276 stroker from 35 years of parts

[GB SISSON]

In this thread I would like to share the assembly of a 276 cu in 8ba with a 4" stroke mercury crankshaft. My goal is a stock appearing flatheadf V8 to install into my shop built 1947 truck based woodie wagon. The wagon is currently running a 221 replacement block that I assembled from measured good used parts in accordance with the Ford Motor Co publication 'Repairing the Ford V8 engine'. It is a fine running engine, but I wanted more.....
I have been working on flathed V8s for at least 35 years now and have collected literally tons of parts. About seven years ago I happened upon a guy while visiting Friday Harbor, on a neighboring island who claimed to have a 4" virgin merc crank in his garage. He had retirered there from California and knew Jere Jobe who I had visited with many times on the phone about carbs and ignition matters. I bought his crankshaft and salted it away for the future. 3 years ago I had it ground and it cleaned up at .010 mains and .020 rods.
I have eleven blocks with very few visible cracks and so I built an electromagnet and bought what I needed for magnafluxing these blocks. I then built a kit for pressure testing our V8s. The first block I tested passed without a hitch and was very clean all around. I have two friends on the mainland who have had vintage engines rebuilt at Sedro-Wooley Auto parts and swear by the work of Les, who runs the machine shop out back. Let's just say, I'm a believer. He is very knowledgeable and passionate about flatheads, and a modest and soft spoken gentleman. Les urged me to let him install hard seats saying that even though I loaf along on an island, my heirs may want to hit the freeway now and then. (sounds scary). He hot tanked it,bored and honed it .125, as recomended by 'Barner friends. aligned and rebushed the rods, provided pistons and rings, installed cam bearings, surfaced the flywheel and three deck surfaces, and even the crank bores on the mains look like he attended to them. In this thread I will be seeking information about the condition of some of the used parts I intend to use and which parts make the most sense to enable the fitting of this later engine into my '47 jailbar 1/2 ton 'pickup'. I have a lot of preferences already and my desired end result may very well be miles away from what a 'normal' V8er is looking for in his build. 98% of my driving will be under 40 mph on a very hilly 58 square mile island. This woodie has very little to do with overdrive, high speed, hot cams, or any speed equipment for that matter. It has everything to do with serviceability, low end torque for the hills, smoooooth idle, and as always, that elusive 'built on a shoestring' budget.
Being 40 years self employed, living on a rock, raising 4 kids on one income, I'm very happily still working 1/2 time at 70, and loving that social security. There are many, many ways to finish this engine from here, but let's keep in mind, my hobby resources are finite,
I may not get this engine completed and installed into the woodie this season I have to deal with transmission issues in both of my beloved summertime jailbar rides. I will start with some pictures from yesterday morning's ferry ride and picking the block up from Les. My wife wanted to stop at her favorite designer nursery on the way home for plants for the deck. What could I say?

[petehoovie]

[Bored&Stroked]

You're going to have a great engine! Think about putting a mild cam in it - just so you can have a bit of a "hotrod sound" - maybe an Isky 1007B grind. I'd also put a two-carb manifold or a late Mercury manifold bored out for a bigger Rochester carb.

This is probably the only hotrod engine you're going to build . . . so have fun!

[tubman]

Dale's got it right!

Plus a proper distributor.

[GB SISSON]

Thank you Pete! The enlargements are always welcomed. I just got my first pair of perscription glasses on Monday and I'm seeing them loud and clear. And sheesh you guys... Right outa the chute I get two ideas for spending more money.

[38 coupe]

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Find a good stock 8BA era camshaft with no measurable wear on the lobe (measure lobe heights, all should be equal). You can't beat the stock cam for low end grunt and smooth idle.

I like the stock 3 bolt carburetors. Look through your collection and see if you have one with the larger diameter venturi. The venturi size is marked on the center section, will say 94 (indicating 0.94"), 1 (indicating 1"), 1 1/16, or 1 5/16. I avoid the last ones since there is a large mismatch in the more of the base, but the 1 1/16 should work great with the larger displacement and a stock ignition. Make sure the carburetor has the port for the vacuum advance unit of the stock 8BA era distributor, I have seen one large venturi carb without that port.

[tubman]

As to camshafts, try to find a later Mercury cam; they have substantially more lift and a bit more duration than the 8BA units. Check this site out : https://www.tildentechnologies.com/C...rformance.html.

[GB SISSON]

If a stock 8ba cam gives the smoothest idle and best low end grunt, I'm all in. I have 3 cams, but two have been out of engines for a while and have surface rust. The 3rd looks good and is in one of my 8ba blocks. I will do some measuring tomorrow. I think I took one of the surface rust ones to my wire wheel with some decent results. I will post some pics tomorrow. Maybe someone out there has a nice one they removed to install a high performance cam.

[cas3]

I also like the merc cam. Made for low end torque for the heavy merc, and the new in vogue automatic trannys. would be a good choice in the woodie

[38 coupe]

Any of the stock 8BA cams will work, the shorter duration versions will maximize low end torque at the expense of mid and upper range horsepower. I would look for the best condition camshaft rather than a specific version. It will be important to identify the cam since valve lash changes depending on the factory grind.

Another cheap effort that will be felt in the seat of the pants is to get the piston to head clearance to about 0.050. I keep a used head gasket around so I can bolt a head down and measure the clearance with tin foil balls, then surface as needed to get where I want.

[GB SISSON]

Today I will measure the three cams I have. I will of course mic the journals, next I expect I'd measure at 90 degrees to the lobe, then at the lobe, right? One more thing this morning. I woke up thinking about the original post and talking about the machinest Mel. Well it dawned on me that his name is Les, not Mel. I have edited the opening 'novel' for that. When we picked up the block my wife pointed out that he'd neatly stamped my full name onto the intake surface.

[Tim Ayers]

Glad to hear that another motor is coming together.

Man, I know I'm in the minority here, but I would not go with a stock cam. While you have a the chance, go with something that can accomplish what you are looking to do while also giving your flathead some added gow.

Life's too short to use a stock cam. LOL!!!!!

[Bored&Stroked]

Yeah, I'm like Tim . . . I like hot-rodded flatheads! LOL

[deuce_roadster]

Gary, I often get asked about who to have machine a flathead block. I am happy to know about your guy. There are getting to be fewer people around to do that work correctly.
I too would recommend a Merc cam for your intended use.

[GB SISSON]

Here's what I found at the shop. I pulled the cam that was in an 8ba block. It looks to be in nice shape and is marked 8BA, next was pretty badly pitted on the lobes and marked 8CM, last has dull brown surface rust without pits and marked EA with another A directly below. A quick hit on the wire wheel seemed to clean it up nicely. Journals were similar, and I didn't write them down. 1.794-5 sound right? My phone was dead, so I will get pics in an hour.

[GB SISSON]

Here's pics of the three. I have searched EA and EAA for cam info, but zilch. The 8BA looks best, but the EAA not bad, The 8CM is out of the running as I see it. But then there's the Portland Swap Meet looming! Set up in my lathe with a dial indicator shows some runout. About .003.I would expect some at the 3 jaw chuck, but also at the tailstock. Middle a bit more.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Here's pics of the three. I have searched EA and EAA for cam info, but zilch. The 8BA looks best, but the EAA not bad, The 8CM is out of the running as I see it. But then there's the Portland Swap Meet looming! Set up in my lathe with a dial indicator shows some runout. About .003.I would expect some at the 3 jaw chuck, but also at the tailstock. Middle a bit more.

Cam grinder Pete will know for sure, but I believe the "EA" is the same grind as the EAB cam which came out in '53. From what I understand, it was the "hottest" factory cam.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Here's pics of the three. I have searched EA and EAA for cam info, but zilch. The 8BA looks best, but the EAA not bad, The 8CM is out of the running as I see it. But then there's the Portland Swap Meet looming! Set up in my lathe with a dial indicator shows some runout. About .003.I would expect some at the 3 jaw chuck, but also at the tailstock. Middle a bit more.

[38 coupe]

The EA cam is almost certainly an EAB cam. The BA cam is almost certainly an 8BA cam. The specifications for each are:
8BA intake - 0.305 gross lift; .013 / .015 lash; 0.291 net lift; 229 seat duration
8BA exhaust - 0.305 gross lift; .017 / .019 lash; 0.287 net lift; 238 seat duration
EAB intake - 0.328 gross lift; .013 / .015 lash; 0.314 net lift; 269 seat duration
EAB exhaust - 0.328 gross lift; .017 / .019 lash; 0.310 net lift; 247 seat duration

The EAB cam has a smooth idle and good mid-range.
The 8BA cam has a smooth idle and probably more low end grunt.

[Tim Ayers]

That 8BA cam is a dog. If the EAB cam is good, that's the best of what you have. Unless you are pulling tree stumps, you don't need low end power. Mid-to upper RPM is where most people drive.

One more pitch, go with a better cam. Now is the time.

[cadillac512]

From the condition of the three pictured choices, and keeping the intended use in mind, I'd go with the 8BA.

[tubman]

This brings to mind the issues of new lifters on a used cam. This is generally considered to be OK as long as the cam is in good shape. In the final analysis, you can try anything, but using mixed parts can sometimes end up in not a good way.

[GB SISSON]

'Repair Manual'
'Ford and Mercury V8 Engines 78-81A-59A series
1937 to 1948 Pass. Cars
1937 to 1947 Trucks' 3666-48D

Printed June 18. 1948 by Ford Motor Company, lists the fits and tolerances, along with their recomended wear limits when repairing their V8 using various combinations of used parts in conjunction with new parts. This book was intended for use by Ford service mechanics in their facility. I plan to use this book as my reference, as I have many times in the past when dealing with using new parts alongside old parts. I will venture that many engines today are built with brand new shiney parts from the the major supply houses that might very well have come in from all over the globe. There is always the chance that the materials and workmanship might not be as good as what Henry specified, so for me, I prefer a measured and inspected used Ford part.(not to mention I have buckets of them). When asked about valves, Les told me the Ford valves are excellent and what to look for when I dump out my 2 coffee cans full.
I still have a lot of questions about oil pumps, truck oil pans, truck water pumps, tin foil balls, original Ford lifters and grinding stems, cleaning out the crank oil passages, cam gears (I have seven), crank gears, baffles, etc. I'm quite set on a stock merc or 8ba cam, though many have tried to sway me into being a 'hot rodder', I happily remain a 'brown shoed square'. Your's truly, GB

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by tubman

This brings to mind the issues of new lifters on a used cam. This is generally considered to be OK as long as the cam is in good shape. In the final analysis, you can try anything, but using mixed parts can sometimes end up in not a good way.

It also has to do with spring pressure. If you're running a stock cam, you only need about 45 -50 lbs (max) of spring pressure . . . so that tends to be a bit more forgiving when using older lifters. BUT, you want to check the bottoms of the lifters - they should have a very slight convex "crown" on them. If not, then you might want to get them resurfaced.

[GB SISSON]

Thanks, I'm still a bit up in the air about lifters. I have 2 complete sets of old Johnsons. One from a cracked block tear down and one set from a swap meet. I ended up with 2 of the same sioux valve face surfacers (both were given to me) I have been swapping parts around and will end up with a really nice one. Been experimenting with the stem grinding and it is very satisfying. I can see this becoming like a 'which cam?' thread, so in the end I alone will have to decide. I have been out in the shop this morning messing with cleaning up cams on my lathe. Ford's book says to discard a cam with journals less than 1.7955. My new inserted bearings are 1.799. Right now I am of course walking the line between nicely polished journals and too small. Lastly, what does anyone know about an 8RT cam? NOS Ford in cosmoline are available for less than 200 bucks. (military?) Very little written about them on the web, but most say they think it's same as 8BA.

[rysemus]

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I had Les, great guy to work with, do all the machine work on my 59a block. He sourced the same pistons in the your photo for my build. I highly recommend disassembling them for a full cleaning. My had a large amount of aluminum chips under the wrist pin area. It hard to see but check with a finger.

Rick

[Ol' Ron]

Now that you have the cam selected ( I like the EAB cam) find a set of EAB heads and mill for 40/45 piston to head clearance, Lot of things tot hink o f here. Good luck
Gramps

[cadillac512]

Quote from Gary's initial post:
" I have a lot of preferences already and my desired end result may very well be miles away from what a 'normal' V8er is looking for in his build. 98% of my driving will be under 40 mph on a very hilly 58 square mile island. This woodie has very little to do with overdrive, high speed, hot cams, or any speed equipment for that matter. It has everything to do with serviceability, low end torque for the hills, smoooooth idle, and as always, that elusive 'built on a shoestring' budget."


Based on that, any cam other than stock would (in my opinion and experience) be a waste and quite possibly detrimental. An 8BA or 8RT will run beautifully in that application. Getting piston to head clearance as close to .040" as I could?....I'd be all about getting that done.



Terry

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by rysemus

I had Les, great guy to work with, do all the machine work on my 59a block. He sourced the same pistons in the your photo for my build. I highly recommend disassembling them for a full cleaning. My had a large amount of aluminum chips under the wrist pin area. It hard to see but check with a finger.

Rick

Thank you Rick, I will certainly do that. Once again 'Offshore' parts, rear their ugly heads. Les has a sign in the shop that says they will only build with parts sold by the 'Carquest' store out front. Let me be the first to welcome to the barn, neighbor! And Terry, thanks for the quote and 'getting' what I am planning to build here.

[38 coupe]

I suspect the 8RT cam is either the same as the 8BA cam, or is the older 37-48 grind. I would check the 8BA and the EAB cams for condition and if either are good use them first, with preference on the 8BA cam. No need to spend another $200 you don't need (that will be used for water pumps, gaskets, or some other necessity). Post the journal diameters and we can keep offering opinions. You definitely want good cam to bearing clearances as that directly affects engine oil pressure.

[GB SISSON]

And I watch my oil pressure like a hawk. Ask my kids... On long driving vacations (every family car we owned had high mileage), my mood would revolve around the oil pressure I was seeing on the aftermarket gauge. Here are some photos from this morning's adventure in cam cleaning. I mic'd the heel/toe dimension before and after sanding with 600/800/1000/1200 wet dry with MMO for lubricant. This gave a surface I could live with for the lobes, The journals took a lot less work. I downshifted the lathe into back gear on the lowest of 4 belt speeds and was at 35 rpm. The journals remained constant at 1.795-1.796. But get this..... Using my dial indicator with cam in the lathe(not running) I found .341 gross lift on the ones I had not surfaced, and gross lift on the two I completed to my satisfaction I had a gross lift of .338 and .339. I knew my method would take more off the toe as the oak splint exerted the greatest spring pressure at that point. Must be why someone altered the EA designation. Anybody want this thing? Unfortunately the other 2 cams have similar sized journals. I already have gaskets, can I buy that nos 8rt cam?

[flatford8]

It don’t matter where you live……..I’m calling that Yankee Ingenuity! …….Mark

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

And I watch my oil pressure like a hawk. Ask my kids... On long driving vacations (every family car we owned had high mileage), my mood would revolve around the oil pressure I was seeing on the aftermarket gauge. Here are some photos from this morning's adventure in cam cleaning. I mic'd the heel/toe dimension before and after sanding with 600/800/1000/1200 wet dry with MMO for lubricant. This gave a surface I could live with for the lobes, The journals took a lot less work. I downshifted the lathe into back gear on the lowest of 4 belt speeds and was at 35 rpm. The journals remained constant at 1.795-1.796. But get this..... Using my dial indicator with cam in the lathe(not running) I found .341 gross lift on the ones I had not surfaced, and gross lift on the two I completed to my satisfaction I had a gross lift of .338 and .339. I knew my method would take more off the toe as the oak splint exerted the greatest spring pressure at that point. Must be why someone altered the EA designation. Anybody want this thing? Unfortunately the other 2 cams have similar sized journals. I already have gaskets, can I buy that nos 8rt cam?

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Thanks, I'm still a bit up in the air about lifters. I have 2 complete sets of old Johnsons. One from a cracked block tear down and one set from a swap meet. I ended up with 2 of the same sioux valve face surfacers (both were given to me) I have been swapping parts around and will end up with a really nice one. Been experimenting with the stem grinding and it is very satisfying. I can see this becoming like a 'which cam?' thread, so in the end I alone will have to decide. I have been out in the shop this morning messing with cleaning up cams on my lathe. Ford's book says to discard a cam with journals less than 1.7955. My new inserted bearings are 1.799. Right now I am of course walking the line between nicely polished journals and too small. Lastly, what does anyone know about an 8RT cam? NOS Ford in cosmoline are available for less than 200 bucks. (military?) Very little written about them on the web, but most say they think it's same as 8BA.

I have never seen a cam with 8RT markings on it.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by flatford8

It don’t matter where you live……..I’m calling that Yankee Ingenuity! …….Mark

Wow Pete! You make me look like a photographer. And Mark, yes I was born in Seattle soon after my YANKEE parents moved there from SE Massachusetts, leaving behind many generations of Sissons. My dad had a little sign in his workshop that read:

Use it up,
Wear it out,
Make it do,
Or do without

He claimed it was the true New England yankee creed.

[oldbugger]

Sounds like the same thing my Dutch Dad told me

[GB SISSON]

I now see that someone got the last one of those cosmoline coated camshafts this morning. Oh wait, it was me, earlier today. And flatjack, I don't know if it has '8RT' markings on the camshaft itself. I guess we'll find out. https://www.ebay.com/itm/393197818167

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Now that you have the cam selected ( I like the EAB cam) find a set of EAB heads and mill for 40/45 piston to head clearance, Lot of things tot hink o f here. Good luck
Gramps

Thanks Ron, I dug out a couple sets of those from my stack last winter. I set aside the best looking pair on a dedicated shelf where I have been stockpiling everything I need for this engine. It's starting to get exciting.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

I now see that someone got the last one of those cosmoline coated camshafts this morning. Oh wait, it was me, earlier today. And flatjack, I don't know if it has '8RT' markings on the camshaft itself. I guess we'll find out. https://www.ebay.com/itm/393197818167

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Thanks Ron, I dug out a couple sets of those from my stack last winter. I set aside the best looking pair on a dedicated shelf where I have been stockpiling everything I need for this engine. It's starting to get exciting.

[38 coupe]

Your measured lift numbers sounded familiar for some reason so I went searching. Sure enough, reported measured lift by a Barn member on a NOS EAB camshaft was similar to what you are finding on your used EA cam. I can't explain the deviation from reported lift by every other source for these cams. Link to other thread here: https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336984

Regardless, the NOS Canadian cam is a great way to go for the vehicle you have. Does anyone have a Canadian manual so we know what valve lash should be with the cam?

[GB SISSON]

Thanks for the good word! Been looking at valves, guides, springs etc. Lots to pick from. Looks like the shorter springs, about 1/4" shorter are for valves using rotaters? Been breaking assemblies down with my nifty KR Wilson spring compresser I bought here on the fordbarm swapmeet.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by petehoovie

That is a Canadian no. In US, the basic cam number was 6250. Be interesting to find out the specs.

[51504bat]

Don't know about the cosmoline on your 8rt cam but when I bought NOS Rods for my 8ba the machinist had a hell of a time cleaning whatever preservative they were coated with. Hope all you need is a little acetone on a rag for your new cam.

[GB SISSON]

I bought some pistons in cosmoline about ten years ago and had the devil's time getting it off until I set tfhem on a moderately warm woodstove. It wiped off with a rag and wd 40. And I agree about the Canadian cam. Cosmoline makes me think military, but would have been Korean war time frame.....? And I think of ford military vehicles as having a six.

[cas3]

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I was a big military vehicle collector years ago, and in the government issued manuals it says to clean cosmoline off with gasoline. Works good, I've done it many times. Those numbers on the cam package will tell what vehicle the cam was for. WW2 stuff is easy, every vehicle had a "G" number at the beginning, like G503 is a jeep, then the number after that tells what part it is for the jeep. The 8rt cam in question, is later than ww2, so those numbers fall in what we call "m series" which is post ww2, korean war era when they changed the number system to the NSN, "national stock number". Which will still be able to find the origin of the cam, but slightly harder to research , and if Canadian it get trickier yet. Would be fun to know what it was made for though.

[GB SISSON]

I'm hoping with the RT truck designation it will be right for the type of power I am looking for. The fact that it's Ford and it's New is a step in the right direction. Here's a pic of my KR Wilson valve spring compressor. I mounted it on a board this morning so it can be used vertically or horizontally. It's easier to get at the keepers with it laying on it's back. Since my block now has hard seats, does that mean I use the valve assemblies without rotators? Typically in the past I have just replaced all the valve assemblies with exactly what type came out.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

I'm hoping with the RT truck designation it will be right for the type of power I am looking for. The fact that it's Ford and it's New is a step in the right direction. Here's a pic of my KR Wilson valve spring compressor. I mounted it on a board this morning so it can be used vertically or horizontally. It's easier to get at the keepers with it laying on it's back. Since my block now has hard seats, does that mean I use the valve assemblies without rotators? Typically in the past I have just replaced all the valve assemblies with exactly what type came out.

[cas3]

Geez, a KR Wilson spring compressor, and a big Wilton bullet vise, you are somebody GB!

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by cas3

Geez, a KR Wilson spring compressor, and a big Wilton bullet vise, you are somebody GB!

Aw shucks Skip, It's just Pete and his jumbo photographs. That little spring compressor fits in the palm of my hand and the vise has 4" jaws. Not big as vices go.
In my searching about the 8rt cam I did uncover this:



https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr....z9DEc9Oavh_hA-

What is interesting to me is the journal wear limit in the chart posted by Ross. 1.794 . Makes me wonder what you engine builders and cam specialists consider acceptable clearance. It will be interesting to measure my new purchase.

[tubman]

I couldn't find one of them KR Wilson valve compressors, so I made my own from a piece of pipe and some scrap metal. It was easy and worked well.

[cadillac512]

Gary, you can choose whichever type spring/retainer setup you wish. The non-rotator (longer) springs are generally easier to find if you want new ones. Either will work with your block.

[GB SISSON]

I have a lot of springs here. My gut feeling is to test and use these tried and true US made Ford springs. To know the 'installed length' do I have to install them or is there a generaly agreed upon dimension used for this purpose? I understand that a valve set up with it's spring and all keepers installed as a unit will change once it is installed in the block with it's horseshoe clip. As I stated previously, I have a lot of questions. Here's one more.... What would seem to be more accurate in testing valve spring pressure? A clutch master cylinder with a pressure gauge threaded in, or a digital bathroom scale? Either would be set on my drill press with the depth stop set at installed spring number.And Tubman, that's neat job on that compressor.

[cadillac512]

2.125"-2.130" is a good rule of thumb for stock non-rotator springs. Ford said 37-40# at that number for early engines and 50-51# for the Zephyr.

[Bored&Stroked]

It is always best to test the particular springs that you have in your hand. I've seen them vary all over the place.

I have a hydraulic pressure gauge (from Jegs) that I put in my mill to determine the installed height. Is really a cool tool and I have used on many engines!

2024-03-25_17-37-30.jpg

On your engine, you'll find the full-length non-rotator type springs, retainers, etc - will be easiest to find/locate. If you have a bunch of springs around, if you get a tester than you can go through them and see if you can "make a set" that are all close to the same installed/open pressures.

You need to make a little "checking spring" - out of something light that allows you to put together an assembly for each valve, install it in the engine and measure the resulting spring installed height - then you know what to do as far as shims from there.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

It is always best to test the particular springs that you have in your hand. I've seen them vary all over the place.

I have a hydraulic pressure gauge (from Jegs) that I put in my mill to determine the installed height. Is really a cool tool and I have used on many engines!

Attachment 539091

On your engine, you'll find the full-length non-rotator type springs, retainers, etc - will be easiest to find/locate. If you have a bunch of springs around, if you get a tester than you can go through them and see if you can "make a set" that are all close to the same installed/open pressures.

You need to make a little "checking spring" - out of something light that allows you to put together an assembly for each valve, install it in the engine and measure the resulting spring installed height - then you know what to do as far as shims from there.

Thank you for all this info. This afternoon I decided to put some of this new knowledge to use and so I found an unused wheel cylinder in a box on a shelf. I took it apart and drilled and tapped the brake line bore to 1/8" pipe and threaded in an oil pressure gauge. I reassembled the cylinder 'under water' in a tupperware container filled with brake fluid as I figured it would be hard to bleed. I set it on the drill press. A quick test using a deep socket in place of a valve spring showed very responsive reading fron 0 to 80 lbs. I thought I had something I could use but had to go in for dinner. Now I'm thinking about 40 psi... is that the same as 40 lbs on a scale? Oh well, I'm learning new things and that's what makes me happy. Hoping to have some free time tomorrow to further investigate my apparatus.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Thank you for all this info. This afternoon I decided to put some of this new knowledge to use and so I found an unused wheel cylinder in a box on a shelf. I took it apart and drilled and tapped the brake line bore to 1/8" pipe and threaded in an oil pressure gauge. I reassembled the cylinder 'under water' in a tupperware container filled with brake fluid as I figured it would be hard to bleed. I set it on the drill press. A quick test using a deep socket in place of a valve spring showed very responsive reading fron 0 to 80 lbs. I thought I had something I could use but had to go in for dinner. Now I'm thinking about 40 psi... is that the same as 40 lbs on a scale? Oh well, I'm learning new things and that's what makes me happy. Hoping to have some free time tomorrow to further investigate my apparatus.

[GB SISSON]

Now I'm really confused...???

[cas3]

I think your home made thing is a wonderful idea. Ingenuity at its best! I'm not the expert here, but if you have a box full of springs and time to fool with it, pick out 16 that are close to the same, and the highest reading. Carry on...we're all waiting!

[GB SISSON]

I got a little time to run a test. Bear with me here, The plastic tube is an 'airborne' cold tablet container, cut to 2 1/8" inside height.The od fits the brake cup the ID fits a spring. Neither is binding on anything. I think this type of measuring tube is a bad idea as it indicates the installed height, but not the installed height in the block. No matter which long style spring I pick it shows about 20 psi at 2.125. When pushed another .125 below the rim of the tube, they show 40 psi. When I substitute a deep socket in place of the spring, the lest pressure shows up immediately. With a spring on the tester the gauge shows no pressre until some compression of the spring takes place. In the final analysis though, 40 lbs is 40 lbs and a good spring should be at the 2.125 lip on the pill bottle. I'm thinking I need to make the light spring tester, find true installed height and test springs at that height instead? Huh? I'm starting to feel like the guy in 'Close Encounters' , but instead of Devil's Tower, I see valve gear....

[flatjack9]

Yes you do need to determine installed height and do your testing at that length.

[GB SISSON]

OK, thanks! I knew I was doing something wrong. The whole 'installed height' thing hase confused me and then there is 'open' and 'closed' too. I sould have paid more attention to 'Bored and Stroked', but I was too busy digesting all this new stuff. Since I have all new hard seats can I expect to have pretty consistent installed height, or will each spring need to be adjusted individually? I like the light spring method. It won't surprise anyone here that I have a lifetime collection of springs.

[GB SISSON]

Plenty busy with my day job today, but after dinner I got a chance to make a light spring setup and get some measurements I can work with. What I found is that even though I have fewer of the short springs, I do have more than enough to make a set with the rotators. I'm leaning that way as I have a nice clean set that is quite consistent.Thing is, at installed height they are in the mid 20s. I found a small fender washer that measures exactly .060 and with that on top of the coil they all register from 38 to 42. I have never bought or used valve shims. Is .060 a lot of shim? If I go this route what should I order? Tomorrow I will do the same with the longer non rotator type and see what I get.

[Bored&Stroked]

You should be able to order a box of shims from Goodson. I usually buy a box of .060 and another of .015. I don't have the part numbers handy (anybody have them?). You can just measure a guide a determine what you need. Also, the shims go on the "guide side" of the assembly.

https://goodson.com/collections/valv...-booster-shims

Another option is to talk to VanPelt or Michael at ThirdGen - they probably have them as well.

[Bored&Stroked]

You'll also need a small snap-gauge or inside machinist divider/calipers to get into the valley and measure the installed spring heights. Usually, you'll find that the installed heights will be pretty close and depending on what level of a "perfectionist" you are, you might get away with the same thickness and number of shims on all intakes and all exhausts.

[GB SISSON]

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Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

You'll also need a small snap-gauge or inside machinist divider/calipers to get into the valley and measure the installed spring heights. Usually, you'll find that the installed heights will be pretty close and depending on what level of a "perfectionist" you are, you might get away with the same thickness and number of shims on all intakes and all exhausts.

I heated up an old set of dividers and curled the legs outwards and ground them flat and thin for the purpose. I'm a certain kind of perfectionist. I use unconventional methods, but I still like to end up with a part that fits and performs as intended. Don't forget I'm the guy who made teflon buttons for a set of pistons with bad circlip grooves an then there's kingpin honing using a long wooden spoon with a slot for sandpaper. I pulled a couple of adjustable lifters from the two sets and was unable to see an arc or radius on the bottom. On a ground surface they appear flat. I will investigate further, and look at some ford ones for comparison.

[cadillac512]

Gary and others: At the risk of starting a sh.. storm of disagreement I will tell you that I have a new-in-box set of stock OEM Ford EAB flathead lifters that were purchased from Whitey McDonald (the old racer) a few years ago. They are dead flat...no crown at all. These have not ever been run and are in the original Ford box, and Whitey himself handed them to me and told me he bought them from Ford.

[flatford8]

The crown on the bottom is so that they rotate in the bore.....right??.......Mark

[GB SISSON]

Won't get any kind of a storm OR argument from me ...The ones I pulled looked like they had machine marks on the bottom, like they were ground flat. Now these are hollow adjustables, both sets pulled from old stuck engines, and I call them Johnsons for lack of a better term. I goofed around most of the morning gathering more valve parts, testing and measuring. My wheel cylinder device seems to give very consistent results and I have finalized my valve assemblies with rotater keepers. I still need ten of the cup shaped piece for the rotators, but I imagine I'll find them as I have way too many cones. I think I will put my springs in a rock tumbler and then paint them before I set them aside. I'm supposed to get that cam by Tuesday. Will have a full report.

[flatford8]

Gary,
Should the springs be painted?.......how do you prevent the paint from pealing and plugging up an oil passage?.......Mark

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by flatford8

Gary,
Should the springs be painted?.......how do you prevent the paint from pealing and plugging up an oil passage?.......Mark

Hi Mark, you make a very good point here. There are two reasons I thought I might paint them, but only after a surgical cleaning and 'grit etching'. 1) I recalled this passage in the lower right hand side of my little orange Ford book, 2) I get to look at them all painted up nice-like in the valley for a while. I did just google this after I read your post and came up with this 'barn post from a few years back on the subject. I DO respect your concern on the matter. It is valid. https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrO...KDZg3u2c4I16w-

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Hi Mark, you make a very good point here. There are two reasons I thought I might paint them, but only after a surgical cleaning and 'grit etching'. 1) I recalled this passage in the lower right hand side of my little orange Ford book, 2) I get to look at them all painted up nice-like in the valley for a while. I did just google this after I read your post and came up with this 'barn post from a few years back on the subject. I DO respect your concern on the matter. It is valid. https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrO...KDZg3u2c4I16w-

[Bored&Stroked]

I would never paint a valve spring - absolutely no reason to and it is just asking for the paint to come off at a later date.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I would never paint a valve spring - absolutely no reason to and it is just asking for the paint to come off at a later date.

I'd have to agree. The job of a spring by definition is to flex. From everything I know, flexing and paint are incompatible.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I would never paint a valve spring - absolutely no reason to and it is just asking for the paint to come off at a later date.

I agree, but I have encountered springs that seem to be painted or coated from the manufacture.

[GB SISSON]

I have a lot of black flathead springs, and stuff I read says isky springs were painted gray. I will, however err on the side of caution (and today's paint) and clean 'em up and use them bare. One less thing to go bad on me.

[GB SISSON]

I have my 16 excellent valve springs all clean and shiney in a can on my 8ba shelf. Today I picked out all of the 8ba style exhaust valves I have and started culling them for head thickness and stem diameter. I plan to use all Ford exhaust valves. I have handfulls of guides in a bucket of solvent soaking before testing. Tomorrow morning I get on the ferry to pick up that '93 S10 T-5. I needed one in my hands to get a visual as to next steps. It may very well be that I do the t5 swap this spring onto the back of the 221 that exists in the woodie. It's a nice runner with no real issues. I'm really busy with work still and don't want to rush the 276 build. Besides, I have the transfer case rebuilt now for the foyota, and that needs to go back in. Both of these vehicles are 'summer rides' and I will have 5 grandchildren around most of the summer. They are all under ten years old and love our drives through the countryside. Anyway, I will return tomorrow night with my catch. It will be interesting to rotate the gears and count what I have. Oh, and one more thing on the 276. That 8rt camshaft. Last week I started thinking it shoulda come by then. I look at ebay and it says 'money refunded'. I found out I had accidently cancelled my order with a keystroke... Fortunately nobody bought it in the interim. I reordered and it has been shipped. To arrive April 3-8. I will let you know what it measures at that time. Ok, early ferry in the morning. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[cas3]

Seems to me any grand kid would be happy hangin out on mount picket and riding around in old fords. no need to tell them about that one incident of crashing into mamas chicken coop! Just teasing of course GB, good life you got there...carry on

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by cas3

Seems to me any grand kid would be happy hangin out on mount picket and riding around in old fords. no need to tell them about that one incident of crashing into mamas chicken coop! Just teasing of course GB, good life you got there...carry on

Ya got a good memory there Skip! Fortunately the chicken's home remained intact as I busted through the gate and fence on the right hand side of it. I have the brand new flexolite fan and aluminum radiator that met that day on a wall in my shop with a sign that says 'Have brakes'. The chicken house is an important social center here!

[Als48]

GB, I remember the chicken coop story as well. It reminds me of my Grandad Sam's near miss with his old truck. Dad and my brother and I were tearing down an old house for the lumber in '63. I was 16, My grandad, who was about '70 or so at the time had a '52 F2 or F3, not sure which. He had gotten out of it at the crest of the hill, leaving it out of gear, running maybe. Anyway my 4 yr old sister was in the truck, standing on the seat (what car-seat?) as the truck began to roll down the hill toward a wooded area. Sam tried to catch the truck but couldn't so he yelled for Sheri to jump! She did, but the truck didn't go much farther before becoming lodged on a downed tree trunk and stopped without much if any damage. Grandad Sam was pretty upset, but relieved that Sheri was ok. Ole Blue survived to carry a load of lumber home 10 miles away. Kinda funny now, but not that day.

Al Hook

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Ya got a good memory there Skip! Fortunately the chicken's home remained intact as I busted through the gate and fence on the right hand side of it. I have the brand new flexolite fan and aluminum radiator that met that day on a wall in my shop with a sign that says 'Have brakes'. The chicken house is an important social center here!

[GB SISSON]

Thank again Pete , and Al, thanks for the story. We know life changing things can go South in a split second.and I'm thankful that me and your kid sister were spared. I picked up the T5 and it looks great so far. It is somewhat unusual as it is clearly a 'world class' version from a '93 S10. The vast majority of the WC for a '93 S10 had the ford bolt pattern as did all the T5s after '93. The early '93s like this one were a mongrel that retained the muncie type chev pattern yet are WC. The 1st gear is the 4.03:1 and that works well for me. I use the low in my T-9s and the charts say the T-9 low gear ranges from 6.5:1 all the way to 9.6:1. I understand that 99% of all flathead enthusiasts will feel that a 'granny low' is horrible and useless in a hot rod, but I wouldn't know, having never ridden in or driven anything vaguely resembling a hot rod of any sort. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, I have never ridden in or driven a CAR with a flathead V8 in it. ( I did have a photo of my brother and I in the front yard with my dad when I was about 3, and there was a '46 ford coupe in the driveway, so it is likely that I'm exagerating). The trans had nice clean red fluid in it and the seller gave me the two piece driveline, shifter/boot, mount etc, so I'm good to go. I unloaded it at 5:30 am and commenced to clean the exterior and check it out. Now it's back to my regularly scheduled 'day job'. ick.

[GB SISSON]

Well, my T-5 is ready to install so my attention turns to assembly of the 8ba. I have decided on the 8rt camshaft. Les, the machinest told me he likes the ford valves and since I have so dang many of them, I should use all exhaust valves. I set up a mic as a go-no go gauge and got what I needed. I still didn't have enough of the hat shaped cup for the bottom of the spring for 'rotator' style assemblies. I have way more than enough of the cones that hold the keepers in.
Yesterday I noticed an 8ba block with the valves still in. I could make out the cone shaped piece through the ink black sludge, identifying this as a rotator set up. I pulled two assemblies out and found the 'hat' piece was different than what I'd been collecting, but the cone was the same. The first hat pieces are much taller and heavier, and I needed 8 more of them. Using the thinner/shorter hats I have an abundance of those. Is this thinner/lighter version acceptable and not just something a PO put together? I see the thick, deep ones in Ron's 'Nostalgia' book as refered to late'52-'53 style. Here are the two styles of 'Hat and Cone' rotator keepers I have uncovered so far, and of course this new 'mother lode' of assemblies will allow me to further hi-grade my valve train. Also note that the 'derby hat' style on the left and the 'stovepipe hat' on the right result in about the same installed spring height, but I haven't done a precise measurement yet.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Well, my T-5 is ready to install so my attention turns to assembly of the 8ba. I have decided on the 8rt camshaft. Les, the machinest told me he likes the ford valves and since I have so dang many of them, I should use all exhaust valves. I set up a mic as a go-no go gauge and got what I needed. I still didn't have enough of the hat shaped cup for the bottom of the spring for 'rotator' style assemblies. I have way more than enough of the cones that hold the keepers in.
Yesterday I noticed an 8ba block with the valves still in. I could make out the cone shaped piece through the ink black sludge, identifying this as a rotator set up. I pulled two assemblies out and found the 'hat' piece was different than what I'd been collecting, but the cone was the same. The first hat pieces are much taller and heavier, and I needed 8 more of them. Using the thinner/shorter hats I have an abundance of those. Is this thinner/lighter version acceptable and not just something a PO put together? I see the thick, deep ones in Ron's 'Nostalgia' book as refered to late'52-'53 style. Here are the two styles of 'Hat and Cone' rotator keepers I have uncovered so far, and of course this new 'mother lode' of assemblies will allow me to further hi-grade my valve train. Also note that the 'derby hat' style on the left and the 'stovepipe hat' on the right result in about the same installed spring height, but I haven't done a precise measurement yet.

[flatjack9]

The ones on the left is what i am familiar with. Don't think I've ever run across the ones on the right in all of the engines I have disassembled.

[GB SISSON]

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Originally Posted by flatjack9

The ones on the left is what i am familiar with. Don't think I've ever run across the ones on the right in all of the engines I have disassembled.

Thanks Jack, That's exactly what I needed to know. I have lots of those and can now cross them off my list. Next I am looking at guides and lifters. I just ran another batch of ford lifters through a carb dip bath. They vary somewhat in height. What strikes me about the 50 or so used factory lifters I have looked at so far is the bottoms all look excellent to the eye. Light swirly pattern if any, nothing that looks like wear or a dish. They are obviously extremely hard. Tops like new also. Some scuffing on sides, but like the bottoms, just a visual. Nothing you can feel with a fingernail. My ford service repair manual says to replace them if they measure less than.998 dia or 1.710 in height. Book is from 1947. so this may have changed with 8ba.
My thought here is a carefully measured original ford part that is still in good condition is most likely a better piece than something made for the lowest price possible from unknown materials. Thoughts on checking lifters? Thanks, GB

[cadillac512]

Can you measure the lobes of your new cam to see if they are ground with any taper? I'd be interested to know, and it'll make a difference on how you proceed with lifter inspection.

[flatjack9]

Lifters did change from 1947 to 8BA.

[GB SISSON]

Thank you friends, and as usual, new questions arise.... So sometimes cam lobes are tapered to get the lifter rotating? In other words there are cams made specifically for rotator assemblies? My cam is in the block while I play with lifters etc, but will check that over the weekend. I am seeing a potential problem in that with these new seats it's hard to find enough good exhaust valves that are long enough with stems having been ground. I have some with nice thick heads that I can bring down a bit, almost like adjusting the gap from the opposite end. I will assume that my stash of 'tallest' lifters would be a mix of early and late lifters. And lastly for this morning, if I were to use intake valves for intake valves, this would add maybe 30 new candidates to my stash. Not good because of unleaded fuel?

[cadillac512]

Lots of flatheads running intake valves for intake valves and working just fine. I wouldn't hesitate.

[GB SISSON]

Thanks 312, That should help a lot. I got a chance to pull a few more valves outa the sludge pot, so I'll take count of what I have over the weekend. I guess at this point I need to know for certain what my valve lash needs to be set at. The larger later setting or the earlier? This is with the 8rt cam and rotator valves. Without knowing this I cannot choose what combination of valves and lifters can be used. Once lash is known I will be able to determine if I can adjust lash the old fashioned way or if I need to dig into my 2 sets of Johnsons. I'll do my research tonight and since I'm finally outa the damn woodshop tomorrow I can get greasy and finish measuring up all my valve gear. Edit: Having just returned from some late night measuring I am greatly encouraged by valve stem length and lifter height. .

[Mart]

Excellent progress, GB.

[flatford8]

Originally Posted by Mart

Excellent progress, GB.

Ya...no kidding...now that I’m on “retirement time”, more projects pop up than ever before....GB is making me feel like a real slacker in the Old Ford Project Dept........Mark

[GB SISSON]

Well today you guys had a chance to catch up with me. Started today mitering window stops on an entry door I'm building, then cabled up a lilac tree that has been splaying out and confounding the lawn mowing, then it was replace a couple boards in the deck.... "Ah c'mon honey, those boards still have a good couple a months left in 'em." All good, it's an hour before dinner (Mark, that's suppah) so I'm gonna go mic my newest crop of exhaust valves and lifters that I mined in the LaBrea engine valley. I'm developing a test for guides, but welcome any input with cleaning the bore and testing.

[cas3]

I can relate. Theres a Lilac planted in the wrong place here by the chief gardener, that is now a pain to mow around, and several others that have completely blocked the road for mowing. "Its Ok, I'll trim in that spot" I hear, but no, its a jungle in those areas. And...I'm having suppah now.

Back to motors, you should be able to use the pilots from your valve grinder rig to check "wiggle" with a dial indicator , and compare the results against one of your good valves to see whats wore. But, you know that...carry on

[flatford8]

Looks like it’s Lilac maintenance time on both sides of the country....and in the middle......the last storm we had broke off the branches that used to pull my hat and glasses off....got a white one that’s to tall and coming out of the ground because of the last storm also.....(back to motors)....gotta change the oil and grease the ‘50...the Maine Model A club is having their spring dust off Sat at The Bean Farm, Sanbornville NH....lots of old Fords and a good lunch.....Mark

[GB SISSON]

I took a corner brace I had, and welded an eye onto it and lagged it onto my house so I'd have something to attach the nearly horizontal lilac to. That's the steel cable up high under the eaves right next to 2014's Christmas lights....
And Skip I did not think about the variety of pilots in my seat grinder. I started this afternoon with 44 valve guides, all cleaned and reamed out real good with a stiff rifle type brush. While sliding them on and off some valves I found I had a stem with a slight bend. The guide would go about half way up the stem and stop. The tip of the valve stopped about 1/4" from coming through yhe guide. Rotating the guide, it stayed the same 1/4". I tried another cleaned guide and it stopped 3/8" from coming through. Some left 1/8", a few went neatly past the bend and up to the head. I then ran all 44 through from the opposite end of the guide with pretty much exact results. Once again rotating didn't change things. I painted the bent valve's head yellow to avoid a mixup.
With this method it was easy to arrange them in rows left to right with the least worn on the left. By process of elimination I sorted out the best 20 as keepers. The majority show 3/8"-5/16" short of coming through. . None of 'the chosen' show any wiggle that I can . Tomorrow I'll get out my pilots and run a test with the dial indicator just because I get what Skip had in mind now.....
I also now have seven more exhaust valves, guides and springs to through in the mix from the sludge mine. I'm having fun high grading my valve gear..

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

I took a corner brace I had, and welded an eye onto it and lagged it onto my house so I'd have something to attach the nearly horizontal lilac to. That's the steel cable up high under the eaves right next to 2014's Christmas lights....
And Skip I did not think about the variety of pilots in my seat grinder. I started this afternoon with 44 valve guides, all cleaned and reamed out real good with a stiff rifle type brush. While sliding them on and off some valves I found I had a stem with a slight bend. The guide would go about half way up the stem and stop. The tip of the valve stopped about 1/4" from coming through yhe guide. Rotating the guide, it stayed the same 1/4". I tried another cleaned guide and it stopped 3/8" from coming through. Some left 1/8", a few went neatly past the bend and up to the head. I then ran all 44 through from the opposite end of the guide with pretty much exact results. Once again rotating didn't change things. I painted the bent valve's head yellow to avoid a mixup.
With this method it was easy to arrange them in rows left to right with the least worn on the left. By process of elimination I sorted out the best 20 as keepers. The majority show 3/8"-5/16" short of coming through. . None of 'the chosen' show any wiggle that I can . Tomorrow I'll get out my pilots and run a test with the dial indicator just because I get what Skip had in mind now.....
I also now have seven more exhaust valves, guides and springs to through in the mix from the sludge mine. I'm having fun high grading my valve gear..

[GB SISSON]

Thank you once again Pete! In the 2nd to last photo, the group of guides on the right are the 20 semi-finalists. After the post above I went to youtube and found a couple of guys measuring stems and guides and now I see a split guide tester (very cool). I also see the dial indicator test as described by Skip.

[Bored&Stroked]

Since you're putting a new cam in the engine, you should consider having the bottoms of the lifters resurfaced as well. Pete on here can do that for you - I highly recommend having it done (is not that expensive and if it helps the cam live a longer life, it is a good thing).

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Since you're putting a new cam in the engine, you should consider having the bottoms of the lifters resurfaced as well. Pete on here can do that for you - I highly recommend having it done (is not that expensive and if it helps the cam live a longer life, it is a good thing).

This type of advice is very helpful. Thank you. I do however have a plan B and am at that fork in the road. I have sorted and chosen my valves very carefully, some would say 'obsessively'. I settled on 12 exhausts and 12 intake style so I can make a few newbie errors in grinding. I have 10 more exhaust type with good thick margins and great stems but they are too short, having stems ground in the past. I cannot imagine a lash cap short enough. The exhausts I've picked are suitable, but If I use adjustables I could then introduce the 10 shorties into the mix and use the thinner margin exhaust valves as intakes. The adjustables pictured here have had the bottom buffed on top of an old oily piece of scothchbrite and I think they look better than the solids do on the bottom. Going one step further I recall a post by fellow obsessor who used adjustables and with measuring set them up with loctite as 'semi-adjustable'. If I err on the long side I could do a light grind on the stem when needed. Sooo, any comments on the condition of these used adjustables and my plan B? If I take the other fork I will send the solids to Pete.
In closing, yes, I could just go and buy all new valve components and take all this stuff to the scrapyard as I'm planning a run next month anyhow. I coulda made a lot of dough in the woodshop and paid for the new parts twice. But do we ask the avid fisherman to tally the price of his gleaming new boat, the moorage, the fuel, insurance, bait and depreciation? Heck, this dude walks right by the fish market where salmon is a mere 20.00 lb. And besides, I love working in my new shop annex....... oops, forgot the pics, will add

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

This type of advice is very helpful. Thank you. I do however have a plan B and am at that fork in the road. I have sorted and chosen my valves very carefully, some would say 'obsessively'. I settled on 12 exhausts and 12 intake style so I can make a few newbie errors in grinding. I have 10 more exhaust type with good thick margins and great stems but they are too short, having stems ground in the past. I cannot imagine a lash cap short enough. The exhausts I've picked are suitable, but If I use adjustables I could then introduce the 10 shorties into the mix and use the thinner margin exhaust valves as intakes. The adjustables pictured here have had the bottom buffed on top of an old oily piece of scothchbrite and I think they look better than the solids do on the bottom. Going one step further I recall a post by fellow obsessor who used adjustables and with measuring set them up with loctite as 'semi-adjustable'. If I err on the long side I could do a light grind on the stem when needed. Sooo, any comments on the condition of these used adjustables and my plan B? If I take the other fork I will send the solids to Pete.
In closing, yes, I could just go and buy all new valve components and take all this stuff to the scrapyard as I'm planning a run next month anyhow. I coulda made a lot of dough in the woodshop and paid for the new parts twice. But do we ask the avid fisherman to tally the price of his gleaming new boat, the moorage, the fuel, insurance, bait and depreciation? Heck, this dude walks right by the fish market where salmon is a mere 20.00 lb. And besides, I love working in my new shop annex....... oops, forgot the pics, will add

[flatford8]

That’s a very “homey” looking spot Bud!.......no wonder you like hanging out in there.....where’s the cold beverage containment system?.........Mark

[GB SISSON]

Mark, A few years back when Mt Pickett Woodworking was in full swing with 3 employees, this 14x 28 'side shop' was used as a storage area for obsolete tooling, unused lumber and junk that was in our way in our daily grind. As we wound down to just me I decided to make it into a sort of 'machine shop' ( in quotes as I am certainly NO machinest). That was my winter project 2023-2024 as I already had 4 jailbar era trucks and building another seemed , well kinda borderline weird. Even for me.. Then it got addictive and I cleaned and organized the garage 2 bay side. Then 40 years of clutter in the woodshop. Homey is pretty important to me.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Mark, A few years back when Mt Pickett Woodworking was in full swing with 3 employees, this 14x 28 'side shop' was used as a storage area for obsolete tooling, unused lumber and junk that was in our way in our daily grind. As we wound down to just me I decided to make it into a sort of 'machine shop' ( in quotes as I am certainly NO machinest). That was my winter project 2023-2024 as I already had 4 jailbar era trucks and building another seemed , well kinda borderline weird. Even for me.. Then it got addictive and I cleaned and organized the garage 2 bay side. Then 40 years of clutter in the woodshop. Homey is pretty important to me.

Looks like a Rockwell painting...

[GB SISSON]

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Got ya workin' overtime there Pete! This afternoon I wanted to do some tests with the sets of Johnson lifters in case I take that fork. I knew there were some duds so I went through and found one that wouldn't hold 10 in/lbs and started with that.General consences is a nice tight one will hold 60 in/lbs. I pulled the cap screw and compressed it. Threaded back in it held 80 so I ran it in and out about 5 times and it holds 60. This 20" adjustable wrench must weigh at least 3 lbs and it takes the reading to 45 in/lbs. I repeated this procedure on 4 more lifters, but less oomph on the vice. If you were to do this test I think you'd agree that 40 in/lbs should be more than ample to prevent movement. Far better results than I have had with the overseas lifters. I guess I can skip the loctite.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Got ya workin' overtime there Pete! This afternoon I wanted to do some tests with the sets of Johnson lifters in case I take that fork. I knew there were some duds so I went through and found one that wouldn't hold 10 in/lbs and started with that.General consences is a nice tight one will hold 60 in/lbs. I pulled the cap screw and compressed it. Threaded back in it held 80 so I ran it in and out about 5 times and it holds 60. This 20" adjustable wrench must weigh at least 3 lbs and it takes the reading to 45 in/lbs. I repeated this procedure on 4 more lifters, but less oomph on the vice. If you were to do this test I think you'd agree that 40 in/lbs should be more than ample to prevent movement. Far better results than I have had with the overseas lifters. I guess I can skip the loctite.

[cas3]

That is one man sized wrench! I'll see that, and raise you one man sized vice grip.
I know, its brand X, but its so big it actually works. Got it at an old friends garage sale as he was in his last stretch of life from cancer. He smiled when I told him I bought it, so its a good memory too.

[flatford8]

I’ve never seen a 15” pair of vise grips !!........Gary...that is definitely a blood pressure reducing area.....you’re wife must have needed the sack of flour (or sugar) you used the last time you were conducting a scientific experiment.....keep up the good work ‘Ol Boy.....Mark

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by cas3

That is one man sized wrench! I'll see that, and raise you one man sized vice grip.
I know, its brand X, but its so big it actually works. Got it at an old friends garage sale as he was in his last stretch of life from cancer. He smiled when I told him I bought it, so its a good memory too.

[GB SISSON]

Gotta love a pair of vice grips like that! I have massaged these adjustable lifters til they hold 40-60 in/lbs. Tomorrow I will drill holes in my lifter bores with my new 12" long 3/16" bit and after that there will finally be some assembly on the horizon. Hopefully not too many more decisions to make. I found what must be an NOS aluminum 8ba cam gear. I also found quite a few oil pump drive gears and various covers. My merc crank didn't come with a gear so I gotta pull one from an 8ba crank. 3 jaw puller? I have the required half bell, oil pan with the aluminum plate (with 2 long and 2 short bolts), starter plate, and surfaced flywheel for a 10" clutch. What do I want for rod nuts? Chev type? Also need the pilot bearing for T5 swap.

[cas3]

I believe you can just flip the cover of the oil pump over, to get a new surface. Check it with some 320 grit on a flat surface, like your fancy grinder or table saw bed.

Next, use your new toy...er, I mean lathe, and put a center on the crank bolt to use a puller for the gear....carry on

[Bored&Stroked]

It is best to have an actual gear puller . . . if you use a 3-jaw you'll probably only get it onto the teeth and it is very easy to break them off. Ask me how I know such things! LOL

[GB SISSON]

Thank you gentlemen. I have a couple of 3 jaw pullers. What makes a gear puller different? Maybe I can adapt something I already have. I just ordered arp rod nuts and a pilot bearing to adapt the T5. On this aluminum cam gear I see the bolt holes have a step. Does it require a shouldered fastening?

[KiWinUS]

Yes they are a special shoulder bolt

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Yes they are a special shoulder bolt

Thanks, and this morning I looked at that gear and remembered the step was in the cam bolt holes, not the gear. I see multiple cover plates for oil pump gear in my stash. All are cast and not reversible. I also now see that the early blocks have the idler gear shaft in the cover and 8ba have a removeable shaft which is missing in my block. I see there are shafts in blocks here, but all my 8ba blocks are in stands so I will have to hoist one out to get access. Is this shaft pressed in? I see the big circlip to retain the gear. Is it a pain to get out? Oh, and the crank gear... I pulled two 8ba cranks from a chest high shelf, gasp, but both have the gear. This harvesting of parts is becoming an actual chore. I think I'll go back to my paying work in the cabinet shop where the livin' is easy and my paws stay clean.

[flatjack9]

The shaft on the 8BA is pressed in.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

The shaft on the 8BA is pressed in.

Maybe I should find someone who has that shaft instead of driving one out. I'm pretty sure I can get a new one in there. I have some monster C clamps, brass hammer etc. Anybody have a picture of what it looks like out of the block? I still might remove one if it isn't a huge deal. Are they a real bugger or a tap tap tap with a brass drift?

[KiWinUS]

Slide hammer. They are threaded.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Slide hammer. They are threaded.

Hey, sounds like a lathe project. So Skip, you still callin' that thing a 'toy'?
Great news KiWin!

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by cas3

I believe you can just flip the cover of the oil pump over, to get a new surface. Check it with some 320 grit on a flat surface, like your fancy grinder or table saw bed.

Next, use your new toy...er, I mean lathe, and put a center on the crank bolt to use a puller for the gear....carry on

Skip, I see we were talking about two different things here. The cover I was talking about is on the back of the block and your plate is on the pump itself. I still need to take apart a couple of short body pumps I found so I will need this info real soon. I went down to the shop for a half hour to do some investigating now that I know a lot more about that gear. I did find two that were accessable without taking an engine off it's stand. Looks like 3/8-16 on the thread. Hoping to be done in the woodshop by 10 am and get a good day in on the engine project. Stay tuned for more questions for the council of experts.

[cas3]

GB, all fun tools are toys

[GB SISSON]

Got some nice gears yanked out for my woodie's engine. Welded up a quick slide hammer out of junk and it worked great. Pulled 2. One beauty one, one not so much. 2 good crank gears both good came off with a 2 jaw puller that I ground a back cut on so the hooks grabbed in past the teeth. Unfortunately I had a contractor stop by about a project and then one more visitor, so no other progress. Will look around for some of those cam gear bolts this weekend and hope to get started with valves. I see it's common to lather up the cam with white lithium grease. Is stay-lube assembly lubricant good enough?

[51504bat]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Got some nice gears yanked out for my woodie's engine. Welded up a quick slide hammer out of junk and it worked great. Pulled 2. One beauty one, one not so much. 2 good crank gears both good came off with a 2 jaw puller that I ground a back cut on so the hooks grabbed in past the teeth. Unfortunately I had a contractor stop by about a project and then one more visitor, so no other progress. Will look around for some of those cam gear bolts this weekend and hope to get started with valves. I see it's common to lather up the cam with white lithium grease. Is stay-lube assembly lubricant good enough?

Over 50 years ago when I built my SBF I used STP. No issues but it was a one off type of thing that worked for a 19 year old know it all (read know nothing) kid. YRMV

[GB SISSON]

Hey, It's sticky and slippery at the same time, sounds like a good choice, but I'd still have to take the hour to drive to town in the morning to get some. I'll probably use the assembly lube on the cam bearings and if I find that the lobes need something else I can paint some on there later. I guess the same goes for installing my lifters in the bores.

[cadillac512]

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Heavy liquid assembly lube is much preferred over any type of grease, which can dry out and restrict oil if not run soon after assembling. As for cam lobes, most likely with the low pressures we see the assembly lube will be fine, but my preferred choice is a moly paste brushed on the lobes and lifter bottoms.