Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Not sure we're keeping in mind the complexity of a flathead block compared to a modern block. If it was all that easy the folks that already have the drawings, the molds and the proto-type engines would be producing them.

I hear that!!! But I think that most who have started such projects go into it thinking in traditional methods of casting instead of pursuing non traditional means. What I mean by that is that there are up and coming processes and technologies that would make pouring the castings cake walk for limited production runs, but unfortunately come with a cost. Its just a matter of time for those costs to come down. Technology is constantly evolving, my biggest hang up with some of my lost pla casting work has all ways been the materials.
Still there is the cost of machining.....Blah...

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

To make a lost waxmold the size of a flathead block and get all out of it isn´t easy...
3D printing it in PLA and then heating it up enough to make it burn up is more likely to work.
Cores are made differently and chemicals are added to make it cure and be tuffer then the rest of the mold and you use steel wire to keep it in place.
How do you hang the cores in a lost waxmold ??
Its not as easy as it can look at first sight.

With core wires or remove the sleeves. Ive been staring at this 3d printed block for a couple months thinking about it. Time i GOT OFF MY BUTT AND POURED IT...

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by aonemarine

With core wires or remove the sleeves. Ive been staring at this 3d printed block for a couple months thinking about it. Time i GOT OFF MY BUTT AND POURED IT...

You have a complete block done already with compensation for shrinking and all ?
If so youre on my list of heroes...thats a lot ot work !

[aonemarine]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

You have a complete block done already with compensation for shrinking and all ?
If so youre on my list of heroes...thats a lot ot work !

Not mine, its Flat32's. Had to up size alot of my equipment to be able to do it.
New flasks, vacuum chamber for the investment and new vacuum assist chamber for pouring the casting. Got it all together now but have a back log of other casting projects that Im trying to finish up. Still though I expect the casting to be a failure using the current materials. But you never know I may get lucky
Oh yea, its a model not full sized Im experimenting with every new printing filament that has come about. If its not one problem its another. But I enjoy it.

[V8COOPMAN]

Then again, there's Tod Buttermore over on the "Model A" forum that actually does cast and machine his own Cleveland and Model A blocks, etc.....just sayin' that it can be done! Click the link. DD

http://351cleveland.wikifoundry.com/...ttermore+Block

[aonemarine]

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pretty impressive casting...

[JSeery]

[QUOTE=V8COOPMAN;1312676]Then again, there's Tod Buttermore over on the "Model A" forum that actually does cast and machine his own Cleveland and Model A blocks, etc.....just sayin' that it can be done! Click the link. DD

Don't disagree one bit, you can purchase almost any modern block in aluminum, but they are not flathead v8s!

[aonemarine]

Here is the question...
How much would you be willing to spend on a brand new fully machined flathead V8 ??

[rotorwrench]

Nobody will ever poor as many as FoMoCo did but if the rapid prototyping equipment gets good enough, it may be possible to do affordable low scale production. The old timers made the initial positive blanks out of wood & glue to get something to make the reverse negative molds with. Casting sand feels like clay when you work with it. The sand is very fine and the resin binder holds it together well. FoMoCo used a wire that was soft like baling wire to tie the different cores in the right place so the wire would meld in with the iron during the poor. The core box has to be designed to hold the outer shells just right so the core shift is kept to a minimum.

Rapid prototyping can 3D measure a part from hand made core positives and 3D printing can help some with resizing of positives to get something to make a good quality negative core mold out of. It definitely could speed things up a bit but I don't think it will help with the initial measurement of the inside cavities to make the 3D positives. Core molds are made about the same way that the final product is and they have to be made so that the sand cores can be removed easily without breaking them up. This is not an easy task. It would be a lot easier if someone had the original core molds and core assembly box. No one will give this kind of stuff up unless they get paid for it. Lots of hours go into this kind of stuff.

There are some liquid rubber materials a person could plug and fill cavities with but the block would have to be cut apart to get them out. They might be too flexible to work with after retrieval but it might work. If Ford did it, it can be done again but its not as easy as an overhead valve block. The valve pockets and exhaust runners make sure of that.

[Bassman/NZ]

Not relevant, but back in the 80s, an Australian dragracer built a block for a hemi out of steel plate. He made a heat treating box out of an old oil drum. I remember reading about it and seeing the pics in an Aussie hotrod magazine.

[JWL]

The Kirby aluminum Flathead block was not like our Ford blocks except it was a Flathead. Making a Flathead block would be a VERY difficult (expensive) project for ANY company. It would only be easy on television.

[Bored&Stroked]

I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Kirby aluminum block - didn't like the weird sleeve setup at all. I imagine they had some real issues trying to get it from "one off prototype" to anywhere near production - with the right tooling, fixturing, CNC programs, etc.. I can't imagine it ever being "cost effective" to do - has to be a complete labor of love where the amount of time invested comes from individuals with a passion and probably not a viable "new product introduction business plan". I've made a lot of those plans and spreadsheets - the numbers tell the story and they probably wouldn't be good in this case. BUT, when one has a lot of time, knowledge, computer software, skills AND relentless passion . . . things can get done! Go Ray . . . Go!

[Henry Floored]

One could simplify the casting a bit to make the job easier. How about eliminating those removable valve guides for one? I am assuming that they were done that way originally for the high volume production machinery to have access to machine the lifter bores. They cured that problem in the Lincoln 337's I believe.

[Henry Floored]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Kirby aluminum block - didn't like the weird sleeve setup at all. I imagine they had some real issues trying to get it from "one off prototype" to anywhere near production - with the right tooling, fixturing, CNC programs, etc.. I can't imagine it ever being "cost effective" to do - has to be a complete labor of love where the amount of time invested comes from individuals with a passion and probably not a viable "new product introduction business plan". I've made a lot of those plans and spreadsheets - the numbers tell the story and they probably wouldn't be good in this case. BUT, when one has a lot of time, knowledge, computer software, skills AND relentless passion . . . things can get done! Go Ray . . . Go!

.......and yet unusual stuff gets made every day.

I think this should be a co-op with Ford themselves. For gosh sakes Ford is a leader in large casting technology.

If there is any engine that could use some updates it is the Ford Flathead. There are tons of Flatty's going together every year.

If Kirby's project didn't pan out the way he hoped at least he showed us the benefit of an improved design.

Do you all realize for example that Kirby was able to squeeze in a 3.5" bore by reducing the head bolt size, which gave him room for the bore periphery?

We discussed that one time and he felt that the original headbolts in the Ford were too large and unyielding. Instead of stretching to provide clamping force they warped the decks. I agree 100% with him. I would bet money that a longer "torque to yield" bolt of smaller diameter in a blind hole would be a vast improvement and make more room for a bigger bore at the same time.

[19Fordy]

Yes, EDELBROCK could cast a new and improved flatty, but the cost and market
won't justify it.

[JSeery]

Read an article on boat motor production a few years back. Ford claimed that they could produce all of the boat engines required for a year in just a few hours of production time and they didn't consider it worth the effort to change the production lines for that short of run. Considering how many boat engines are required in a year you can imagine how disruptive it would be to attempt to turn out flathead blocks/engines. It is my guess that no one if going to be willing to invest the time - effort - money required to produce such a complicated block for such a small market.

[miller91]

http://www.donovanengines.com/donovan-model-d-block/

http://www.donovanengines.com/wp-con.../05/ModelD.pdf

Donovan makes the "D" block and accessories, an alloy knock-off of the A/B four. Of course a relatively much simpler casting than the tortuous 8 with the exhaust passages, etc. Anything can be done...but it's cost. The Donovan D is upwards of 10,000 dollars. A flathead V-8 would be easily double at this quality. Many damaged blocks may be saved, so even if you spent tons of money stitch welding an 8, it would still beat the French flatheads, never mind a CAD/modern cast project like the D. I think people write off too many salvageable blocks personally. These V-8's breed a level of passion bordering on fanaticism, which I feel myself. So be good to them, and explore block repair...and don't expect a whooped out, blown stroker tuned within an inch of it's life to last forever. I love a full race flatty, but...a grenade comes to mind.

[J Witt]

Interesting to read all the different takes on making new flatheads. My feeling about this is that such a project is quite interesting and would be fun to do.

When you got to the end though, what you would have is not a flathead engine like we know and love. You won't find anyone putting one in a show car for judging. If you want to improve the flathead, just go straight to a fuel injected Cosworth Ford DFV.

Another answer to the problem is to put in a cheap modern engine with roughly the same torque and horsepower (or more!) as the street rod guys do. Put your old flattie in a box and preserve it and sell it with the car. I essentially did this with my 1912 Model T which was powered by a 1921 engine with a generator and electric start. Sold it complete with a rebuildable 1912 engine.

I want my '36 to be as near original as I can keep it to have the feel, sound and "flavor" of the original. In that light, I'm rebuilding the original engine. If it turns out to have a cracked block or some other major disaster, a small block V8 will go in there in a New York minute.

John

[tubman]

I don't think this will ever happen. Unless you substantially change the design of the new block to the extent that current speed equipment (heads, carbs, cams, and ignitions) will no longer fit, there will still be the same limitations of potential power output that exist with stock blocks. Sure, another 5 or 10% MAY be able to be picked up with better port design, larger bore, etc. but 300 hp (normally aspirated) will probably be still be out of reach for all but the very well heeled. The cost/benefit is just not there.

Plus, in the long term, I believe there is no shortage of good stock blocks. If the things I see posted on these forums are any indication, I'll bet there are thousands of guys out there that have multiple good blocks stashed away (I have four). I'm 74 and will never get around to using them. After my generation is gone in 10 to 20 years, there will probably be an oversupply.

[19Fordy]

Mr. tubman, I believe you are correct about blocks being "stashed" away.
There are car folks out there who have collected many parts they know they will never use. Someday, they will become available.