The Ford Barn

Rob Doe · 01-30-2022, 06:18 PM

I think you caught on to the fact that there is a 1/16th weep hole just ahead of the drain plug. Fuel leaking at the base or top of the main and/or cap jet can fool you into over tightening the drain plug and stripping its threads. Don't fall for that one.

Stick your middle finger into the carb and touch at the bottom of the jets to see if fuel is leaking there. If can reach far enough, with a dry hand, touch the jet up near the top to see if fuel is spilling over the top. If so, this would indicate a seeping float valve. I've got a pretty long middle finger.

I would hook up my plug wires and pull the coil wire from the distributor and place next to a head bolt. 1/4 inch. Car in neutral, parking brake on, key on. From the driver's side, you can push the starter switch down with your right hand and watch the fire from the coil to the head nut. Should be blue and snappy. It's better to have a friend hit the starter from inside, but I've done this alone.

Scotts216 · 01-30-2022, 06:46 PM

Yes, sneaking up on it.... It's a simple process of elimination.

I will check continuity of the coil wire and also the coil. I can't imagine that the cap and rotor have gone bad, but worth trying. We'll see how the coil and coil lead test first.

Everything seems right with the carb. I can't imagine there is a big enough air leak at the carb manifold joint to lose vacuum? I did spray starter fluid at one point and no ignition.

Thanks again for all the ideas and support. I'm a long time car guy, but not a Model A expert. The car has been in the family 50+ years.....

Gene F · 01-30-2022, 07:25 PM

Yes, it is electrical or ignition.

Step on the starter, does the amp needle go back and forth when you crank the starter over? Wiggle the key a little and operate it off and on during this operation.

nkaminar · 01-30-2022, 07:44 PM

Most likely the points need cleaning as many have said. One test is to short the points while they are open with a screw driver. You should get a spark at the end of the high tension lead from the coil. Clean the points. Use 400 grid paper folded in half. Then some paper to clean the grit from the paper.

wwirz · 01-30-2022, 07:47 PM

Remember that you have to have a measured 6V to the points. If you do not have this, it is likely the ignition switch or the wire from the ignition switch to the distributor.
Also, make sure the timing is not off. Sometimes the distributor cam moves. Make sure your timing is correct and your points are gapped at .020". If you have excessive gap, the car will not start (do not ask me how I know).
So:
. make sure you have 6V (measured with a meter) to the points
. Check the timing
. Check the point gap.
Do not rule out a bad condenser. Easily changed for piece of mind.

eagle · 01-30-2022, 11:58 PM

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Put a meter on the point side of the coil....DOES THE VOLTAGE ALTERNATE FROM BATTERY TO GROUND AS ENGINE IS SLOWLY TURNED OVER? When the points close, it grounds the coil through the ignition switch. Don't start replacing parts, you'll only make more issues. You really need to look at a wiring diagram, do a search here they have been posted many times.

Scotts216 · 01-31-2022, 01:03 AM

Lots of tests to still perform. I need to have a look at the ammeter when cranking too.
I do not think timing could have changed. If the timing was off I'd still have spark. It will be something simple when I figure it out.....

wwirz · 01-31-2022, 09:12 AM

I seemed to have read that you still do not have spark at the plugs or plug leads. Please check two things:
1. Make sure that your points gap is at .020"
2. Make sure that you have measured 6V at the points..not just lighting a 6V light bulb.

I chased a similar problem as you are having for weeks and found my point gap was too far open.
A buddy of mine had a no start condition and found he did not have 6V at the points and had to replace the ignition switch and at the same time the wire from the switch to the distributor. This caused the same issue you are having. Car parked running...then would not start.

Good luck and let us know what you have found.

Scotts216 · 01-31-2022, 10:43 AM

I do have 6V to the points. I will check points gap.

I also plan to check to see if I have spark from coil to groud with points open.

Sneaking up on the problem!

Patrick L. · 01-31-2022, 10:46 AM

Completely confused yet Scott ?

Some much duplicate info.

Once again. 6v at open points arm. 0v at closed arm.[ post #7]

Scotts216 · 01-31-2022, 02:44 PM

Yes, confusing myself.....

Yes 6v at open points

Ammeter jiggling when cranking key on

I cannot get continuity in the coil to dist wire.....

Coil tests at 1.4 ohms. Someone mentioned that it should test at 3.0 ohms? I am NOT an electrical type guy, and don't know the significance of that difference.

I had 6+ volts on the one side of the coil and .55volts on the other with key on.

Patrick L. · 01-31-2022, 06:44 PM

A 6v system should have a 1.5 ohm coil.

As far as points voltage, my question has been asked twice and not yet answered. So, just clean the points contact and try it.

Scotts216 · 01-31-2022, 06:47 PM

I cleaned the points with 400 grit, no change.

Spark looks weak. I wonder if coil is bad. The key has been left on before. Don't know if that can kill a coil? Coil wire suspect. I need to pick up a replacement.

Gene F · 01-31-2022, 06:49 PM

Did the lobe (cam) on the distributor shaft come loose? If It did, and the coil is colapsing and the spark when the compression is not present it will not start. You are right, it likely is something simple.

Synchro909 · 01-31-2022, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotts216

Yes, confusing myself.....

Yes 6v at open points

Ammeter jiggling when cranking key on

I cannot get continuity in the coil to dist wire.....

Coil tests at 1.4 ohms. Someone mentioned that it should test at 3.0 ohms? I am NOT an electrical type guy, and don't know the significance of that difference.

I had 6+ volts on the one side of the coil and .55volts on the other with key on.

I'll fess up to that. 1.5 or so ohms is correct. My bad, sorry.

wwirz · 01-31-2022, 08:39 PM

Check the points gap.

Rob Doe · 01-31-2022, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotts216

Yes, confusing myself.....

Yes 6v at open points

Ammeter jiggling when cranking key on

I cannot get continuity in the coil to dist wire.....

Coil tests at 1.4 ohms. Someone mentioned that it should test at 3.0 ohms? I am NOT an electrical type guy, and don't know the significance of that difference.

I had 6+ volts on the one side of the coil and .55volts on the other with key on.

The primary coil circuit 1.4 -1.6 is likely a good reading for a 6v battery. The .55 is likely a good reading for key on and points closed.

You have just discovered the infamous "Henry Jiggle". And I recommend that you never forget what you saw your ammeter do as you activated the starter with the key on. With a sufficiently charged battery, that jiggle is an indication that the primary ignition circuit is probably functioning properly.

Now, I would move on to the coil wire. Are you using a Volt/Ohmmeter? An ohmmeter is not a reliable testing method for the coil wire as it could indicate continuity if every strand of internal wire was broken in half but one little bitty SOB. Test the coil for a short to its case with your VOM. Your primary coil test (1.4) looks good. With the coil wire and boot removed, look for carbon tracks at the coil high tension post. Use the ohms test to check for a short from the high tension terminal to the coil case. It should show an open. OL?? Reinstall the coil wire and push it all the way up and in.

Refer back to my and others' previous posts about putting the coil wire, distributor end next to a head nut and testing for spark. Car in neutral, park brake on, key on. Safety first.

If no spark, replace coil wire with a known good one and repeat the test.

Report results.

ETAModel · 02-01-2022, 12:36 AM

My friend's Fordor sat up about 16 months, when we tried to start it it acted the same. Finally pulled the carb off, took it down and sprayed it good with carb cleaner. Not a quality re-build by any means, but one sniff of ether after mounting the carb and away she went.
My point, check to see if carb is gummed up.
Good luck

nkaminar · 02-01-2022, 06:56 AM

If the key was left on for a long time the coil can be burned out, even with the correct resistance measured. However, a week spark is usually caused by a bad condensor. Changing out the condensor is an inexpensive way to check.

Patrick L. · 02-01-2022, 07:58 AM

If you decide to try a coil and condenser, I recently went thru 5 new condensers before finding a good one. I recommend a 1.5 ohm epoxy filled coil, oil coils don't like to be tipped upside down.

01-30-2022, 06:18 PM	#21
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 490	Re: Won't Start.... I think you caught on to the fact that there is a 1/16th weep hole just ahead of the drain plug. Fuel leaking at the base or top of the main and/or cap jet can fool you into over tightening the drain plug and stripping its threads. Don't fall for that one. Stick your middle finger into the carb and touch at the bottom of the jets to see if fuel is leaking there. If can reach far enough, with a dry hand, touch the jet up near the top to see if fuel is spilling over the top. If so, this would indicate a seeping float valve. I've got a pretty long middle finger. I would hook up my plug wires and pull the coil wire from the distributor and place next to a head bolt. 1/4 inch. Car in neutral, parking brake on, key on. From the driver's side, you can push the starter switch down with your right hand and watch the fire from the coil to the head nut. Should be blue and snappy. It's better to have a friend hit the starter from inside, but I've done this alone. __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!" Last edited by Rob Doe; 01-31-2022 at 09:20 PM.

01-30-2022, 06:46 PM	#22
Scotts216 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 21	Re: Won't Start.... Yes, sneaking up on it.... It's a simple process of elimination. I will check continuity of the coil wire and also the coil. I can't imagine that the cap and rotor have gone bad, but worth trying. We'll see how the coil and coil lead test first. Everything seems right with the carb. I can't imagine there is a big enough air leak at the carb manifold joint to lose vacuum? I did spray starter fluid at one point and no ignition. Thanks again for all the ideas and support. I'm a long time car guy, but not a Model A expert. The car has been in the family 50+ years.....

01-30-2022, 07:25 PM	#23
Gene F Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,958	Re: Won't Start.... Yes, it is electrical or ignition. Step on the starter, does the amp needle go back and forth when you crank the starter over? Wiggle the key a little and operate it off and on during this operation.

01-30-2022, 07:44 PM	#24
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,899	Re: Won't Start.... Most likely the points need cleaning as many have said. One test is to short the points while they are open with a screw driver. You should get a spark at the end of the high tension lead from the coil. Clean the points. Use 400 grid paper folded in half. Then some paper to clean the grit from the paper. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

01-30-2022, 07:47 PM	#25
wwirz Senior Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Corning NY Posts: 244	Re: Won't Start.... Remember that you have to have a measured 6V to the points. If you do not have this, it is likely the ignition switch or the wire from the ignition switch to the distributor. Also, make sure the timing is not off. Sometimes the distributor cam moves. Make sure your timing is correct and your points are gapped at .020". If you have excessive gap, the car will not start (do not ask me how I know). So: . make sure you have 6V (measured with a meter) to the points . Check the timing . Check the point gap. Do not rule out a bad condenser. Easily changed for piece of mind.

01-30-2022, 11:58 PM	#26
eagle Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Eagle Bend, MN Posts: 2,025	Re: Won't Start.... Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Put a meter on the point side of the coil....DOES THE VOLTAGE ALTERNATE FROM BATTERY TO GROUND AS ENGINE IS SLOWLY TURNED OVER? When the points close, it grounds the coil through the ignition switch. Don't start replacing parts, you'll only make more issues. You really need to look at a wiring diagram, do a search here they have been posted many times. __________________ "There are some that can destroy an anvil with a teaspoon and shouldn't be allowed to touch anything resembling a tool."

01-31-2022, 01:03 AM	#27
Scotts216 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 21	Re: Won't Start.... Lots of tests to still perform. I need to have a look at the ammeter when cranking too. I do not think timing could have changed. If the timing was off I'd still have spark. It will be something simple when I figure it out.....

01-31-2022, 09:12 AM	#28
wwirz Senior Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Corning NY Posts: 244	Re: Won't Start.... I seemed to have read that you still do not have spark at the plugs or plug leads. Please check two things: 1. Make sure that your points gap is at .020" 2. Make sure that you have measured 6V at the points..not just lighting a 6V light bulb. I chased a similar problem as you are having for weeks and found my point gap was too far open. A buddy of mine had a no start condition and found he did not have 6V at the points and had to replace the ignition switch and at the same time the wire from the switch to the distributor. This caused the same issue you are having. Car parked running...then would not start. Good luck and let us know what you have found.

01-31-2022, 10:43 AM	#29
Scotts216 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 21	Re: Won't Start.... I do have 6V to the points. I will check points gap. I also plan to check to see if I have spark from coil to groud with points open. Sneaking up on the problem!

01-31-2022, 10:46 AM	#30
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Won't Start.... Completely confused yet Scott ? Some much duplicate info. Once again. 6v at open points arm. 0v at closed arm.[ post #7] Last edited by Patrick L.; 01-31-2022 at 12:23 PM.

01-31-2022, 02:44 PM	#31
Scotts216 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 21	Re: Won't Start.... Yes, confusing myself..... Yes 6v at open points Ammeter jiggling when cranking key on I cannot get continuity in the coil to dist wire..... Coil tests at 1.4 ohms. Someone mentioned that it should test at 3.0 ohms? I am NOT an electrical type guy, and don't know the significance of that difference. I had 6+ volts on the one side of the coil and .55volts on the other with key on.

01-31-2022, 06:44 PM	#32
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Won't Start.... A 6v system should have a 1.5 ohm coil. As far as points voltage, my question has been asked twice and not yet answered. So, just clean the points contact and try it.

01-31-2022, 06:47 PM	#33
Scotts216 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 21	Re: Won't Start.... I cleaned the points with 400 grit, no change. Spark looks weak. I wonder if coil is bad. The key has been left on before. Don't know if that can kill a coil? Coil wire suspect. I need to pick up a replacement.

01-31-2022, 06:49 PM	#34
Gene F Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,958	Re: Won't Start.... Did the lobe (cam) on the distributor shaft come loose? If It did, and the coil is colapsing and the spark when the compression is not present it will not start. You are right, it likely is something simple.

01-31-2022, 08:39 PM	#36
wwirz Senior Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Corning NY Posts: 244	Re: Won't Start.... Check the points gap.

02-01-2022, 12:36 AM	#38
ETAModel Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Along the Red River, Texas Posts: 360	Re: Won't Start.... My friend's Fordor sat up about 16 months, when we tried to start it it acted the same. Finally pulled the carb off, took it down and sprayed it good with carb cleaner. Not a quality re-build by any means, but one sniff of ether after mounting the carb and away she went. My point, check to see if carb is gummed up. Good luck

02-01-2022, 06:56 AM	#39
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,899	Re: Won't Start.... If the key was left on for a long time the coil can be burned out, even with the correct resistance measured. However, a week spark is usually caused by a bad condensor. Changing out the condensor is an inexpensive way to check. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

02-01-2022, 07:58 AM	#40
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Won't Start.... If you decide to try a coil and condenser, I recently went thru 5 new condensers before finding a good one. I recommend a 1.5 ohm epoxy filled coil, oil coils don't like to be tipped upside down.