Paul Shinns block adventure

[lotsagas4u]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqNC5w185JY&t=7s

[Phil Brown]

I think that you're supposed to check a crankshaft on V- blocks not "between centers"
Seems odd that after hearing so much good about this new motor that this pops up

[BrianH]

Have you contacted Terry Burtz for his opinion?

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

I think that you're supposed to check a crankshaft on V- blocks not "between centers"
Seems odd that after hearing so much good about this new motor that this pops up

Phil, You are correct.



We have not heard of these problems that Paul Shinn has.

If any of these problems are real, I'm sure that they would have been posted on Facebook, FordBarn, and other Ford forums.

The factory that makes the cylinder blocks has a capacity of 10,000 cylinder blocks per month and is fully automated.

If Paul had a problem, I wonder why he did not contact us because our parts are warranted to be free of defects.

I question Willie Baechler's qualifications when he complains about the dowel pins in the main caps and that the main caps cannot be shifted sideways.

I also wonder if the empty case of Corona beer in the video is a factor in the measurements.

John Lampl, our QA and Manufacturing Manager will be responding here on FordBarn to Paul Shinn's concerns.

[larrys40]

I hesitated in responding but these kind of things are sadly part of our electronic world of online information even in our small world of Model A’s. We all work hard to do good and have a good reputation at what we do.

Glad to see terry responded because there was no indication that Paul Shinn had contacted terry or John Lampe to address the issue. There are engines out there running with a good number of miles on them not to mention all the initial work Mr Burtz has done in testing and all before things got officially launched. Issues like this shouldn’t be aired on social media but sadly they are at times. That’s what happens when guys get a little too comfortable in social media. I’ve always respected Paul for his video talent and decent advise ( which a number of us give and also do on here) but this was not the way to handle it.

Hopefully things can get addressed properly and resolved. I don’t know Terry Burtz but have one of his new blocks not yet built up for my Riley 2 port and another in the works . I’m confident in his product from the other schooled folks I know around the country and am glad guys like him have invested their money and time for the betterment of the hobby and Model A world. Without them we wouldn’t be where we are with our cars.

Throwing numbers out to fix whatever they stated is somewhat reckles without addressing things with Mr Burtz and crew.
Thanks Paul for you videos but this one needs a pause and assessment going forward.
Happy Model A motoring

Larry

[daveymc29]

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This is an old shop in the foothills of California, along the level of the mining for gold and is well known and respected in their area. That said. I cannot believe they would allow their good name to be used in this way unless they had gone to Mr. Burtz first and been told to go to blazes. The beer may be a factor, the age of the machinery and how it is maintained may also come into play. Telling to me, is that this pops up now, after so many good reports of folks I know and trust and without any advance contact with Burtz and his organization. This is all new stuff, and if it running ary, they need the courtesy of a call or with the serious accusations and implications being made here, I would think a personal face to face would have been in order. None of us want to buy a block that is either unfixable or overly expensive. Terry has put his heart a soul into this and I think it behooves us to support him in any way we can, sharpshooting from afar seems to me to not be very constructive for any of us. If a problem exists, I'm sure Terry wants to know all he can so as to improve his product.
Dave Mc Arthur, Can't we all just get along?

[P.S.]

Hello, and thank you for commenting.

First off, I do not drink, and certainly do not drink beer. That was a box of parts a customer dropped off. The suggestion that a case of beer was a factor in the measurements is offensive. Maybe even a tad slanderous.

Terry- You and I spoke several times, and I interviewed you in Kerrville, and sang the praises of the project. Video is here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gZ18mFHVko

In fact, I came to your rescue when you were catching flak for having the blocks cast overseas. I went out of my way to paint you and your project in a positive light.

The video posted today was not a jab at you, the engines, nothing. It is just a real life experience where I show a problem and how I'm going to work through it with the help of a well respected machinist who runs a highly respected shop.

For the record, John Lampl is well aware of the situation not just with my blocks but also 6 of the 11 blocks the Lodi guys ordered. Out of the 11 kits, only a couple of those engines are currently running. John has been in touch with their machinist and is replacing 6 blocks and 2 cranks for them.

If this video causes people here to lose respect for me, then so be it. I'm not going to pretend problems don't exist. I have been open and real with everyone about everything, including my own health. I don't gloss over anything.

So if you or someone else takes today's video personally, that's entirely on you. To be honest, I think if you came on here and said you saw the video and were going to reach out to me and offer to replace the defective parts, that would have gotten you a LOT farther than accusing me of being a drunk.

I don't think this matter is a big deal, just another opportunity to work through a problem. You and I are both engineers, so I know how much you appreciate the same thing. If you would rather replace the parts than have me work through the problems, that is fine. However, I didn't bother you with this because I didn't consider it your problem. I planned to pay Willie to fix the problems out of my pocket and leave you alone. How do you prefer I move forward?

Since this has become such a public discussion, please respond here so everyone can see what we are made of, and show that we are still friends.

Thank you,
Paul

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Have you contacted Terry Burtz for his opinion?

See response above.

[P.S.]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

This is an old shop in the foothills of California, along the level of the mining for gold and is well known and respected in their area. That said. I cannot believe they would allow their good name to be used in this way unless they had gone to Mr. Burtz first and been told to go to blazes. The beer may be a factor, the age of the machinery and how it is maintained may also come into play. Telling to me, is that this pops up now, after so many good reports of folks I know and trust and without any advance contact with Burtz and his organization. This is all new stuff, and if it running ary, they need the courtesy of a call or with the serious accusations and implications being made here, I would think a personal face to face would have been in order. None of us want to buy a block that is either unfixable or overly expensive. Terry has put his heart a soul into this and I think it behooves us to support him in any way we can, sharpshooting from afar seems to me to not be very constructive for any of us. If a problem exists, I'm sure Terry wants to know all he can so as to improve his product.
Dave Mc Arthur, Can't we all just get along?

Dave,

You know me personally. And, you know better than this. My video was not critical of Terry, John, anyone. Just showed some problems and how we are going to work through them. You know I am an honest reporter. Nothing else. Why did you assume I was attacking Terry?

[rotorwrench]

One thing I've noticed about Mr. Shinns videos is that they tend to always leave me with unanswered questions that I was seeking for some of the projects at hand. I like a video that makes good sense in it's execution and answers the questions I had going in. I want to know how to do it right the first time.

I also dislike it when potential problems are pointed out without first giving the manufacturer or supplier any consultation or opportunity to make potentially problematic things right. We all know that there can be production problems with new products and parts so it's important to give those affected a heads up notice and let them respond before passing judgement on to the world at large. I'd sure rather hear about a product I supplied straight from the customer first instead of hearing about it on social media platforms. There is no fairness in that.

I would hope that fairness will be respected and that folks will insure quality control to the best of their ability in the future.

[jack backer]

Such a long worded defense speaks for itself, the video does too..basically a camera and an internet connection is a dangerous thing..

Merely look at the two subject, one is applying sound engineering to provide the hobby with a product, The other extracts from the hobby to feed his ego..

[wwirz]

My suggestion would be to send the questionable parts back to Terry for correlation in measurements.in fact,I would send all the parts to Terry for measurement. Something is amiss here and needs to be sorted out by the supplier. Until this is done, this remains an open issue.

[mhsprecher]

I respect both Paul and Terry. To me the biggest issue is that Paul didn't contact Terry or John about what he found. I know that these discussions can be difficult, but in my view, that would have been the appropriate way to handle this before posting that video. I think Terry is right to be miffed as it appears that he was blindsided by this.

Terry has put a lot of effort and expense into his blocks and the hobby has benefitted greatly from all the work he has done. Paul has benefitted the hobby with his informative and entertaining videos. I hope we all keep an open mind about this and keep the negative comments to a minimum. I want to buy one of the blocks and will have a conversation with John before I place an order to understand the situation better.

[Aretino]

Interested in learning if Paul has contacted Terry.

[Dino's A]

I'm sure Terry will handle this, straighten it out, and solve any
issues going forward. If I may be so bold, is to maybe have the motors re checked
before delivery to a customer? Just to make sure.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Dino's A

I'm sure Terry will handle this, straighten it out, and solve any
issues going forward. If I may be so bold, is to maybe have the motors re checked
before delivery to a customer? Just to make sure.

I believe the motors are crated at the factory, loaded into shipping containers, sent across the Pacific, unloaded, and then the crates are shipped, unopened, as freight to their destinations.

QC is supposed to happen before they leave the factory, not halfway through the delivery process. That's how all products are handled. My company buys and resells network infrastructure equipment, and we do not unbox and plug in the routers to make sure they work; neither does our distributor. The customer is supposed to invoke warranty coverage if a problem is discovered.

Several people have pointed out the importance of uncrating these shipments immediately upon receipt. (I have no opinion on whether that occurred in this case.) Checking part integrity, and removing packaging to assess for damage, is good practice.

[P.S.]

OK, took the video down. The video where I am supporting Terry (that everyone seems to have missed) from June remains up.

I just want to wash my hands of this whole experience. Anyone want to buy a couple Burtz block kits?

[JKY]

Well this went south pretty quickly. I don't come here often, except to see what stangeness gets posted by a Canadian entrepreneur with a two car museum. But this caught my eye.

I saw Paul Shinn's video. I was left wondering if 1) this is an isolated issue and 2) if the measurements were being interpreted correctly. But this quickly became a Paul Shinn bash fest. This seems to be very common on this forum with more people than Shinn.

Let me ask one question: What have any of you (except alexiskai) done to promote the Model A hobby?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by P.S.

If you read this far, thank you. I suspect very few will, and will continue to slam me without knowing anything about the situation.

Paul, your honesty and integrity should be the utmost priority for you whether you continue to be a content creator, -or just another hobbyist in the club. It appears you have sincerely tried to do this, -and I applaud, and support you in your endeavors. I have learned the truth generally does reveal itself given enough time however it has been said that People will only believe what seems believable to them. and in these threads, that is what we are seeing. In a similar situation with Terry, I have also found myself engaged in a disagreement of opinion that I honestly had no desire to ever be in, ...and as a result I also felt I was unfairly judged by Terry and others.

I think you are on the right track of being truly honest in your reporting (-no matter the findings), and by showing a solution and potential correction method(s) to take what Terry has achieved, and potentially make it better, this is a good thing. As an engine machinist myself, we are also interested in performance and motorsports with modern engines. Many people reading this likely do not realize that much of what Mr. Baechler found is not uncommon with O.E. engine blocks (i.e.: performance crate engines), ...and even aftermarket performance blocks and heads manufactured by companies such as Dart, Brodix, et/al. In today's world, as a remedy there are companies that manufacture specialized tooling for engine machine shops to use as jigs to correct these deficiencies and this create even better performance from that engine. One such company is BHJ Products, and similarly many shops have CNC machining centers that have the ability to correct these shortcomings. There is no shame in this from my perspective from yours nor Terry's product. From my perspective in this, my hope is you and Terry can both realize that working as a 'team', you likely will accomplish WAY more for the hobby by working together as a manufacturer and a content provider to find solutions rather than seemingly having to continually tender defensive responses. Again, I applaud you both for your accomplishments.

[jack backer]

How much ? Did you install the crank and torque the main caps? If the crank turns with the caps torqued I’ll make you an offer..