweaking' the firewall piece and may end up having to do it. Before I do, I wanted to see if anyone had another threaded rod (dmsfrr referred to) that adjusts pedal height that I could compare mine to. Went ahead and removed and got some measurements.

Overall length (fully extended) is 5 1/4". This only gives me approx. 3" pedal height. If all the catalogs list this for 55-57 then maybe this is the correct one. Just wanted to verify before I bend things.

Again, thanks for everyone's help. This is one of the best source of info on these cars out there.

That threaded pedal adjustment link at the back of the 'mousetrap' comes in three versions, for '55, '56 and '57.

Part # 9784 - A, B or C for the three different years, in that order. The '55 version may be the longest?
They are on page 33 in a Casco catalog, or page 70 in the Hill's catalog. $50 to $60 depending on the version.
I don't understand why a part that appears to be and should be 'correct' won't give you the adjustment needed. Perhaps you can create a temporary part with a 'better' length and see if it works before doing something more permanent.
If there's a local hot-rod shop near you they may have some pieces to work from.

Mine is the same way, that adjustment link seems too short. But I wrote it off to having '57 linkage, intake manif & carburetor in a '55 that originally used different hardware. So I re-created a slightly different version of the adjustment procedure, without using the 1/4 inch 'alignment tool', drill bit, screwdriver shaft, etc.
So far it's working much better than it was. (but I have nothing else to compare it to)

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Mine is the same way, that adjustment link seems too short. But I wrote it off to having '57 linkage, intake manif & carburetor in a '55 that originally used different hardware. So I re-created a slightly different version of the adjustment procedure, without using the 1/4 inch 'alignment tool', drill bit, screwdriver shaft, etc.

So far it's working much better than it was. (but I have nothing else to compare it to)

Key statement above ...

Plus, if the trans is not original, it may take different pressure readings at different times (calibration) (using full diagnostic sequence(s). One needs to positively ID the TRANS and if anything varies consider a previous repair/modification may alter the test results.

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

That threaded pedal adjustment link at the back of the 'mousetrap' comes in three versions, for '55, '56 and '57.

Part # 9784 - A, B or C for the three different years, in that order. The '55 version may be the longest?
They are on page 33 in a Casco catalog, or page 70 in the Hill's catalog. $50 to $60 depending on the version.
I don't understand why a part that appears to be and should be 'correct' won't give you the adjustment needed. Perhaps you can create a temporary part with a 'better' length and see if it works before doing something more permanent.
If there's a local hot-rod shop near you they may have some pieces to work from.

Mine is the same way, that adjustment link seems too short. But I wrote it off to having '57 linkage, intake manif & carburetor in a '55 that originally used different hardware. So I re-created a slightly different version of the adjustment procedure, without using the 1/4 inch 'alignment tool', drill bit, screwdriver shaft, etc.
So far it's working much better than it was. (but I have nothing else to compare it to)

dmsfrr — Good info, thanks. What did you do in your adjustment steps to get things working right? Did you get a different throttle rod going to the carb? Did you extend the pedal rod as long as it would go?

I have a friend with a '57 bird who's going to drive over this afternoon and let me measure the pieces in question, so that should help shed some light on this stuff.

Thanks

[dmsfrr]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by yblock57

dmsfrr — Good info, thanks. What did you do in your adjustment steps to get things working right? Did you get a different throttle rod going to the carb? Did you extend the pedal rod as long as it would go?
I have a friend with a '57 bird who's going to drive over this afternoon and let me measure the pieces in question, so that should help shed some light on this stuff.
Thanks

Ok... this certainly isn't the official way and will not stay how it currently is when a better idea comes along...
It's just what I've done so far, because the way it was before was really awful and I didn't want to cook the transmission.

I disconnected both the adjustable rod to the carburetor throttle lever and the clevis at the top of the transmission rod from the throttle bell-crank assembly that mounts to the intake manifold.
This allowed the throttle return spring to press the bottom end of the firewall throttle lever against the firewall (photo 1) raising the pedal as high off the floor as it would go. (approx 4" from the firewall to the top front side of the pedal)
The spot on the firewall where the lever hits is about 2 inches above the hole where the pedal rod comes thru the firewall. I got a 1/4" thick x 3/4" dia self-stick felt pad and stuck it to that spot on the firewall so the throttle lever can rest against it.

The (oem '55 ?) throttle position rod down to the transmission may also be short on this car so I adjusted the pedal-position threaded link at the back of the bell-crank (photo 2) to let the lever coming thru the bell-crank assembly reach the rod when it's carefully pulled all the way up. (photo 3)

If I'm not mistaken, the 'book' procedure on connecting the adjustable clevis at the top of the transmission rod has you carefully pull the rod up until it stops then adjust the clevis to align with its lever on the throttle bell-crank, then unscrew it an additional three full turns and connect it. So I did that. The clevis adjustment can be fine-tuned from this generic starting position.

Then making sure the fast idle cam was disengaged, I installed the threaded rod from the throttle lever on the carb back to the bell-crank assembly, adjusting its length as needed, plus about one extra turn in length.
Somehow it all fit and seems to work much better than before, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Something I have not tried yet is to force a downshift by flooring the gas pedal, I need to be more comfortable with how well it's working so far. (but haven't driven the car since March when lock-downs started happening and it's already overdue for an oil change)

[yblock57]

dmsfrr —

Thanks for the detailed description. That helped me a lot.

After looking at pics on here and my friend's '57 and comparing setups, the conclusion was my double-L rod on the firewall was bent... slightly. I removed it from the car and mounted it on my workbench. Was expecting a battle to get any bending action, but it moved surprisingly easy.

Got lucky as I bent it it just the right amount the first time. Verified 4 7/8" pedal height with the 1/4 drill bit in the bell crank. Adjusted the rod going to the carburetor and presto — everything works as advertised. No more binding, and I get full throttle with the pedal — at least everything up top is moving the way it should... we'll see how it goes with the throttle rod once the valve body goes back in.

https://youtu.be/3yTgu1UNZI4

Now it's just a matter of getting the valve body back in the transmission and verifying throttle rod travel and getting pressures set correctly.

Thanks to all who've chimed in and helped. I'll keep y'all posted on how this turns out.

[dmsfrr]

Great, glad I could help a little.

After just now double checking the actual pedal height in this car against the diagram on page 2-89 of the '57 shop manual it seems the pedal may be a bit too high.
Figure 105 shows a distance of 3.10" from the bump-stop on the floor to the 'shoe leather' surface of the gas pedal, although the diagrams look to be for the 'full-sized' cars not T-bird. (photo 3 in reply #75 below)
Measuring that distance I got approx 3 & 5/8", so the pedal could be about 1/2" too high, assuming it matters at this point.

In an earlier comment in this thread you mentioned "The only thing I couldn't get in spec was the accelerator pedal height. Book says '57 thunderbird should be 4 7/8". ..."
Since the diagrams in the shop manual I have may not have the correct T-Bird diagrams, which book did that measurement come from? So I can do a better job on this one next time I tinker with it.
.

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Great, glad I could help a little.

After just now double checking the actual pedal height in this car against the diagram on page 2-89 of the '57 shop manual it seems the pedal may be a bit too high.
Figure 105 shows a distance of 3.10" from the bump-stop on the floor to the 'shoe leather' surface of the gas pedal, although the diagrams look to be for the 'full-sized' cars not T-bird.
Measuring that distance I got approx 3 & 5/8", so the pedal could be about 1/2" too high, assuming it matters at this point.

In an earlier comment in this thread you mentioned "The only thing I couldn't get in spec was the accelerator pedal height. Book says '57 thunderbird should be 4 7/8". ..."
Since the diagrams in the shop manual I have may not have the correct T-Bird diagrams, which book did that measurement come from? So I can do a better job on this one next time I tinker with it.

It is confusing as 4 7/8" is a very high pedal. It's almost standing up straight. Since I had to bend my bracket anyway, I tried to get it as close to what the book says as possible.

My buddy's thunderbird's pedal was also only about 3 1/2" off the floor — for what it's worth.

Here's a pic of the table showing different pedal heights in the 56/57 fordomatic manual.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

It is confusing as 4 7/8" is a very high pedal. It's almost standing up straight. Since I had to bend my bracket anyway, I tried to get it as close to what the book says as possible.

My buddy's thunderbird's pedal was also only about 3 1/2" off the floor — for what it's worth.

Here's a pic of the table showing different pedal heights in the 56/57 fordomatic manual.

Is there a diagram that goes with measurements table? Showing the points the measurements relate to?
Thanks

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

Is there a diagram that goes with measurements table? Showing the points the measurements relate to?
Thanks

It doesn't get too specific other than saying "measure from the floor pan to the pedal." This is the only diagram that shows a typical setup (with overdrive).

I measured from the lowest point on the floor to the highest point on the pedal to get my 4 7/8".

Hope this helps.

[KULTULZ]

There should be a throttle stop on the toeboard -

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

There should be a throttle stop on the toeboard -

I saw that illustration in the manual but am not sure what 'stop' there would be. All 4 of my cars do not have anything under the pedal — just carpet.

Have a pic of the stop in question?

Thanks.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by yblock57

I saw that illustration in the manual but am not sure what 'stop' there would be. All 4 of my cars do not have anything under the pedal — just carpet.

Have a pic of the stop in question?

Thanks.

Sorry, no I do not.

But dmsfrr does -

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

I saw that illustration in the manual but am not sure what 'stop' there would be. All 4 of my cars do not have anything under the pedal — just carpet.

Have a pic of the stop in question?
Thanks.

A couple dirty 'before' pictures.
There's a bump in the floor under the pedal (photo 1) for mounting the overdrive kickdown switch (photo 2) if the car has a 3spd OD trans. It's about 5/8 high. I'm guessing we can ignore it???
.

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

A couple dirty 'before' pictures. There's a bump in the floor under the pedal for mounting the overdrive kickdown switch, if the car has a 3spd OD trans.
.

Thanks, dmsfrr. Pics help a ton.

Looks like you had your car torn down pretty far. Is it a 292 or 312?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

Thanks, dmsfrr. Pics help a ton.
Looks like you had your car torn down pretty far. Is it a 292 or 312?

You're welcome. Photos are easy and no problem...

There are two T-Birds, a not-quite-original red '55 and a nearly original yellow '57, with a black engine compartment.
The '55 has a rebuilt 6 month newer 292 (since the original engine was gone) with '58 heads & '57 intake, carb, distributor and '55 air cooled Fordomatic transmission... also rebuilt front & rear suspension. The car is mostly done with the major exception of the dash gauges needing to be repaired/replaced.

The '57 I semi-recently bought and it's currently all torn down to be repainted and have the original 312 engine and 3spd OD trans rebuilt.

There are a few photos at this link....
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/album.php?u=24155
.

[Daves55Sedan]

Lets approach it this way, without the need to bend anything.
According to the '56 Fordomatic shop manual, your pedal height should be 4-1/4" from the floor (check your '57 Fordomatic shop manual to make sure it is the same).
DISCONNECT the carburator connecting link from the carburator and DISCONNECT one end of the accellerator connecting link from the bellcrank on the intake manifold.
Doing this allows your bellcrank to be in a floating position.
Take a 1/4" diameter doll-pin or drill bit and insert it through alignment holes in the bellcrank to lock the bellcrank in idle position.
Prop the gas pedal up off the floor with wooden blocks and wedges until it is at the specified height off the floor. Pulling the gas pedal further off the floor will pull the firewall bellcrank arm closer to the firewall. (You WANT that to happen).
NOWWWW, inspect your accellerator connecting link and see how much you need to modify its LENGTH. It is adjustable by loosening the locknut on the threaded rod in the middle. Rotate the threaded rod and fit (as many times as needed) to get the end clevis of the accellerator connecting link to go into the bellcrank freely. When that has been accomplished, tighten the locknut on the treaded rod and re-install the clip that holds the clevis to the bellcrank.
Nowwww go to the carburator connecting link and adjust it (similar to the way the accell link is adjusted) so that the length of the assembly places your carburator at idle speed. NOTICE, if the carb has a Fordomatic anti-stall dashpot, you MUST hold the carb throttle lever at full stop closed while adjusting the carb link to the proper length to achieve idle speed.
Pull the drill bit out of the intake bellcrank and watch to see if the holes become mis-aligned. If they do, you may have a worn bellcrank and need further adjustment.
Now you are ready to adjust the Fordomatic passing gear link in accordance with the Fordomatic shop manual. There should be no need to bend anything.
Yes the rod connected to the back of the gas pedal is factory curved due to the fulcrum point being so far away from the hole thru the firewall. If you attempt to straighten the gas pedal rod, it will likely SCRAPE against the hole through the firewall.
When all finished, make sure you remove the temporary drill bit from the intake bellcrank and remove the wooden blocks under the gas pedal.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by yblock57

I saw that illustration in the manual but am not sure what 'stop' there would be. All 4 of my cars do not have anything under the pedal — just carpet.

Have a pic of the stop in question?

Thanks.

dmsfrr shows the photo of the stop. This is where you would measure from for pedal height.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

Now you are ready to adjust the Fordomatic passing gear link in accordance with the Fordomatic shop manual.

There is no PASSING GEAR LINK. It is called a THROTTLE CONTROL VALVE ROD. Everything operates off this rod.

[yblock57]

Daves55Sedan —

I should've been more clear in my original post. This setup had linkage issues due to the throttle valve being installed wrong in the valve body which limited the movement of the throttle rod. Dad drove the car before we realized what was going on and inadvertently floored the accelerator to get the trans to kick-down. This caused the throttle to become stuck in the wide-open position (or close to wide-open). He had to turn the key off. Luckily no damage to the engine or car, but it bent the threaded end of the throttle rod and unbeknown to us, the 'double-L' piece on the firewall.

Once I ascertained all my pieces were correct for a '57 D model (measured a friend's correct setup), I pulled the 'double-L' piece out of the car and proceeded to carefully bend it in the direction if needed to go. The ease at which it bent left no doubt in my mind that this was the key to all this linkage mess.

Once it went back in, the shop manual procedures were followed and this time everything went exactly as outlined.

Appreciate everyone's input here. I should be putting it all back together sometime next week and will post my results. Fingers crossed!

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by yblock57

Daves55Sedan —

I should've been more clear in my original post. This setup had linkage issues due to the throttle valve being installed wrong in the valve body which limited the movement of the throttle rod. Dad drove the car before we realized what was going on and inadvertently floored the accelerator to get the trans to kick-down. This caused the throttle to become stuck in the wide-open position (or close to wide-open). He had to turn the key off. Luckily no damage to the engine or car, but it bent the threaded end of the throttle rod and unbeknown to us, the 'double-L' piece on the firewall.

Once I ascertained all my pieces were correct for a '57 D model (measured a friend's correct setup), I pulled the 'double-L' piece out of the car and proceeded to carefully bend it in the direction if needed to go. The ease at which it bent left no doubt in my mind that this was the key to all this linkage mess.

Once it went back in, the shop manual procedures were followed and this time everything went exactly as outlined.

Appreciate everyone's input here. I should be putting it all back together sometime next week and will post my results. Fingers crossed!

How did it work out?
Bill

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

How did it work out?
Bill

Hey Bill. Thanks for checking in. The valve body was reinstalled and trans closed back up. Was able to get all linkage adjusted correctly per the manual.

Went ahead and pulled the pinion seal to replace as it was leaking badly. Car is still on stands while I wait for parts. Addressing several other things at the same time. Seems like a never ending list!

Will update when I get it back on the ground. Fingers crossed [emoji1695]

Thanks

[Gene F]

How did the pinion seal project go? How did you do that? Seems like there are two seals. Did you order them both, or how do you know which one you need, and where did you get it?

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by Gene F

How did the pinion seal project go? How did you do that? Seems like there are two seals. Did you order them both, or how do you know which one you need, and where did you get it?

Hey Gene —

I ordered both seals — outer pinion seal and square cut pinion support O-ring. I also ordered a crush sleeve eliminator kit and new pinion nut.

Parts came from multiple places as I tend to shop around for the best deals. Outer pinion seal is an SKF neoprene #18276 that I got from of all places Home Depot for $9.24 shipped! Thunderbird suppliers are asking $86 for that same seal! The pinion support O-ring is a ford part from eBay #B7A-4669-B for $15.95 shipped. The rest of the parts came from bronco graveyard — crush sleeve eliminator kit #22293 $19 & pinion nut #22294 $4.

Hopefully get the stuff next week. Been cleaning up parts in preparation.

[KULTULZ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by yblock57

The rest of the parts came from bronco graveyard — crush sleeve eliminator kit #22293 $19 & pinion nut #22294 $4.

Did not know a commercial kit was available. Good choice.

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Did not know a commercial kit was available. Good choice.

Thanks. I didn’t know of this kit either. Was pointed to it by a very knowledgeable fellow on the yblocksforever forum [emoji1303]

[Gene F]

So is this installed now? How did you make out?

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by Gene F

So is this installed now? How did you make out?

Not yet. Hopefully this coming week.

[yblock57]

Update: Success!

Just got back from test driving the 'bird. It's like driving a different car now. Everything behaves like it should. Talk about a relief!

Did the pressure test before taking it off the stands (as several of you mentioned) and had to lengthen the rod several turns to get the pressure up to specs. If you baby it down the street, it'll shift about 19 mph. If you drive lightly down a residential street, about 22-23 mph. All relative on throttle pressure — just like the book says. Feels like it's about where it needs to be.

The accelerator is so much lighter feeling and easier to hold. Before it was fatiguing after a while cruising down the highway (due to binding).

Wanted to thank everyone who answered on this thread and shared their knowledge. It is GREATLY appreciated. Everything I've learned during this fiasco is going in the vault and should hopefully help me or someone else in the future. This is a great site and the level of knowledge and helpfulness is very humbling. Thanks again for helping get this old 'bird back on the road!

[scicala]

I'm glad you got it all figured out and fixed. Enjoy the car.
Also, thanks for posting the final results.

Sal

[Gene F]

Glad it's fixed. That TV rod length is a fussy thing.

[yblock57]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Glad it's fixed. That TV rod length is a fussy thing.

It sure is. Never realized until things went haywire. Glad it ended up being fixable in the car instead of having to pull everything back out again!

Originally Posted by scicala

I'm glad you got it all figured out and fixed. Enjoy the car.
Also, thanks for posting the final results.

Sal

Appreciate it! Didn't want to leave the thread unresolved. Maybe this can help someone else out someday.