The Ford Barn

History · 08-30-2022, 03:50 PM

Ok I got the oil pan off today and here are my findings,, looks like I have rod and main shims, I may have had a piece of gasket gone below rear main and the fiber timing gear is starting to come apart.

I took the pan off to see why I’m leaking so much oil at rear main and I still am not sure what I’m looking at?? Can anyone see anything obvious in the photos? Does the rope need replaced in the front seal as it was dripping now and then but not really a problem. The rod bearing seem pretty good and I saw no movement in the mains but I’m in new territory here. There wasn’t a huge amount of sludge and saw no metal. The pan gasket set I got from snyders says “THESE GASKETS ARE SELF SEALING, Use of additional sealer will damage the gaskets”. They have rubber for the rear main part. Are they ok to use? Part # A-6781-c snyders. Hoping the engine doesn’t have to come out yet but need someone with more knowledge than I to really determine where I’m at? Take a look and comment if you please. Thanks

History · 08-30-2022, 04:03 PM

Here’s a couple more, not that great but maybe you can see what you need to.

Synchro909 · 08-30-2022, 07:16 PM

I've used a sump gasket before that the seller claimed was self sealing and not to use any sealer. It was a b!tch to fit but once in place and done up, it sealed well. I had to remove the sump later and I used a dab of silicone at the 4 corners where it closes against a main bearing cap. I doubted (and till doubt) that it would "self seal" a second time. From these photos, I see what you are already aware of re the timing gear. I would suggest that be replaced PRONTO and cleanout the valve chamber, dipper tray and bottom of the sump as a minimum to remove any timing gear debris. The remains of the old gasket should be cleaned off the bottom of the block and the sump. You will need a new gasket. I see no problem with using another self sealing one. I cleaned the surfaces where the gasket seals with thinners (brake clear will do) before fitting it.
The cork sealing strip on the rear main bearing cap has been destroyed and will have to be replaced. They are usually too long and have to be trimmed and that is more easily done with the cap out of the engine. While it is out, I'd strongly suggest you fit one of the larger diameter oil return tubes to it.
I'm sure others will chime in here too. I may have overlooked something.

nkaminar · 08-30-2022, 11:13 PM

You will have to take up the bearings. This is best done with the engine out of the car and on a stand. I would drive up to help you but I am in Arizona for a few months.

Use the tin foil method, or the remove shims until tight and then add one method, or the Plastigage method. If you have any questions about this you can email me or just use the forum.

After you take off the caps, one at a time, look carefully at the journals. They should be smooth and shinny. You can mike the main journals if you take the crank out of the engine to test for taper and out of round and the rod journals can be done with the crank in the engine. Keep track of the shims and caps. If the caps are not marked, use a center punch to mark them, usually on the cam side.

Replace the timing gear with an aluminum one.

johnbuckley · 08-31-2022, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkaminar

...You will have to take up the bearings. ..

Why?

Patrick L. · 08-31-2022, 06:53 AM

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While the pan is off, its nice to check the bearing clearance. You're already 3/4 the way there.
I prefer using fresh Plastic-gauge. When checking the mains, usually just the center and rear need attention.

History · 08-31-2022, 07:07 AM

Spoke to an old SeaBee model A friend of mine last night. He told me the rear cap has to come off to check on the leak anyway, might as well do the checking you guys recommend while I’m there. Still learning and I thought I knew it all. ��. I believe my missing piece of gasket is in the bell housing in front of the flywheel, probably came off when I took the pan out. I did clean the oil pan and take the baffles out and was surprised how little sludge was in there.

Just moving the rod caps back and forth (front to back) they seem pretty good, I couldn’t get #2 “I believe” to even move. Interesting stuff!
Thank you all for the help.

Jim Brierley · 08-31-2022, 12:02 PM

Rear main leaks are often caused by too much clearance between the crank and the bearing. If using plasti-gauge put a jack under the rear of the crank to raise it against the upper half of the bearing in order to get good readings. The rear cap is a bear to seal up, there are so many possible areas to leak. Careful use of sealer will help. Good luck!

History · 08-31-2022, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Rear main leaks are often caused by too much clearance between the crank and the bearing. If using plasti-gauge put a jack under the rear of the crank to raise it against the upper half of the bearing in order to get good readings. The rear cap is a bear to seal up, there are so many possible areas to leak. Careful use of sealer will help. Good luck!

Thank you Jim, if I find too much wrong I’ll put the BB engine I have in it. Matter of fact I need your book. Would you mind pming me where to buy your book or in this thread if it’s allowed and you’re ok with it?

Thanks everyone, I’ll take photos and let you guys know what I find.

History · 08-31-2022, 04:18 PM

Here’s what I found under the rear main,,,, bearing surface has a crack in it and there were no shims left on it, thought there was but no. You can see by the photos the full amount of play on the thrust part. I think I know where this needs to go but you guys with more knowledge tell me?

Synchro909 · 08-31-2022, 06:19 PM

I can see the crack at the front thrust face of that cap. It is on its way out. As for no shims, that is not a death sentence. I have seen metal removed from the cap to close the clearance by using a flat surface and emery paper and even a sanding disc but progress slowly till the gap is right. I don't like doing it that way but I'd hate to have to count the number of times it has been done over the past 90+ years.
If it were mine, I'd take the engine out and check it from one end to the other, then make a decision on the way forward. What are the bores like? Does it need a complete rebuild? Redo the bearings in Babbit or tunnel bore the block for inserts? I am NOT a fan of inserts, even though I have several engines with them. The rear one tends to run short of oil with sustained high speed. That has been the topic of discussion here before and I've had 3 go that way till I started modifying them.
I'm sure others will wade in with advice and a lot of it will be different from mine. That's fine and it's all worth listening to. That's what the forum is for, IMO

History · 08-31-2022, 07:06 PM

Looks like two pistons are in backwards as they have splits in the side, two face drivers side, two face passenger side. This is the block that the fellow welded the freeze crack on and almost destroyed it. I was able to jb weld it and it’s not leaking atleast externally. The noises may be the timing gear that I’ve been hearing, sounded pretty sloppy but I’m not used to model a engines. I understand what you’re saying about “shortening” the cap and that may be a possibility. With the crack in the block I’m not sure I’d ever rebuild this one. Would be a wonderful time to do a Burtz engine but I can’t afford it right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I can see the crack at the front thrust face of that cap. It is on its way out. As for no shims, that is not a death sentence. I have seen metal removed from the cap to close the clearance by using a flat surface and emery paper and even a sanding disc but progress slowly till the gap is right. I don't like doing it that way but I'd hate to have to count the number of times it has been done over the past 90+ years.
If it were mine, I'd take the engine out and check it from one end to the other, then make a decision on the way forward. What are the bores like? Does it need a complete rebuild? Redo the bearings in Babbit or tunnel bore the block for inserts? I am NOT a fan of inserts, even though I have several engines with them. The rear one tends to run short of oil with sustained high speed. That has been the topic of discussion here before and I've had 3 go that way till I started modifying them.
I'm sure others will wade in with advice and a lot of it will be different from mine. That's fine and it's all worth listening to. That's what the forum is for, IMO

Synchro909 · 09-01-2022, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by History

Looks like two pistons are in backwards as they have splits in the side, two face drivers side, two face passenger side. This is the block that the fellow welded the freeze crack on and almost destroyed it. I was able to jb weld it and it’s not leaking atleast externally. The noises may be the timing gear that I’ve been hearing, sounded pretty sloppy but I’m not used to model a engines. I understand what you’re saying about “shortening” the cap and that may be a possibility. With the crack in the block I’m not sure I’d ever rebuild this one. Would be a wonderful time to do a Burtz engine but I can’t afford it right now.

I advise you do your sums. IMO, a Burtz engine is not much different price from rebuilding an old one. By the time you have bearings poured, machined, block rebored and crank shaft ground, you are at about the same as the new block which comes with a brand new crank shaft and connecting rods and is already bored. It will outlast a rebuilt original by many miles. IMO, a better proposition. All of the other bits and pieces on the engine like distributor, starter, generator, head, flywheel and clutch etc will fit on the new engine.
With your current block in the condition you describe, I suggest you think carefully and ask advice from people you know (and trust) about whether putting that much money into a block like that is a good idea.
Having one of those engines in the car would increase its value too, IMO

History · 09-01-2022, 06:34 AM

I believe at this point I’ll put the BB engine in it and run it. If that engine gives trouble and I’m sure will someday I’ll go Burtz then unless the BB engine is valuable enough that I should sell it and go straight to Burtz? I took the pan off it yesterday and am sure I see shims on all caps except the rear main and it does have a balanced crank but I’m not so sure on a fresh rebuild. Everything looks pretty good but I’ll pastigauge and see.

08-30-2022, 07:16 PM	#3
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Rear main, Timing Gear I've used a sump gasket before that the seller claimed was self sealing and not to use any sealer. It was a b!tch to fit but once in place and done up, it sealed well. I had to remove the sump later and I used a dab of silicone at the 4 corners where it closes against a main bearing cap. I doubted (and till doubt) that it would "self seal" a second time. From these photos, I see what you are already aware of re the timing gear. I would suggest that be replaced PRONTO and cleanout the valve chamber, dipper tray and bottom of the sump as a minimum to remove any timing gear debris. The remains of the old gasket should be cleaned off the bottom of the block and the sump. You will need a new gasket. I see no problem with using another self sealing one. I cleaned the surfaces where the gasket seals with thinners (brake clear will do) before fitting it. The cork sealing strip on the rear main bearing cap has been destroyed and will have to be replaced. They are usually too long and have to be trimmed and that is more easily done with the cap out of the engine. While it is out, I'd strongly suggest you fit one of the larger diameter oil return tubes to it. I'm sure others will chime in here too. I may have overlooked something. __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.

08-30-2022, 11:13 PM	#4
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Rear main, Timing Gear You will have to take up the bearings. This is best done with the engine out of the car and on a stand. I would drive up to help you but I am in Arizona for a few months. Use the tin foil method, or the remove shims until tight and then add one method, or the Plastigage method. If you have any questions about this you can email me or just use the forum. After you take off the caps, one at a time, look carefully at the journals. They should be smooth and shinny. You can mike the main journals if you take the crank out of the engine to test for taper and out of round and the rod journals can be done with the crank in the engine. Keep track of the shims and caps. If the caps are not marked, use a center punch to mark them, usually on the cam side. Replace the timing gear with an aluminum one. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

08-31-2022, 06:53 AM	#6
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Rear main, Timing Gear Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) While the pan is off, its nice to check the bearing clearance. You're already 3/4 the way there. I prefer using fresh Plastic-gauge. When checking the mains, usually just the center and rear need attention.

08-31-2022, 07:07 AM	#7
History Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: NC Mountains Posts: 689	Re: Rear main, Timing Gear Spoke to an old SeaBee model A friend of mine last night. He told me the rear cap has to come off to check on the leak anyway, might as well do the checking you guys recommend while I’m there. Still learning and I thought I knew it all. ��. I believe my missing piece of gasket is in the bell housing in front of the flywheel, probably came off when I took the pan out. I did clean the oil pan and take the baffles out and was surprised how little sludge was in there. Just moving the rod caps back and forth (front to back) they seem pretty good, I couldn’t get #2 “I believe” to even move. Interesting stuff! Thank you all for the help.

08-31-2022, 12:02 PM	#8
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,089	Re: Rear main, Timing Gear Rear main leaks are often caused by too much clearance between the crank and the bearing. If using plasti-gauge put a jack under the rear of the crank to raise it against the upper half of the bearing in order to get good readings. The rear cap is a bear to seal up, there are so many possible areas to leak. Careful use of sealer will help. Good luck!

08-31-2022, 06:19 PM	#11
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,496	Re: Rear main, Timing Gear I can see the crack at the front thrust face of that cap. It is on its way out. As for no shims, that is not a death sentence. I have seen metal removed from the cap to close the clearance by using a flat surface and emery paper and even a sanding disc but progress slowly till the gap is right. I don't like doing it that way but I'd hate to have to count the number of times it has been done over the past 90+ years. If it were mine, I'd take the engine out and check it from one end to the other, then make a decision on the way forward. What are the bores like? Does it need a complete rebuild? Redo the bearings in Babbit or tunnel bore the block for inserts? I am NOT a fan of inserts, even though I have several engines with them. The rear one tends to run short of oil with sustained high speed. That has been the topic of discussion here before and I've had 3 go that way till I started modifying them. I'm sure others will wade in with advice and a lot of it will be different from mine. That's fine and it's all worth listening to. That's what the forum is for, IMO __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.