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08-03-2020, 01:08 PM | #1 |
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Location: West Virginia
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Renumbering question
Working on a AA truck. Engine needs rebuilt. The engine that came in the truck is not original but the numbers were machined off the block and it was re-stamped to match the original numbers and corresponds with numbers on the frame, (September 1930). I found another engine that looks like a more rebuildable core, (December 1928). If I use the ‘28 block should I have machine shop mill the old number off and re-stamp it with original frame number? I don’t want to be deceptive in any way but want it properly identified. The other thought I had was to add the original number on rebuilt motor under it’s existing number, looks like there would be room. Any thoughts?
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08-03-2020, 01:16 PM | #2 |
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Re: Renumbering question
What number is it registered with? I would keep the numbers the same if register with that number?
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08-03-2020, 01:50 PM | #3 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Stamping on the title VIN will save headaches later on. Rebuilders will normally do the stamping for you. Some may dissagree but trying to sell a Model A without the title VIN visible to an out-of-stater can be a deal breaker. Just my $.02.
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08-03-2020, 02:23 PM | #4 |
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Re: Renumbering question
I’m leaning towards stamping the 1930 original VIN number under the 1928 engine number. That way it will be obvious the engine isn’t original but original VIN will be visible.
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08-03-2020, 03:16 PM | #5 |
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Re: Renumbering question
my opinion, worth what you paid for it. I would mill it off and restamp.
If you do sell it just be honest about it. With 2 number, it just raises questions ... may never be a issue, or could on a rare occasion if a state inspection is required, and somebody is in a bad mood ..... keep it simple and eliminate possible future headaches. |
08-03-2020, 05:28 PM | #6 |
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Re: Renumbering question
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08-03-2020, 06:37 PM | #7 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Don't double stamp it.
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08-03-2020, 10:40 PM | #8 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Don’t double stamp!! It will cause problems down the road. As mentioned, restamping the engine is the correct way. My engine has a WN ———-/ number from the state, as the frame number isn’t legible.
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08-04-2020, 02:53 AM | #9 |
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Re: Renumbering question
It is illegal in every state to remove a manufacturers serial number.
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08-04-2020, 06:03 AM | #10 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Well I guess for practical purposes, the manufacturers serial number of the vehicle is the one stamped on the frame (completely invisible with body installed) and the original engine would have had the same number. So re-numbering a rebuilt engine to match original numbers would not in effect be removing a manufacturers number but restoring it?
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08-04-2020, 10:49 AM | #11 |
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Re: Renumbering question
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08-04-2020, 11:30 AM | #12 | |
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Re: Renumbering question
Quote:
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08-04-2020, 12:33 PM | #13 |
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Re: Renumbering question
There is some confusion about my previous statement so let me repeat it with a bit more detail. It is illegal to remove, deface, obscure ANY manufacturers serial number on any part of the vehicle.
Below is the law as it applies in California. All states have similar laws. VEHICLE CODE - VEH DIVISION 4. SPECIAL ANTITHEFT LAWS [10500 - 10904] ( Division 4 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. ) CHAPTER 3. Alteration or Removal of Numbers [10750 - 10752] ( Chapter 3 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. ) 10751. (a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale, receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component part thereof, from which any serial or identification number, including, but not limited to, any number used for registration purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to the vehicle or component part, in whatever manner deemed proper by the manufacturer, has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vehicle or component part has attached thereto an identification number assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer’s number. (b) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a), including a vehicle assembled with any component part which is in violation of subdivision (a), comes into the custody of a peace officer, it shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of under the conditions as provided in an order by the court having jurisdiction. No court order providing for disposition shall be issued unless the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, are provided a postseizure hearing by the court having jurisdiction within 90 days after the seizure. This subdivision shall not apply with respect to a seized vehicle or component part used as evidence in any criminal action or proceeding. Nothing in this section shall, however, preclude the return of a seized vehicle or a component part to the owner by the seizing agency following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership and, if determined necessary, upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department. (c) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer, the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, shall be notified within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure, of the date, time, and place of the hearing required in subdivision (b). The notice shall contain the information specified in subdivision (d). (d) Whenever a peace officer seizes a vehicle described in subdivision (a), the person from whom the property was seized shall be provided a notice of impoundment of the vehicle which shall serve as a receipt and contain the following information: (1) Name and address of person from whom the property was seized. (2) A statement that the vehicle seized has been impounded for investigation of a violation of Section 10751 of the California Vehicle Code and that the property will be released upon a determination that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, or upon the presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership of the vehicle or a component part, if no other person claims an interest in the property; otherwise, a hearing regarding the disposition of the vehicle shall take place in the proper court. (3) A statement that the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, will receive written notification of the date, time, and place of the hearing within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure. (4) Name and address of the law enforcement agency where evidence of ownership of the vehicle or component part may be presented. (5) A statement of the contents of Section 10751 of the Vehicle Code. (e) A hearing on the disposition of the property shall be held by the superior court within 90 days after the seizure. The hearing shall be before the court without a jury. A proceeding under this section is a limited civil case. (1) If the evidence reveals either that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed or that the number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed but satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented to the seizing agency or court, the property shall be released to the person entitled thereto. Nothing in this section precludes the return of the vehicle or a component part to a good faith purchaser following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership thereof upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department. (2) If the evidence reveals that the identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, and satisfactory evidence of ownership has not been presented, the vehicle shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of as provided by court order. (3) At the hearing, the seizing agency has the burden of establishing that the serial or identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed and that no satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented. (f) This section does not apply to a scrap metal processor engaged primarily in the acquisition, processing, and shipment of ferrous and nonferrous scrap, and who receives dismantled vehicles from licensed dismantlers, licensed junk collectors, or licensed junk dealers as scrap metal for the purpose of recycling the dismantled vehicles for their metallic content, the end product of which is the production of material for recycling and remelting purposes for steel mills, foundries, smelters, and refiners. (Amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 784, Sec. 596. Effective January 1, 2003.)
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08-04-2020, 12:43 PM | #14 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Be sure it also comes with the California Proposition 65 Warning paper work if you sell it in CA.
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08-04-2020, 02:05 PM | #15 |
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Re: Renumbering question
It's a simple issue, car has a serial number, new engine number is assigned to another car somewhere. Put correct number on new engine to make it match the car number. Engines don't have titles, cars do.
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08-04-2020, 02:32 PM | #16 |
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Re: Renumbering question
I agree with eagle, and also, don't sell it in California. Here in Nebraska, we also have to have the numbers (not the rest of the car) inspected on any car bought in another state. I asked the county sheriff who was a friend of mine what if I buy a car and the engine number doesn't match the title? He said that there was no recourse but go back to the seller and have him get me a title that matched the engine number. Did not care, or wouldn't even know if the engine number was restamped. I turned down a car I would have bought in Iowa, because the numbers didn't match, and owner flatly refused to have the title changed.
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08-04-2020, 03:19 PM | #17 |
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Re: Renumbering question
If you re-stamp the engine there should be a star before and after the number. Also the numbers are of a particular size. Make sure your engine rebuilder has a correct set of stamps and the star. Also to CYA take pictures of your old engine so that the number on the frame and engine show in the same picture.
If you do not re-stamp the engine take pictures of both engines so that the numbers of both engines and the frame are in the same shot. You might check with your DMV I have found with pictures and a reasonable explanation most DMV personnel are reasonable and understanding. If you know a state trouper you might get him/her to look at the numbers and verify them. Last edited by frank55a; 08-04-2020 at 07:04 PM. |
08-04-2020, 07:20 PM | #18 |
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Re: Renumbering question
[QUOTE=frank55a;1916747]If you re-stamp the engine there should be a star before and after the number. Also the numbers are of a particular size. Make sure your engine rebuilder has a correct set of stamps and the star. Also to CYA take pictures of your old engine so that the number on the frame and engine show in the same picture.
The engine that was in my truck did not have any stars by the re-stamped numbers, nor the AA prefix. I am not in California and not likely to be. I looked up our state code. It only has a couple paragraphs under anti-theft laws. It states pretty simply that it is illegal to alter the numbers IF it is done to intentionally misrepresent stolen property. Re-numbering a rebuilt engine to correspond with the original vehicle serial number wouldn't fall into the intentionally misrepresenting stolen property catagory I wouldn't think. Last edited by David R.; 08-04-2020 at 07:43 PM. Reason: found more information |
08-04-2020, 08:07 PM | #19 |
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Re: Renumbering question
I tore the tag off my mattress and I am still running from the law!
I shot the law, but the law won................... |
08-06-2020, 09:33 PM | #20 | |
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Re: Renumbering question
Quote:
Oldforder, please check your private messages. I sent you a couple, I just live north of you about 70 miles.
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08-06-2020, 10:01 PM | #21 |
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Re: Renumbering question
I guess it depends where you love but most dmv workers just look at numbers. If it look s ok I would think there would not be a problem.
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08-07-2020, 12:40 AM | #22 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Even if you buy a car from your state, and the seller does not say anything about the engine being re-stamped, how would you know that it had been re-stamped!
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08-07-2020, 10:44 AM | #23 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Compare the surface texture of the sorrounding block to the #/stamp area. Typically when re-stamping, teh old # is ground off causing a smoother/different texture than on the block
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08-07-2020, 11:09 AM | #24 |
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Re: Renumbering question
On our 1929 Sport Coupe that we have had for over 40 years. The engine was replaced with a rebuilt in the late 70’s. No question was asked by the engine rebuilder, he ground down the old number on rebuilt engine and re-stamped with the cars frame and original engine number.
If I did it today, I never would have let the original block out of my sight. If not the original block? Than you have to do what you have to do. Numbers should match. Enjoy. |
08-07-2020, 07:00 PM | #25 |
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Re: Renumbering question
I would post a picture but don’t know how to re size them. The serial number boss on the motor out of my truck has machine marks still visible where original numbers were removed.
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08-07-2020, 10:42 PM | #26 |
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Re: Renumbering question
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08-15-2020, 06:04 AM | #27 |
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Re: Renumbering question
from the amount of As I have personally owned Terry- I figure it to be about 1 in 4 that has a truly original engine. just my take.........
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08-15-2020, 09:46 AM | #28 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Working with the government, is normally a pain in the ass! Renumbering the block is about the only thing that you can do. If the number on the engine matches the paper work, then the car will be registered...if not...many strange things can happen. I purchased a rebuilt engine for my first A in about 1964. The builder put my original engine number on the rebuilt engine and my old engine received the original number that was on the rebuilt block. It would have taken a pretty good Model A person to figure out what had been done. Since the engines are about the same it is a moot point driven by the need to register the car with DMV people who are 'C' students on their very best day! Ernie in Arizona
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08-15-2020, 09:47 AM | #29 |
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Re: Renumbering question
The number on the title for my 1931 coupe matches the numbers on the engine and frame but the numbers on the engine and frame, while the same number, do not quite match each other. The engine turned out to be a 1937 diamond and is stamped with the newer 1,6 and 9 but the frame has the original numers 1, 6 and 9. One of those times when matching numbers don't quite match.
Last edited by MickeyT; 08-15-2020 at 12:19 PM. |
08-15-2020, 10:52 AM | #30 |
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Re: Renumbering question
Most re-numbered blocks were done by milling off the old number and stamping on the new number. The milling leaves a "milled" surface which is a dead give away that the number has been altered. The original surface was a rough casting surface due to the sand mold. It almost looks like someone took a ball peen hammer or needle gun to rough up the surface. But that would have to have been done before the stamping because the hammer or gun would obliterate the number.
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08-15-2020, 05:07 PM | #31 |
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Re: Renumbering question
If you do re-stamp make sure that when you strike the stamp with the hammer hit it good and solid. Trying to get the stamp lined up just right to finish a number that wasn't struck hard enough the first time is not an easy thing to do.
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Dave / Lincoln Nebraska Last edited by 1crosscut; 08-15-2020 at 08:44 PM. |
08-15-2020, 05:23 PM | #32 | |
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Re: Renumbering question
Quote:
It really isn't hard to do if you prepare for it. We fabricated a jig out of angle iron that bolts to the water inlet and provides a level platform for the stamp(s) to set on before being struck with a hammer. For those that are struggling with a milled or ground texture on the pad, Harbor Freight (-and others) sell an air powered Needle Scaler that will reinstall the texture prior to stamping. The perimeter of the pad needs to be protected so the needles do not jump off of the pad, but the cast surface can be replicated in just a few moments with one of those tools. A hint for the tool though, you likely will want to dull some of the needle points for an accurate appearing finish. After awhile, mine has kinda dulled itself. |
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