Not that original fan again!

[Model "A" Fords]

It seems most agree the original fan is dangerous! The standards recognize only the steel fan and downgrade anything else. The judging standards are continually being scrutinized and updated as original documentation surfaces. Judging is tied to the car as it came off the assembly line and I hope it remains that way.
Could a cosmetically restored original fan be displayed separate from the car as the tool kit currently is judged? An Aluminum fan could be allowed for safe operation but only the original judged. Best of both worlds?

[California Travieso]

Your suggestion probably makes too much sense for it to be allowed. I’ve never been to a show where they judge Model A’s, do they deduct points if you have two tail lights instead of one on the driver’s side?

David Serrano

[Synchro909]

If the judges insist on a steel fan, suggest to them that they do a close inspection while you rev the engine. I bet none of them put their head near it!!!

[Keith True]

I have no interest in judging either.I saw a short lived discussion years ago,suggesting just what you are.It would be a real slap in the face to guys that spent countless hours,and years of waiting,to find the nice correct fan,only to have the next guy get awarded full points in the area for doing virtually nothing.The standards set a level playing field,either adhere to those rules or take the deductions and move on.A man in Hampton N.H. was doing a late 31 68C in the late 80's,he flew to the midwest to get an NOS fan and a set of 4 NOS brake drums and hubs.He was pretty livid when people were suggesting that they should get the same points awarded for their replacement parts as him after he stepped up to the plate to be correct.

[Gary Karr]

Currently in MARC fine point judging, if you show your vehicle with a two-blade aluminum fan, you will not receive full points and will receive a deduction as it is a reproduction part.

[BillCNC]

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Why not swap out fans at the show if your wanting to retain the lost points?

Regards
Bill

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

Why not swap out fans at the show if your wanting to retain the lost points?

Regards
Bill

Novel idea!

[wrndln]

Originally Posted by BillCNC
Why not swap out fans at the show if your wanting to retain the lost points?

Regards
Bill


I am sure this was never done before!!!
Rusty Nelson

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

This has been a source of contention for as long as I have been involved in Fine-point. Since David's response was the first, let me give my opinion on his first before I answer Bob's.

David, the intent of Fine Point adjudication is to assist an owner in verification of, -and the validation of making a Ford Model-A look exactly as it did when it was just manufactured. The benchmark for this adjudication is the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards. While this book's content does not represent how EVERY Model-A was manufactured, is is the 'rule book' or standard by which every vehicle will be compared to on a particular day. If a Fine Point competition entrant can document and prove their vehicle was manufactured differently than what information is given in the book, then a Variance can be asked for by the Judging Standards Committee. At that point, items such as two tail lights can be allowed without deduction. One other possibility is the participant can ask for a variance be given on merits that the second tail lamp was installed in the interest of safety. Now the only way the second lamp can be installed without deduction is the entire lamp, wiring, and stand must be 100% authentic and accurately restored.


Since I am going in order..... As for standing next to an original fan that has been properly restored, I would do it on one of mine, -however I would not stand there if it were a fan that I know nothing about the history of. I just want to make sure that my friend from 'down-under' and others realize that not all original fans are dangerous as this myth often implies.

Keith is correct about some people are more thorough in their quest for authenticity, and should be properly rewarded for such efforts.

Now.......... My issue with the Fine Point adjudication is I feel the main focus of what this was intended to be has been lost to a 'braggadocios game' of "Points'. Instead of owners displaying their vehicles where a group of judges are proactively trying to assist someone of bettering their vehicle, it is my opinion this has become a political game of one-upsmanship. (My car scored 496. Mine scored 497 so my car is better than so-&-so's car, etc., etc.) The issue with this silly 'game' is the point system IMHO. We as participants of F/P have seemingly placed a higher priority on points than the original mission-statement of either national club. I have stated it all along that the points need to stay confidential, and lets go back to the focus of bettering the vehicles (-i.e.: striving to make them more authentic).

I can say from experience that I have noticed over the years where the majority of Fine Point participants on any given year are usually disappointed when they learn of their score. The irony is there is one car club that has their membership turning out for shows in record numbers. This club's membership is known for participating multiple times in judging car shows, -often with multiple cars. The irony is rarely is their a disgruntled participant in their adjudication process. Their reasoning (-and they will tell you this) is because they do not release the scores to the car owners nor the public. They only hand out judging sheets that list where deficiencies were found. Their system seems to work, ...yet based on the lack of participation by percentages of either national club, the fine-point participation area continues to lack by %. So Bob, my view on your question is, show it with whichever fan you want on your vehicle while knowing that if you receive a 5 point deduction for a reproduction fan, then you really know what your car should score with the proper fan installed. Otherwise, it appears you are in it for the points instead of how you would want your restoration to be.

[Rene R]

Terrific overview, Brent. Thanks for that.

[Model "A" Fords]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

This has been a source of contention for as long as I have been involved in Fine-point. Since David's response was the first, let me give my opinion on his first before I answer Bob's.

David, the intent of Fine Point adjudication is to assist an owner in verification of, -and the validation of making a Ford Model-A look exactly as it did when it was just manufactured. The benchmark for this adjudication is the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards. While this book's content does not represent how EVERY Model-A was manufactured, it is the 'rule book' or standard by which every vehicle will be compared to on a particular day. If a Fine Point competition entrant can document and prove their vehicle was manufactured differently than what information is given in the book, then a Variance can be asked for by the Judging Standards Committee. At that point, items such as two tail lights can be allowed without deduction. One other possibility is the participant can ask for a variance be given on merits that the second tail lamp was installed in the interest of safety. Now the only way the second lamp can be installed without deduction is the entire lamp, wiring, and stand must be 100% authentic and accurately restored.


Since I am going in order..... As for standing next to an original fan that has been properly restored, I would do it on one of mine, -however I would not stand there if it were a fan that I know nothing about the history of. I just want to make sure that my friend from 'down-under' and others realize that not all original fans are dangerous as this myth often implies.

Keith is correct about some people are more thorough in their quest for authenticity, and should be properly rewarded for such efforts.

Now.......... My issue with the Fine Point adjudication is I feel the main focus of what this was intended to be has been lost to a 'braggadocios game' of "Points'. Instead of owners displaying their vehicles where a group of judges are proactively trying to assist someone of bettering their vehicle, it is my opinion this has become a political game of one-upsmanship. (My car scored 496. Mine scored 497 so my car is better than so-&-so's car, etc., etc.) The issue with this silly 'game' is the point system IMHO. We as participants of F/P have seemingly placed a higher priority on points than the original mission-statement of either national club. I have stated it all along that the points need to stay confidential, and lets go back to the focus of bettering the vehicles (-i.e.: striving to make them more authentic).

I can say from experience that I have noticed over the years where the majority of Fine Point participants on any given year are usually disappointed when they learn of their score. The irony is there is one car club that has their membership turning out for shows in record numbers. This club's membership is known for participating multiple times in judging car shows, -often with multiple cars. The irony is rarely is their a disgruntled participant in their adjudication process. Their reasoning (-and they will tell you this) is because they do not release the scores to the car owners nor the public. They only hand out judging sheets that list where deficiencies were found. Their system seems to work, ...yet based on the lack of participation by percentages of either national club, the fine-point participation area continues to lack by %. So Bob, my view on your question is, show it with whichever fan you want on your vehicle while knowing that if you receive a 5 point deduction for a reproduction fan, then you really know what your car should score with the proper fan installed. Otherwise, it appears you are in it for the points instead of how you would want your restoration to be.

Brent, always a pleasure to hear what your experience has to offer! I agree that the purpose of the standards are to help put the car back to as just manufactured.
I thought a variance would be the answer as a failed fan is devastating but see your point regarding factory correct and agree with you. If you don't have an original it leaves the option of substituting with a safe fan and accept deductions.
Aluminum fans are the answer to the safety and looks nice only lacks an accurate original shape. I've studied original fans for some time with the idea that a new one could be built that looks the part while being reliable. It has been a fun journey. Brent, in the meantime I'm interested with your own fan restorations. What are you doing to the original fans that give you the confidence of their reliability?

As far as points are concerned, they are used to establish originality therefore my goal of 500 points. I would be good with no score and just receiving a sheet showing deficiencies. I would still work towards originality and be ready to receive the truth. I like the idea of originality and not to be judged against the car next to me.

Enjoy your Model A Ford how ever "you" imagine it! The idea is to have fun.

[Bud]

For those looking for original fans for fine point: I have several fans that one of our past club members Mal Colby restored in the 1980's. Mal would take the fan completely apart, remove all the rust, repair what was needed, reassemble them, correct any problems with the blades, and balance them. I do not plan to run these fans as I only have one car and it has a 6 blade plastic fan (I know, it's ugly). But if someone is interested in any of these restored fans, please contact me. Thanks.

[rotorwrench]

A friend of mine used to work for an industrial and FAA approved non destructive testing shop. He performed and assisted in a lot of annual & bi-annual NDT inspections on specific aircraft components such as Boeing B29 Fi-Fi's engine mounts and several old D18 Twin Beech wing spars, as well as others, so that these aircraft could continue to fly. These components have e a history of failures so the FAA mandated the recurrent inspections.

The OEM formed & welded two blade fans could be inspected in similar fashion by x-ray or other methods to insure serviceability. A person generally has to prep a car for fine point judging anyway so the generator, fan belt, coolant hoses and other deterioration affected parts can be swapped out from the driver quality parts. The fan would be just another item on the list.

I don't show my cars as much as drive them so I don't have to worry about all that stuff.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Model "A" Fords

Aluminum fans are the answer to the safety and looks nice only lacks an accurate original shape. I've studied original fans for some time with the idea that a new one could be built that looks the part while being reliable. It has been a fun journey. Brent, in the meantime I'm interested with your own fan restorations. What are you doing to the original fans that give you the confidence of their reliability?

As far as points are concerned, they are used to establish originality therefore my goal of 500 points. I would be good with no score and just receiving a sheet showing deficiencies. I would still work towards originality and be ready to receive the truth. I like the idea of originality and not to be judged against the car next to me.

Bob, I will start by addressing your 2nd point first.
To begin with, I never understood the mindset of the founding fathers of the "5000-to-500 Point System" other than when you round a number, it potentially makes a vehicle look like it scored better. What I am speaking of is the score we tell everyone is based on a 500 point system, ...however on 'judgment day', the vehicle is evaluated using 5,000 points. So in reality if a vehicle scores 4,976 points (-theoretically there were 24 points deducted for deficiencies) however on Awards Night, we tell people that car scored a 498, ...only 2 points off of a perfect score. Kinda misleading IMO.

In my thinking, by only using the points system to evaluate for Best of Show, -AND by never revealing any scores outside of the view of the Chief Judge and the points tabulator(s), it truly allows each vehicle to compete against the Judging Sheet only without comparisons and/or egos getting involved. Additionally, it takes away the ability for people that compare vehicles that were evaluated on different years yet say one is more/less authentic than one that was judged on a different year. Just because one scored 496 on one year vs. someone else's vehicle maybe scoring 498 on a different year does not mean the 498 vehicle was more authentic. Think about it!

One other positive point (-at least from my perspective) about not revealing scores/points to the car owner is this opens the opportunity for each Team Captain and their team members to meet with each car owner after adjudication (-maybe the following day) to quickly discuss what deficiencies they evaluated/noted on that vehicle. This should be a great learning opportunity for each car owner if they truly are interested in bettering their vehicle. And, if during the conversation with the car owner an error in adjudication is discovered, at that point all the Team Captain needs to do is tell the car owner to strike that off of the sheet. No Harm, -No Foul!! Think about it, ...No points would ever need to be changed, -nor should meeting like this ever be a stressful time for the Adjudicators nor the car owners simply because points are not discussed. Heck, if anything, a Team Captain can tell the owner something like "It appeared this might be a reproduction part however we were not sure so we gave no deduction." Even if the team did make a deduction, the owner would never know nor have a reason to be upset. By no scoring numbers released, it also eliminates another issue that has really ticked-off car owners in the past. By eliminating the practice of revealing the vehicle's score, it eliminates the discomfort when a car owner wrongfully loses points on an erroneous deduction only to find out about it several weeks after the show has ended and the judges are no longer around to right the wrong.



About fan restoration....
These fans rarely had an issue during the first 25-30 years of their life. What changed is, they became bent from hands tugging on the blades during timing operations, or rust formed inside the two layers of metal, or?? where a culmination of these created an imbalance that often set-up harmonics for the fan blades.

To correct this, I drill the end of the outer blade to see if there is any rust powder inside. Media-blast and then soak the entire fan (inside & out) in Evapo-Rust to stop any new rust from forming. Use a wet-mag to inspect the fan hub for micro cracks. This is where the pressed fan blades are attached to the hub as this is where I find about 98% of them fatigue. If there is only one or two cracks, these can be fuse-welded by a competent welder. After all the liquid has been dried from inside, weld and metalfinish the inspection holes closed. Next, mount the fan onto a mandrel where it can be spun balanced. I purchased mine probably 10 years ago from the late Tom Wessenberg when he made a couple of static balancers. I adapted mine to a dynamic balancer. Removing weight from the entire tip is where I lighten them.

Contrary to what many may believe, most of the fans that break have been cracked for awhile. We see quite a few vehicles come in for service that have an original fan. Often times these are cars that are driven frequently and they will have a cracked fan but the owner had no clue. No telling how long it has been that way either!! While we always replace with new alloy fans, a properly restored fan will more than adequate to safely make it through Start & Idle, and survive the Mandatory Tour. Think about it, it is the high-speed RPMs that create the detrimental harmonics that cause these to fail yet 99% of these cars are driven very gingerly thru S&I and on the Mandatory Tour.

[Model "A" Fords]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Bob, I will start by addressing your 2nd point first.
To begin with, I never understood the mindset of the founding fathers of the "5000-to-500 Point System" other than when you round a number, it potentially makes a vehicle look like it scored better. What I am speaking of is the score we tell everyone is based on a 500 point system, ...however on 'judgment day', the vehicle is evaluated using 5,000 points. So in reality if a vehicle scores 4,976 points (-theoretically there were 24 points deducted for deficiencies) however on Awards Night, we tell people that car scored a 498, ...only 2 points off of a perfect score. Kinda misleading IMO.

In my thinking, by only using the points system to evaluate for Best of Show, -AND by never revealing any scores outside of the view of the Chief Judge and the points tabulator(s), it truly allows each vehicle to compete against the Judging Sheet only without comparisons and/or egos getting involved. Additionally, it takes away the ability for people that compare vehicles that were evaluated on different years yet say one is more/less authentic than one that was judged on a different year. Just because one scored 496 on one year vs. someone else's vehicle maybe scoring 498 on a different year does not mean the 498 vehicle was more authentic. Think about it!

One other positive point (-at least from my perspective) about not revealing scores/points to the car owner is this opens the opportunity for each Team Captain and their team members to meet with each car owner after adjudication (-maybe the following day) to quickly discuss what deficiencies they evaluated/noted on that vehicle. This should be a great learning opportunity for each car owner if they truly are interested in bettering their vehicle. And, if during the conversation with the car owner an error in adjudication is discovered, at that point all the Team Captain needs to do is tell the car owner to strike that off of the sheet. No Harm, -No Foul!! Think about it, ...No points would ever need to be changed, -nor should meeting like this ever be a stressful time for the Adjudicators nor the car owners simply because points are not discussed. Heck, if anything, a Team Captain can tell the owner something like "It appeared this might be a reproduction part however we were not sure so we gave no deduction." Even if the team did make a deduction, the owner would never know nor have a reason to be upset. By no scoring numbers released, it also eliminates another issue that has really ticked-off car owners in the past. By eliminating the practice of revealing the vehicle's score, it eliminates the discomfort when a car owner wrongfully loses points on an erroneous deduction only to find out about it several weeks after the show has ended and the judges are no longer around to right the wrong.



About fan restoration....
These fans rarely had an issue during the first 25-30 years of their life. What changed is, they became bent from hands tugging on the blades during timing operations, or rust formed inside the two layers of metal, or?? where a culmination of these created an imbalance that often set-up harmonics for the fan blades.

To correct this, I drill the end of the outer blade to see if there is any rust powder inside. Media-blast and then soak the entire fan (inside & out) in Evapo-Rust to stop any new rust from forming. Use a wet-mag to inspect the fan hub for micro cracks. This is where the pressed fan blades are attached to the hub as this is where I find about 98% of them fatigue. If there is only one or two cracks, these can be fuse-welded by a competent welder. After all the liquid has been dried from inside, weld and metalfinish the inspection holes closed. Next, mount the fan onto a mandrel where it can be spun balanced. I purchased mine probably 10 years ago from the late Tom Wessenberg when he made a couple of static balancers. I adapted mine to a dynamic balancer. Removing weight from the entire tip is where I lighten them.

Contrary to what many may believe, most of the fans that break have been cracked for awhile. We see quite a few vehicles come in for service that have an original fan. Often times these are cars that are driven frequently and they will have a cracked fan but the owner had no clue. No telling how long it has been that way either!! While we always replace with new alloy fans, a properly restored fan will more than adequate to safely make it through Start & Idle, and survive the Mandatory Tour. Think about it, it is the high-speed RPMs that create the detrimental harmonics that cause these to fail yet 99% of these cars are driven very gingerly thru S&I and on the Mandatory Tour.

Thanks for your insight Brent. I hadn't realized scoring had a 5,000 point judging system with a 500 point presentation score. I think 5,000 points for the judging is good behind the scenes to establish the originality. If our results were on one list showing deficiencies that's all we need and that would save that huge stack of paper each car gets (save the trees). It's obvious looking at one sheet showing all deficiencies that the rest of the car has no issues.

I enjoyed the explanation of your fan restoration and can see how thorough you are with it. I appreciate the sharing of your work!

On a separate subject I understand you have a 1930 radiator shell for sale that might help me on my sedan. please let me know.
bob@hamilton precision.ca.
Thanks again Brent

[Bob Bidonde]

NDI will not determine the remaining fatigue life of the metal fan blades. NDI is to check for cracks that may already exist in the metal.
There has been so many fan blade departures that have destroyed / severely damaged original hoods, original radiators and original water pumps that it is foolish of the judging committee not to accept aluminum reproductions for the sake of preservation of parts and safety.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

NDI will not determine the remaining fatigue life of the metal fan blades. NDI is to check for cracks that may already exist in the metal.
There has been so many fan blade departures that have destroyed / severely damaged original hoods, original radiators and original water pumps that it is foolish of the judging committee not to accept aluminum reproductions for the sake of preservation of parts and safety.

Mr. B, while what you are saying is correct about any non-destructive inspection not being able to predict cycle failures, however the purpose for me crack checking is ensure the item is as free of visual defects as possible which could later resurface as a stress crack.


The reason for wanting to use an original fan is Bob (-the original poster Bob ) is he is trying to make his vehicle replicate the timeframe when it was first assembled. Restoring a fan using some/all of the techniques I mentioned above is more than sufficient to meet the requirements of Fine Point adjudication. I don't believe any of us are advocating the use of an original two-blade fan without constant inspection for fatigue. FWIW, in the history of Fine-Point adjudication in either club, I do not believe there has ever been an occasion in Start & Idle, -or on the Mandatory Tour where an original fan came apart and damaged a radiator or sheetmetal. Therefore, I believe if a restorer will do their due-diligence on the front side, the likelihood of a fan failure during the judging process is very, very low in percentages.

And just so everyone is clear about repro fans. The JSC and/or Area 3 Judges will accept a reproduction two-blade Fan in F/P competition. If memory serves me correctly, all the Standards say is something to the effect of "a significant point deduction will be given".

So let's discuss this. With the expanded 5,000 point judging system, the entire Area 3 Cooling is only worth 150 points of that entire 5,000 points. (Very small percentage in that category considering the overall point system.) Of that 150 points, there is a sub-area in Area 3 that is combined of adjudicating the Cooling Fan, the Fan Belt, and the Fan's Castle Nut, -and that section is only worth 20 points total. So all three of these items make-up a total of 20 points, -or 2 points out of 500. Breaking this down in real-world numbers, ...let's say the Judges interpret that "significant deduction" to mean 50% of the total allowable points that can be deducted, ...that means that only 10 points will be deducted, -or 1 point out of 500.

So if someone has a fine-point vehicle that scores 481 points in F/P competition with a reproduction aluminum two-blade fan, then theoretically if that same exact car would have been judged with a perfect NOS fan, the highest that car would have scored would have been 482. Only ONE point difference for having a repro fan vs. a perfectly restored original fan. And ironically, ...if the Judges had only deducted 8 points out of the 20 points allotted (i.e.: 40% Fan, 40% Belt, & 20% for the Nut), then that car with the reproduction fan would have also scored 482 because of point rounding. That in a nutshell is why I believe it really isn't that big of a deal, -and also why I feel there isn't a need for the JSC to accept reproduction fans without a point deduction. Does this make sense??

[Model "A" Fords]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Mr. B, That in a nutshell is why I believe it really isn't that big of a deal, -and also why I feel there isn't a need for the JSC to accept reproduction fans without a point deduction. Does this make sense??

Brent, Obviously you believe original is as it came off the line. I agree with that.

In 1967 I bought my 1930 sedan to add one more Model A to the family. Now on the second restoration I decided to make it back to original ( I won't say high points car as the deduction sheet will tell me all I need to be satisfied).

The same year I got my car I also started Iceboating. Like the car it has been a journey of constant learning along the way. I worked my way to the top of the development class by paying attention to every person and idea that I could. I mention this because on the journey I built numerous Iceboats, one being the "Renegade", designed in 1947 as a one design ( all boats are exactly identical). Meaning being the same, the skipper would then control the outcome of a race not the boat.
The designer was asked about substitutes from the plans. The answer was no as it wouldn't be a "Renegade". When asked how accurate to build it he said within a scribed line. People inquired about their boat fitting the class rules? He said if it didn't look like a "Renegade" it wasn't a "Renegade".
It continues to be a favorite to this day, attracting people wanting to go fast without the effort of continuous developing. Boats built in 1947 still compete equality with 2023 builds, difference is only the date built.

Now, back to the car: If it doesn't look like an original Model A I guess it's not an original Model A!
I'm good knowing the original and repro fan can both be used for judging as one will obviously look original.

[figment]

I think that someone mentioned that their car would be judged against the car next to it but all vehicles are judged against the standards only and not against any other vehicles being judged .

[MilwaukeeMike]

There are older replacement fans. I have something like a 1960's 4 blade fan. The 2 blades are screwed to the pulley that fits an A water pump.and clears the radiator.